Compound Still: disruption of equilibrium??

[emptyglass]

Maybe your mistaking "heat" and "proof" and "foreshots".
A little practice is in order.
Check out kiwi stillers "guide to cuts" thread. It has helped many of us here.

Once you cut the fores out, they dont come back. You only make fores in the fermenter, not the still, collecting them is part of the art. Tasting high proof product is different to any store bought stuff you might have tried. Picking the good from the bad takes practice. You wont learn that from books.

Collect in small numbered jars, dilute samples before tasting, and blend carefully. You may find you are making a good product, you just have to treat it right to find it.

Hope that helps

[Harold]

Maybe your mistaking "heat" and "proof" and "foreshots".
A little practice is in order.
Check out kiwi stillers "guide to cuts" thread. It has helped many of us here.

Once you cut the fores out, they dont come back. You only make fores in the fermenter, not the still, collecting them is part of the art. Tasting high proof product is different to any store bought stuff you might have tried. Picking the good from the bad takes practice. You wont learn that from books.

Collect in small numbered jars, dilute samples before tasting, and blend carefully. You may find you are making a good product, you just have to treat it right to find it.

Hope that helps

If, by off chance, I missed something after reading "guides to cuts" multiple times in the past, I have now read it again. Though theory is pertinent and very important when learning the concept of distillation, the post primarily addresses Pot Distillation .... not CM and Fractional distillation. So having this practically memorized, I gleaned little from the author's well written post.

There is no mistaking or confusing the first fraction of a whopping bolus of foreshots with that of taste and smell of heads. Foreshots ARE nasty in every respect and very identifiable. The Grand Architect of this Universe has blessed me with outstanding olfactory organs and a discriminating sense of taste. My sense organs have made no mistake. Though heads from Pot Still distillation is pervasively smeared with foreshots, there is still a succinct difference between taste and smell of overt foreshots and that of heads heavily laced with foreshots. Not even pure ETOH azeotrope bears such resemblance so proof is not an issue. An argument cannot be made when attempting to compare and contrast two or more individuals' personal choice of taste as this becomes subjective and not objective.

I do agree that once foreshots are removed that they don't return. However, I fervently believe that it's impossible to remove foreshots via Pot Distillation. To accomplish this would be purely serendipitous with no measurable repeatability. To some degree, there will always be a smear layer when using Pot Distillation; that's truth borne out by the principles of chemistry and physics. Thus, this is my rational for extracting even larger quantities of foreshots when running my second Pot Still distillate through the Reflux Coolant Management system. The Reflux CM system is simply more discerning and precise with quite the ability to fractionate vapors. I can't ever remember generating such a vile compound with Pot Distillation as that removed by reflux CM. I haven't the words to describe that horrible odor. I think that has become forever etched in my memory.

So my current conundrum lies solely with likely errors introduced while running the CM system. Actually, and in reality, I think the issues I am experiencing are the culmination of accumulative effects attributed to lack of complete control. Modifications to the system, albeit small, are needed because each error that's introduced is regrettably additive and accumulative. I think my laboratory knowledge and techniques are sound but can always be improved upon. As stated previously, the vast majority of my issues reside with lack of adequate control. One major identifiable issue is that of lacking a constant water source. Being on well water, water pressure falls and rises. This means that water to the reflux head will wax and wane with pressure. This translates to temperature fluctuations and in turn unintended destabilization of the column. A dedicated water pump, with constant water pressure is in order. I think a good metering valve is a "must" when controlling water flow to the reflux head. That too will be added. Additional thermometers and selective placement of each would be beneficial. Such would offer a "better picture" of what is occurring throughout the system. Although I have only operated the CM Still three times, proper cleanliness is another factor that must be addressed. I think there can be a lot said for the products I use during fermentation. Perhaps there's a "better mouse trap" if intent is to obtain neutral spirits. Perhaps different ingredients and different bugs. I have yet to try Turbo yeast or a simple sugar, water, yeast recipe.

But all this aside, why not help me brain-storm on *WHY* , after three runs of the original product, my product is still hotter than it should be. I fully realize that ETOH is, in and of itself, a desiccant and to desiccate cells with high-proof ETOH is an invitation to cellular and sensory responses. Cutting high ETOH significantly reduces, but does not eliminate, cellular and sensory irritability. As a Maxillofacial surgeon, no one is more attuned to cause and effect of ETOH, at the cellular level, than I. So, from a medical and physiological point of view, I know exactly WHY burn is occurring, I just don't know why I have continuously been unable to dispose of agents that cause burn ...... even after three distillations and in dilute form.

