My new approach to making a neutral

[bcboyz86]

Have you thought of using a different yeast, like Ec-1118 or something like that instead of bakers yeast? Just to get a higher alcohol ABV off the bat. Or do ya suppose the off flavors would be a little too much because it isnt bakers yeast? I was playing around with some different sugar washes to make neutral out of for infusions and different recipies too. This seems like next on my to-do list... Did you, or are you planning on charcoal filtering it also, just to give it that polished off last touch, or did it come off pretty good as is?

[Odin]

I think ec 118 is agreat addition to the recepee, but wanted too start it up as easy as possible. O, read gypsum where iwrite about calcium sulphate. It is the same.

And yes, it is good as is. No need to carbon filter.

Odin

[Titus-a-fishus]

Hey Odin

Have you thought of adding the sugar in batches?

IE: Don't put all the sugar in at the beginning.
Half at the beginning and when the ferment is 3/4 done, add the other half.

Reason for this is to not stress the yeast.

Just a thought.
Have seen/read of this being done somewhere.

TAF

[frozenthunderbolt]

Also I haven't got the vitamins, I'm going to use DAP, you think there will be a difference flavour-wise, it's such a small amount?

The DAP (Di-ammonium ornophosphate) can replace the boiled yeast as a source of nitrogen.
It wont replace the multivitamins

[elektrosport]

FT:
Thanks, I just checked. It's got added Bs. In reality it's a wine nutrient containing DAP.

Cheers,
ES

[Odin]

Taf,

Adding sugar in steps might help. Not sure, since i never tried it.

Odin

[bcboyz86]

So would you make a simple syrup with maybe a gallon of water and all 10lbs of sugar and lemon juice? Then use half, and in a few days add half of what's left, then when it slows again add the rest? Seems simple, but I suppose I would wanna weigh the pros and cons of doing it this way too... Like would it be faster/easier to do two 8% washes then one 14% wash...

[wineboxwilly]

So what is the official recipe as it stands now? With the backset?

[bellybuster]

I've been following this one Odin and have a thought.... Way back a few years on a beer forum several of us did experiments with yeast. The norm was to oxygenate the entire wort for yeast growth. The thinking was that we were in fact oxidizing the wort in the process, possibly causing off flavours in the final product.
What we came up with was to only oxygenate the starter, with a starter large enough and enough yeast the growth phase can take part in the starter instead of the entire wort. The results were unanomous that the beers were cleaner and crisper tasting. There were at least a dozen participants and all agreed. I have made this my "process" since (usually). I will make a 2 litre starter stepped up from smaller amounts over a few days.
All also agreed that the early smells from the fermenter were either reduced or gone entirely making us believe the sulphur and other not so pleasant smells were created during reproduction and not from fermentation.

something to chew on..

[bcboyz86]

So toss in the yeast and some sugar water in a 2L bottle, and shake it up a bunch? Take The cap off and let it set for a bit and do it again? Or use a storing rod on a drill type device?

[bellybuster]

The bottle method works, you just need to build it up volume wise slowly. Stir plates do all the work for you but they are added expense.

Was just thinkin this might be added value in the search for a perfectly neutral neutral Oxidizing the entire wort volume is not necessary if you have a large healthy yeast to start with.

[Brendan]

Have you tried a Tomato Paste Wash Odin?

I haven't found a better neutral neutral than that one, and I am a big fan of the All-Bran vodka

I use DAP as well as a teaspoon of boiled yeast in each 30L fermenter...I dont think it gets muh cleaner...basically tasteless and odourless and feels very 'thin'...doesnt have that more velvety mouth feel of the All-Bran recipe...

[Odin]

I love all bran vodka! The fact it has some residual taste or mouth feel make it a great vodka. I don't like tomato paste wash. Tried it and ... well, it tastes "dead" to me. Not neutral, not nice. That's why I started this venture: with the aim of making a neutral (not a vodka) more to my liking than tomato paste wash.

Official recipe? I will try to give an update later this week, since I have another generation finished and ready to still ...

Odin.

