Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

[woodsmoke]

Hi everyone,

Only my second post here, and I'm sorry to be resurrecting an old thread, but I've been struck by the similarities between the dislike you guys have of ludicrous laws & taxes that we here in the UK are crippled by...........

I've only very recently discovered the delights of home distilling, but the process absolutely fascinates me almost to the point of enthrallment.

The irony to me is, that while careful & responsible home-distillation of ethanol can produce a very fine end product, the process is deemed illegal & all sorts of scientifically-flawed rubbish is touted as the reason why we need to be 'protected' from ourselves........'methanol', 'aldehydes', explosions, etc........I wonder why this has become a concern over the years when back in the day even your own George Washington issued troops a ration originating from his own still, I believe? Just another revenue stream that's jealously guarded by those who have wars to pay for, I wonder?

Progress thus far though (and I'm firmly still just a 'rookie', as you guys would term it), has shown me that the end product is a serious step up from what Mr Smirnoff, et al can produce.

Wonder if I could send him a sample of how it should be, & put a compensation claim in for all the unnecessary suffering he's caused me?

[bentstick]

That is why I practice this hobby, I am tiered of following the herd on what is " good, great " drink according to the masses. I have never been one to conform to everyone elses ideologue of what is " NORMAL" Just call me AB for short.

[Resasi]

Having spent about 23 yrs in Saudi I found this activity to be a fascinating hobby and a point of pride to be able to produce premium wines beers lagers spirits and liqueurs that one's friends enjoyed and trusted.

There were of course many who made to sell. These varied in quality and generally followed the old axiom you get what you pay for, and more often than not you didn't even get that. They also were actively hunted by the authorities who pretty well knew that almost 99% of the expatriates in the country made their own booze. Point was they left you alone IF you didn't sell, kept it at home, or within the compound and didn't go around town in an inebriated state.

I would have to believe the same of most authorities. When the activity goes over the boundaries of being a simple home hobby, or a bottle or two to some friends, then as the title says, someone somewhere will let it be known, and they will trace it back to where it is coming from.

[Samohon]

Correct... Hence the title of the thread, 'If you sell Counterfeit Spirits you will be caught'...

Dont sell and Dont tell... Fly well below the radar and you should be OK... at least for today...

[thumper50]

It's ashame you can't get a 10 gal. leeway for distilled spirits in the US! Even if you had to register, it would be a simple and a way for the government to monitor the system.
My daddy sold illegal liquor and his daddy did too. I have another profession to make money with but i love to carry on the tradition of making it( in small amounts) .

I've spoke to a few revinuers and they told me they will look the other way if the still is a home use only, but don't quote him on that ; ) they can get you if they want to.

Keep the tradition alive and legal.

[whiskeystill]

Fake vodka is being sold in the UK and authorities there give out specific signs so consumers would know if a spirit is counterfeit - these could also apply anywhere else:

1 It's cheap
If the price of vodka is too good to be true, it's probably fake.

2 It has high levels of methanol
Usually, one needs to open a bottle to definitively know if a spirit is fake. Methanol quantity is determined through testing.

3 Incorrect duty stamp
Sometimes, the labels on counterfeit bottles copy the original label and have spelling mistakes and missing information. Also, the trademark information is wrong.

4 It's being sold in a van

Counterfeit spirits are being sold by a 'man in the van' who knocks on doors and offers alcohol at extremely cheap prices. Consumers are being advised to stick to buying alcohol in established stores and wholesalers.

[midwest shinner]

Although I definitely don't agree with the gov't on a good number of things(the high taxes on alcohol and cigarettes to name a couple) it sucks that people can't just enjoy the craft and make some drinks for themselves, they've got to make it about the money. Its a sad state of affairs...

[nondrinker]

The first hyperlink in the letter is not valid. I think I found the same information in the following link. It is mildly interesting but in a scientifically sterile format.

http://photon.st-and.ac.uk/manipulation ... shok_3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[seaguy]

Any of yall been in a liquor store lately? I was over in Charleston and I was amazed at all the legal moonshine for sale. Even had different fruit flavors added to them. I wonder if these stupid "Shiner" reality tv shows got that started. Jesus H. Anything to make a dang buck

[chrisc69]

in all honesty i would be buying the illegal stuff if i didnt make it
but im in australia if i go to the pup i pay $5 for a pot of beer
$12 for basic spirits jim beam jd etc

some places charge $15 i acctually am out dated on price though as if i go out i drink beer and like anyone we have many pre drinks before hitting the town

if australia eased up on taxes a bit like cut 50% off them or better yet went to same tax amount as america it would be less attractive to buy the bootleg stuff for those that don't think of making it for them selves

mind you i will say this i do not condone selling bootleg stuff if a friend asks me to sell him a bottle i just say grab me a bag of corn or fill my gas bottle and you can have a bottle but to me that is a trading and even then i feel wrong offering that to them but how i see it they just helping me replenish what they take

[gary.angie]

I wont sell Mine , it takes me so long to make it ,

The purchasing of molasses , or sugar , and all the liitle bits that go with it , propane etc
Then the time in mashing , fermenting , cleaning ( oh the cleaning ) then strip runs , the final runs , oaking aging .
It adds up to a lot of hours work and love.