[Big Bert]

Sound advice EG. And Harold try the sugar turbo yeast I use it a lot and find that there really ain't much taste there for making it good for neutrals . I also think you are trying to hard, make a good wash,learn your equipment,boil, condense ,drink . It's really not that hard. Can give you some hints on using turbo if you wish.

BB

[Big Bert]

Hi Harold, been meaning to ask, how do you pack the column and how high in to the condenser area ??

BB

[Harold]

Hi Harold, been meaning to ask, how do you pack the column and how high in to the condenser area ??BB

Hi BB,

I use copper mesh as my packing. I also use some ceramic rings. Both of these materials came with the rig. Actually, two rolls of CU mesh came with my rig but I have only used one complete roll. The column is packed from top to bottom with either three or four rolls of mesh cut from the single roll (I have forgotten how many rolls). CU mesh is rolled just tightly enough to create resistance against the wall of the column without leaving a "center hole" or void. This helps to keep each roll in place. The first roll is placed at the top of the column and adjusted so as to be even with the top of the column. Each roll thereafter is carefully pushed into the column (from the bottom of the column) until the mesh comes in contact with the first roll. This method is repeated until there is just enough room to include ceramic rings and a final roll of CU. Almost 1/2 bag of ceramic rings are placed in the column (near the bottom part of the column)and then the last roll of mesh is used to fill the remaining space and to secure the ceramic rings. The CU rolls were not wrapped tightly. Just sufficient to provide as much surface area as possible while still allowing vapors to freely ebb and flow with unfettered access throughout the column. I do realize that one can pack the column too tightly but I haven't even begun to approach such compression. I also realize that if wrapped too loosely, efficacy is severely diminished. So I think prudence has been well observed.

[Big Bert]

Hi again, read the whole post again and I think most of your off taste comes from spending to much time under heat,with the hi temps at the bottom of your boiler for so long you are burning the wash ( sort of like cooking bacon to long it smells and tastes burnt). With a tower like yours you should have a stream not drips.. As for thermometer thing ,it's each to there own on that ,but with it below the reflux I think you are only letting vapour through at a prescribed temp, forgetting that there is a lot of cooling going on above due to surrounding temp and such like the reflux ,so are you only sending the forshots at a very slow drip down the shute . With it above the reflux you know what you are sending minus the surrounding temp factor so run it a little warmer and get it out of there..
Even a good stew can only cook for so long
Just read your post try using two rolls of cu then the ceramic and the rest stainless also put SS into the reflux camber but only as high as the top jacket wall leaving the space above open.

BB

[Harold]

Hi BB,

I had wondered about the slow rate of return and constant heat to the boiler. I believe you! That does make for a long time under heat. I have some TURBO 48 hr that came with the rig. I think I will give TURBO the "Ole College Try" and run that at a stream-rate rather than the drip. Should I at least run the foreshots-cut slowly and then "let her rip" when foreshots are "apparently gone"?

What suggestions do you have for the TURBO? Do I need to first do a clearing run in the POT or can TURBO be done in "one fail swoop"?

[emptyglass]

Harold, your column has the ability to compress your fractions, unlike a traditional pot still. That compression leads to stronger odours.
The guide to cuts still holds true, however columns have more ability to manipulate those cuts and compress the bad stuff into smaller more concentrated fractions.
There is no formula, as you would know, that's why its considered an art. Use your architecturally granted senses.

I will say, you will probably get even worse odours using turbo yeast. Try it and tell us what you find.

[Harold]

Harold, your column has the ability to compress your fractions, unlike a traditional pot still. That compression leads to stronger odours.
The guide to cuts still holds true, however columns have more ability to manipulate those cuts and compress the bad stuff into smaller more concentrated fractions.
There is no formula, as you would know, that's why its considered an art. Use your architecturally granted senses.

I will say, you will probably get even worse odours using turbo yeast. Try it and tell us what you find.

Hi EG,

Frankly, I have heard nothing but bad regarding TURBO yeast. That's one reason for never having tried it. However, I'm going to give it a go and I will report my experiences. You know, I think I can deal with bad odors and bad taste liberated during the run of TURBO just as long as I can **clear** / **rid** the final product of "off tastes" and "off odors". My goal with this rig is to produce a neutral product that's practically VOID of off-tastes, off-smells, and **HEAT**. I simply can't tolerate "heat". I have since produce a product from sugar, water, and baker's yeast which has no bite while abounding with a wonderful sweet flavor. Cut to 55%, it's fantastic. My fear is, this may have been a fluke! Yes, Fate may have played an unkind trick. I so fear this to be the case! I look forward to the day that each run and associated outcome is predictable and pleasantly acceptable.