[frozenthunderbolt]

Watching with interest Odin. I've got 100L of BW with a 8.8% target rock and rolling now, but i would be interested in an alternative as i too am not perfectly satisfied with it (though it is an exceptional beginner recipie for a quick and fairly clean ferment)

[F6Hawk]

Have you tried a Tomato Paste Wash Odin?

I haven't found a better neutral neutral than that one, and I am a big fan of the All-Bran vodka

I use DAP as well as a teaspoon of boiled yeast in each 30L fermenter...I dont think it gets muh cleaner...basically tasteless and odourless and feels very 'thin'...doesnt have that more velvety mouth feel of the All-Bran recipe...

I'm curious why you choose DAP over a more common 10-10-10 fertilizer? In most places, I see DAP is more expensive. Just wondered...

[rad14701]

Have you tried a Tomato Paste Wash Odin?

I haven't found a better neutral neutral than that one, and I am a big fan of the All-Bran vodka

I use DAP as well as a teaspoon of boiled yeast in each 30L fermenter...I dont think it gets muh cleaner...basically tasteless and odourless and feels very 'thin'...doesnt have that more velvety mouth feel of the All-Bran recipe...

I'm curious why you choose DAP over a more common 10-10-10 fertilizer? In most places, I see DAP is more expensive. Just wondered...

Some folks throw a hissy fit over fertilizer because they have never bothered to do any research about it... That said, all fertilizers are not created equal... You need to check the MSDS and know how to interpret it rather than using just any fertilizer... I have used 20-20-20 and currently use 30-10-10, but I do plenty of research before switching from one brand and mix to another... The worst that can happen with the fertilizer I use is that drinking too much fermented wash instead of distilling can give you the shits... When in doubt, stick with DAP because the research has been done for you...

[elektrosport]

I use DAP (or yeast nutrient for wine making) because I can not go out and buy 20-20-20 as a "civillian", you need a farmer's liscense here to be able to buy this.

And since I don't possess that, otherwise valuable, gene that allows me to drive up to any old stranger with a six-pack asking for a minor favor, I just go about it in different ways.


Cheers,
ES

[CCDL]

Odin, I am on my second round with this recipe, really liked how the first came out. Now this is about my 14th ferment so I am no way an expert but I am very suprised by this try, I mixed 12 lbs of sugar in two gal of boiling water let it cool and added 3 Complete multivitamins and some DAP because I was going to do a six gallon mix. I pulled a freshly sanitized carboy and added my wash filled it three quarters full with a high pressure water hose (it aereates it really well) pitched my bakers yeast and filled my carboy, same as always. I let it stand for bout half an hour and when I came back to check the SG and the damn thing had puked out what I thought was most of the yeasties. I cleaned it up and put the airlock on expecting the worst and now an hour later I have the most furious ferment I have ever seen, the airlock is full of wash and the top is scummed up and it is almost a steady air flow. Investigating I noticed I had used a 5 gal carboy not a six so I know all my ingreidient contents are high. Am I now up the creek and if so how far?

[Odin]

"Up the creek" is out of my league. Not an English speakin' native, so I do not understand what you mean. Maybe you added not enough water? That would only mean your fermenter is very full. And the sugar content is too high for normal baker's yeast. No problem. Let her ferment dry. Or as dry as possible. Then run the wash. Even when it has some sugar in it. use backset from gen I (20%) in gen 2. No DAP needed. Do add the vits though.

Good luck. Thanks for the write up.

Odin.

[CCDL]

Thanks for the reply, I was making a polite reference to being " up shytes creek without a paddle " an American thing, kinda means screwed. I never seen one take off that fast, maybe a bit too much water in the carboy, Puked up a nasty brown mess. It has calmed down to a more sedate three bubbles a second, much like the first time around. I have never saved the backset from a neutral, never thought of it. Would you want to save some of the lees. Thats why I like your posts, you have a very diffrent way of looking at things.

[Odin]

In this recipe there is hardly any lees. Save some backset, since it will lower PH on the next run. And introduce proteins for yeast growth and health.

Nice to read I have a different take on things. But to be fair: most of it I somehow learned on HD. Or at least, that's where I got most of my inspiration. Reading and reading again. Doing it, doing it differently. And then some more reading.

Thanks anyhow.

Odin.