Id could never sell it , its to precious ( Its my precious it is, it loves me ) ha ha.

Sorry got carried away ,

Any way im all for no sales. ( teach a man to fish , i say)


G & A

[Bugly]

Any of yall been in a liquor store lately? I was over in Charleston and I was amazed at all the legal moonshine for sale. Even had different fruit flavors added to them. I wonder if these stupid "Shiner" reality tv shows got that started. Jesus H. Anything to make a dang buck

True story, there. And the "moonshine" being sold in the legal stores tastes like what you would imagine the liquid running down a hobo's hindquarters on a hot day would taste like. Pure swill, and they pretty it up with fruit.
My home brew is tasty and clean, my friends enjoy a sip here and there, and I'm more than happy to pass the jug around any time in the spirit (sic) of sharing. I make home brew, not money, and I always have happy friends.
Funny thing, my home made hooch can get you well into the realm of intoxication, yet its clean enough that my friends never complain of hangovers or get into fights. Funny thing, I wonder if the stuff they're looking for with their fancy machine is an additive that causes all that turmoil?
Pure poison if the gooberment gets into it, look how well they've managed our retirements!

[blind drunk]

Sounds like I restaurant I used to work in, many moons ago -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23525891" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Kravenhed]

yall see that bout virginia. cheap made in 800 gal outfits.
pull that article an read it. ha ha

harry the mob is involved an has been for decades with refillin jugs in there controled bars. aint nothin new.

so im tole

yup...

[Jimbo]

I was in China last year, and when we went in this upscale restaurant/club they had rows and rows of Jack Daniels, Johnny Walker Black and others. The folks I was with said dont order the fancy hooch, its all fake. The Chinese have even gone so far as to tool up the glass bottles to match identically. Ridiculous. God knows what the hell they're putting in there. Prolly rotgut cheapass hooch with who knows what toxins to mimic flavors. They killed babys with toxins in baby formulas to fool the protein tests, theyre ruthless, and dont give 2 shits about anyones life or well being. Anyway, Im taking this off tangent so Ill stop now.

[Husker]

Prolly rotgut cheapass hooch with who knows what toxins to mimic flavors. ..... theyre ruthless, and dont give 2 shits about anyones life or well being.

hmm, unfortunately if taken in just that part of the quote, it actually sounds like you are talking about the larger commercial distilleries here (many starting with some 1 syllable common male name). That is why I chose to make my own, I can control just WHAT ends up in the bottle.

[Jimbo]

Haha. Right Jim.

[scout]

our pastime has been under fire from 1200 AD. When King William decided to excise tax whisky makers product. It has always been and always be a rebellious undertaking, it is just the nature of the hobby. The best "commercial" guys are so quiet, you would not know them if you stood right beside them, unless of course they are in the process of becoming TV celebs. Yes if you participate in this hobby, and a BATF man finds out, you are going to jail simply because you made it. The laws in the USA do not require you to sell it to be illegal. It will never be legal to make one drop of shine, hooch, whisky, what ever you want to call it. Yes it is legal to own a still, as long as you don't use it for manufacture of Alcohol. It is not legal to have a barrel of mash fermenting along, a quart of un-taxed liquor is the same as a gallon, but five gallons is more time in prison. Unless it is for beer making and you can prove that to the BATF guys, by showing your beer making permit. It's five years for being caught with working mash, 10 years if you have made the run and get caught with the product. The Legal guys spend a ton of money staying legal. It takes around $200,000.00 to the FEDS plus the accounting paper work, the monthly tax payments, the inspections, and on and on. Then you have the State Gov. to deal with too, and they want a hefty chunk for their boot and they want everything stainless steel, except for the pot which can be copper, usually. At least we have the first amendment to quote. Usually, if you aren't spouting off, being obvious about it in any way, not providing it to minors or loose lipped suckers, you will be ignored. The paperwork would be an inconvenience for the police. But make it onto their radar and you will be busted.

[rad14701]

Well, scout, I think you'd better brush up on the legal aspect of things because you have several errors in your post, primarily the differences between state and federal laws here in the US... It is, in fact, illegal to even possess a still in some states... At the federal level it is not illegal to make beer or wine at home and most states have ratified that law... I believe it was Alabama that just recently ratified that law so that it is now legal for homebrewers to make beer... So, you see, you can't paint the entire country with such a broad brush... And I don't know where you came up with the notion that home distillation will never be decriminalized... That is part of our mission here, to prove that home distillation can be safely performed at the hobby level for personal consumption... At some point the US government has to pick its battles wisely and we are already seeing signs of that on several fronts...