BB has offered a TURBO method that tempts acceptability so I am awaiting his reply with hopes his method proves acceptable.

EG, have you had experience with activated carbon filtration? If so, were your results well received?

Can the use of activated carbon filtration truly remove traces of foreshots and fusel oils?

PS: I agree with you 100%. This is an art and a science and both require careful attention to detail or all will be for naught.

[emptyglass]

There is a reason you've heard nothing bad about turbo's. They are engineered for high wash ABV tolerance, mostly for fuel production, however, if your still is capable of scrubbing all taste and flavour out, theres no reason why turbo yeast cant give pleasing results.
Turbos are capable of giving good yields for minimal input, so they have a place, but they can produce bad esters and bad taste.
There as many different yeasts as there are people on the planet.

On replicating results, that's just practice and feel. It is possible. You can follow the same recipie and method, but it will vary beteen summer and winter.

A good clear wash, a well run still and you wont need carbon filtering, although it can help reclaim some product that didn't come up to your satisfaction. Its like a spare wheel, good not to have to use it, but good to know how if needed.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "heat". Most of us use the term heat to describe a high proof, often beyond what you can buy in a store.

Not sure if that helps you or not

[humbledore]

If by heat you mean "burn" on the tongue in my experience that comes from heads. Better cuts will help. There is a thread on here about making better wash with less heads in the first place. Things like turbo yeast or excessive starting gravity may produce off flavors or just plain more heads. More heads, more burn, less hearts. YMMV. sounds like you had a good experience with bakers yeast, if so why go to turbo?

[Harold]

Hi EG,

Regarding TURBO Yeast, I knew that various species of yeasts had been developed by the fuel community for production of high %abv. Knowing this, accompanied with a bit of knowledge that elevated quantities of aldehyde's, ketone's, and esters favored these yeasts' by-products, I avoided this product since I was "playing" only with the lowly Pot Still thus having no way of avoiding the dreaded, terrible smear layer of chemical agents associated with these species. Having a CM Still has sparked my interest, to a certain degree, thinking I may see some hope if flirting with "little fast producers". Occasionally, I will run across individuals lauding the virtues of TURBO products BUT they are operating Flutes, and Fractionators. I can't ever remember reading anything positive regarding TURBO products from those operating a Pot Still. And of course, we know why.

What I mean by "heat" is the terrible burn (burning of the lips, tongue, buccal mucosa, pharynx, and larynx) that's sometimes presents in distillates. Yes, of course this will occur with HIGH ETOH. ETOH, in and of itself, is a desiccant which causes crenation (not cremation) and crenation is painful especially to particular nerve endings which culminate at the surface of mucosa and are in great abundance throughout the mouth. Naturally, this is to be expected BUT when libating at *reasonable proofs*, such burning should not be the signature of a well crafted spirit ..... in my opinion. Burning is the Hallmark of Ethyl Acetate .... and other agents ..... but primarily EA. During test-taste, I have inadvertently ingested crap that caused hoarseness for several days ...... and I bet many reading this have experienced this as well. We have the technology at our finger tips to avoid this issue. And it should be avoided. When I get "burning" with 40% -55% ETOH, then I have done something very wrong and it's time to step back and re-evaluate technique because EA has fallen through the safety net. I don't want that s@#! in my glass much less in my throat and gut.

I am thinking that a properly operated CM System should eliminate "burning" provided that one is not intentionally subjecting themselves to high ETOH. Obviously, I am missing the mark since I have distilled the same product four times and when diluted to 100 pf I am still getting "hints" of burning. Has BB hit upon on a possible cause when suggesting that I am cooking too long? I think it's highly possible. Perhaps metabolic by-products, normally unaffected by shortened periods of heating, are being cleaved during an extended application of heat and producing volatiles that should otherwise not be produced. Still, we can't discount metabolic by-products of yeast that may be sick or pissed off because they were stressed. Yeasts are the driving force behind flavor ...... success or failure. One could postulate for days but the fact still remains, although I am using the best lab technique taught to me, I am still *creating* a problem and I NEED to identify where this problem lies. I need a GC analyzer and a Mass Spec.

[Harold]

If by heat you mean "burn" on the tongue in my experience that comes from heads. Better cuts will help. There is a thread on here about making better wash with less heads in the first place. Things like turbo yeast or excessive starting gravity may produce off flavors or just plain more heads. More heads, more burn, less hearts. YMMV. sounds like you had a good experience with bakers yeast, if so why go to turbo?

humbledore,

There was no intent to ignore you. I did not see that you had posted until now, otherwise I would have responded in kind. Please accept my apologies.