[DaveZ]

If you're worried about the ABV being too high at the end of the ferment, you could probably add some water to the fermenter now that it's all settled down, give yourself a bit more volume.

[Odin]

+1 Dave!

[CCDL]

I think I was just a little to full to begin with, hence the mess.

[waylyn]

Hi Odin hows the neutral going, and have you tried it for gin recipe? sorry if you have posted the answer already but i'm using someones pc at the mo as mine is out of commission and I only have use of it briefly

[Odin]

Hi Waylin,

I will give an update soon!

Still working on a few things.

Regards, Odin.

[waylyn]

Cheers, cant wait to give it a go

[bcboyz86]

I've had some great luck with white sugar, some lemon juice and champaign yeast. The lemon juice converts the white sugar back into fermentable sugars and since it's a sugar base and not a grain base it has a sweet feel in the mouth, but not really any sweet flavor to it. It's probably my favorite neutral next to running my rum feints ....

[BoisBlancBoy]

Odin, did you ever come up with an "official recipe"? Just read this whole thread and found it very interesting. Like you I want to have the cleanest neutral neutral you could make because I really enjoy making, infusing, etc with the spirits I have so far made. Along with the fact I am in the process of building a Boka and would like to give this recipe a shot.

[Odin]

Hi B,

No, there is no official recipe yet. I think I will do some more experimentation in a few month and I will try to draw it up. Until that time ... please try it out and let us know what you think!

To all,

The problem I encounter is the following: it takes too long to ferment. Five weeks is too much. Given the amounts of nutrients, the amount of sugar, etc. it should ferment dry in 2, maximum three weeks.

So, yes, the recipe is progressing. I'd advice one of those 30 liter fermenters as a basis (fully scalable), to get you somewhere between 25 and 27 liters of wash. Easy approach: use 25 liters of 28 degrees of water, then stir in the 4.5 kilo's of sugar. Should get you to 27 liters and around 24 degrees C. The bigger amount of water (25 instead of 20 liters) will decrease the abv to around 10%, putting less stress on the yeast. Two multivits and one b-vit will be fine.

Bakers yeast works great, but my tests show that Champagne yeast will do a slightly better job.

Use some cooked up yeast and lemon juice on generation one. On generation two, you don't need that. Instead, use 3 liters of backset and only 22 liters of water. The backset of generation 1 is the best, so store/freeze as much as you can. Why it is better than the backset of generation 2 and further? Yes, I know, it sounds contrary to what we learn from UJSSM, but UJ is about taste, this one is not.

In both cases, there is a tendency of higher bp alcs to stay (in relatively bigger quantities) in the backset. The accumulate over the generations. And that we do not want in a neutral. That's why storing early generations of backset in this recipe is worh your while.

Another tip to improve neutrality, using a semi-sour wash approach as suggested above, is not to stop collecting when hearts are done. Make that cut for hearts, dilute it, give it some rest for your perfect neutral ... but continue to take tails as long as you can. The more higher bp alcs you take out, the less of them remain in the backset you use to start up the next generation.

On distilling. In a potstill, two runs is enough for infustions. For snow flake vodka, I'd advice three runs. The first strip run gives you low wines of around 35%. Dilute to 30% and run again, making cuts. Dilute the result to 30% again and perform run number 3. A very small cut for heads may be needed.

With a reflux two runs will be enough. One to strip, another one for cuts.

But ... there still is that "but". The recipe is great this way, but too slow. My gut feeling was that there is something in them pils that hampers the fermentation process. I had the same with all bran. And with pils containing resveratrol. They all slowed down. My guess? There are certain preservatives in there to keep the pils "good" for a prolongued period of time. Those preservatives, preserve the pils from getting infected by bacteria, yeast, etc.

I took a test and added the vitamin pils to my normal rye bread fermentation as well. That's an 8.5% abv recipe that usually ferments dry in about a week to 10 days. When I added the pils, fermentation time went up to 4 weeks ...

So in a sence the recipe is ready. Yet, there is still one hurdle to jump: those fermentation times.

Can any of you in the States try out this recipe, using the pils you have over there (water solluble multi- and b-vits)? And inform me about fermentation time? I know "your" all bran ferments out much faster than mine, maybe the same holds true for the pils you use.

Odin.