[scout]

I never claimed, nor would I claim to know everything. But you have to remember that while some states have legalized medical weed, it is still a federal crime. We are lucky they are now more focused on the growers of weed than on us. I do believe that all the hoopla is tax based no matter what the illegal substance is. As far as I know, Missouri is the only state where it is legal for a hobby person to distill, but even there, if the BATF (feds) want you, they can have you. Where I live, a hobby guy was just busted (last month) because he provided some to a minor, that and he was running his rig in his garage. My main point was and still is, what we do for the love is and most likely will remain illegal, simply because the greedy bastards in Washington want those revenues to spend on what ever. I do not believe it's the notion of being safely performed that's the governments issue with us. I am all for decriminalization of our hobby. I am not a "producer" by the way but a person that wants to keep the tradition alive and well. I do hope we all live to see the time when we can produce for home use with out having to fear prosecution.

[Husker]

I do believe that all the hoopla is tax based no matter what the illegal substance is.

Ding, ding, ding. Well at least this is one big 'part' of it.

The other part is contribution money candidates get. They get a SHIT LOAD from the existing big liquor block. Big liquor does not want to loose thier monopoly. They do not pay high taxes on their products. The end consumer pays that. Yes, they might be able to make a higher end profit if it were not for the onerous taxes, but in the end, they (big liquor) do not 'pay' them.

But I do agree with Rad. Times 'may' be a changin. We are hoping for that.

H.

[scout]

I do believe that all the hoopla is tax based no matter what the illegal substance is.

Ding, ding, ding. Well at least this is one big 'part' of it.

The other part is contribution money candidates get. They get a SHIT LOAD from the existing big liquor block. Big liquor does not want to loose thier monopoly. They do not pay high taxes on their products. The end consumer pays that. Yes, they might be able to make a higher end profit if it were not for the onerous taxes, but in the end, they (big liquor) do not 'pay' them.

But I do agree with Rad. Times 'may' be a changin. We are hoping for that.

H.

I also agree with that, it has been my hope for the last 50 years. I am not ashamed that I was involved "commercially" for many years. I know how to beat feet when the law rings the tell bells. But I will work hard to get us "respectable"

[Butch7]

Some really good info and points of view

As with all things, which seem to be under the radar don't tell

Me personally need to make distilled water

butch

[mannye]

Indeed. I'm getting a still so I can distill perfect water for my completely legal mead making.

It's fun to know about stripping runs and beer recipes but only in the spirit of knowledge.

Can someone tell me what a "birdhead" is and why I would need one?

[T-Pee]

Can someone tell me what a "birdhead" is and why I would need one?

You mean "parrot"? It's for tracking ABV during a run "on-the-fly". Very handy. A picture is worth a thousand words.

A nod to PsychDoc for this picture.

tp

[mannye]

Oh wow. That is something that a novice could use. Doesn't seem all that difficult to incorporate if. I ever got a permit to produce fuel alcohol.

Thank you for the info!

And to get back on track (I try not to hijack), while I appreciate the intentions of the original poster, threads like this should honestly be completely outlawed. This forum will survive only if all conversations are about hobby level distilling.

No one on this forum should need a warning not to counterfeit brands. Because the idea is that no one on this forum is interested in anything but the hobby of distilling in completely legal and non-businesslike manner.

I understand that the hobby itself is illegal at the moment, but like beer and wine it will most likely be legalized very soon. The fact that I can distill my own booze does not mean that I'm not going to buy commercial booze. Case in point, I still buy more beer and wine than I make. Especially beer which is easier to make than wine. I don't even make beer anymore. Just mead.

And when good quality mead becomes available I will buy more of that than I make too. It's just easier for every day. I will still make them all because it's a fun hobby however.

[Butch7]

I agree we must stay to the hobby side of the points, even though some are not doing it for a hobby.

I must make myself not jump into the process of Buying a unit, get a receipt and start making without learning about it.

I will share this, and it is a great thing. There is way too much info to read. Wow this is just fantastic

[mannye]

There's a reason this is called the HOME distillers forum.

[Jimbo]

Good lord, all you newbs here talking like we condone volume production, selling or counterfeiting commercial likkers. WE DO NOT. We will ban your ass for talking about it. We have banned people for even hinting at it.

We have limits on still sizes, and zero tolerance for any hint at intention to sell.

The OP (one of our top dogs) intention is very clear "This is an open letter specifically aimed at all the numb-nut, dumb-ass fools out there that think they can make a million by producing, distributing and/or selling counterfeit alcoholic spirits.

[mannye]

Nah. Just erring on the extreme side of caution. Of course I know no one here condones that. I bet shows like that stupid crap on cable have done more to hurt this hobby than anything.