I think the reason I want to give TURBO a try is because it's fast and this affords me the opportunity to quickly re-evaluate the modifications I've made to my system without having to wait nearly two weeks. The second reason is to at least experience, first hand, whether or not TURBO should be considered a viable option in my hands using my rig. Until I use this product, I can only comment based on hear-say of others. Thirdly, this will provide me with additional contact hours and a chance to become more familiar with my unit. I can't do any worse than what I've done can I?

What is YMMV?

[rad14701]

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

If you have diluted and redistilled your spirits four times and it still has the same burn then you aren't making broad enough cuts... Many here, including myself, have been lax in making cuts at one time or another and ended up blending too much Heads into our final product... Same with Tails... Collect in more smaller amounts and wait 48 hours before blending only the best jars using smell, taste, and feel... What doesn't smell like Heads or Tails in the jar will when a drop or two is rubbed between your palms along with a drop or two of water...

[Big Bert]

Hey Harold, with your heat problem try putting the product in a larger container leave the lit off for about 12 hrs stir from time to time, has worked for me.
Turbos now there's a word that gets lot of people going,if used right they can be good, as stated you have used a suger yeast mix aready and liked it,the turbo will do the same but faster, now having said that not all turbos are created equal. I have found that the lower yield turbos give you a much nicer product, the higher yield ones give you the bad, use only the 18% and lower ( I like the 15% ) you get less but it is better .
What I do: fill fermenter with the amount of water needed (hot) stir the hell out of it a few times then let sit with lid off till temp drops to 90f ,then add one less kg ( 2 lbs) less than instructed with the turbo you have,mix till all sugar is disoved ( I use a 1/2" drill and a 5 gal paint mixer) add turbo and stir for a few mins ,add 1 pealed green banana ,whole do not cut up ,cover and try to keep temp around 80f ,give it a good stir twice a day (try not to break banana). In about 5 days time you will notice it trying to clear its self, I let it clear 3 to 4" remove banana then add the 2 part clearing stuff, let settle for 24hrs ,drain in to another bucket and stir the hell out of it, you will get a lot of foam on it,let sit for a few mins and do it again, and again till there is hardly no foam,cover with cheese cloth and let sit over nite ,drain into boiler but not the sediment in the bottom,run unit like I posted earylier . There are next to no fores with sugar (toss the first cup) or a least I have found,there are tails so watch for them,it's more of a smell thing. Your unit with a single wash should get you 5 to 6 lts at plus 90% , then you will note a drop in % ,now go to full reflux for 15min reset and go again ,this will get you a few more good clean lts but at a lower% around 80%. Shut down. I have found that after the cook leave the lids off the jars for a few hrs.then cut (purified water)to 100 proof or lower ( lower is smoother)
If Bert dozes off and we miss the tail cut it's not a big deal the filtering will clean it.
Turbo runs are great to add the essences to,they make a very nice smooth drink(scotch for me) and if you only cut it to 120 proof you can make some great Apple Pie that will make you want to take your underwear off....

BB

[Harold]

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

If you have diluted and redistilled your spirits four times and it still has the same burn then you aren't making broad enough cuts... Many here, including myself, have been lax in making cuts at one time or another and ended up blending too much Heads into our final product... Same with Tails... Collect in more smaller amounts and wait 48 hours before blending only the best jars using smell, taste, and feel... What doesn't smell like Heads or Tails in the jar will when a drop or two is rubbed between your palms along with a drop or two of water...

Hi rad,

Noticing that you are in NY and I'm in Alaska, there is a four (4) hour difference in time between the two locations. Though we have about two feet of snow on the ground, for the last several days we've experienced well above freezing temperatures (+34F - +36F) thus the vast majority of people in my area are spending daylight hours, as well as dark hours, "playing" out of doors. Normally, we are at -49F with winds of 60 MPH to 80 MPH (which last for days). You guys are getting hit hard with our customary temperatures and weather conditions. So.....I have taken advantage of this lovely temperature and ignored my dutiful and timely Forum communication. Play-time is over and I am now responding. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Referencing your first sentence, I actually had a reduction in "burning" the last and final time I completed my run BUT, as previously stated in a separate post, there was still "some burn". I don't know how to quantify "burning" since individual tolerance is different. That which I *think* is "burn" may be insignificant to someone else. Leaving the product exposed to the environment for 24 hours (in its diluted form), has resulted in all "burn" vanishing. Hopefully I've given Angles all the bad stuff.

I followed your advice and placed several drops in the palm of my hand, rubbed together, and added two drops of H20. There was no perceivable smell of foreshots. I would assume my goal has been attained. As a side note, somewhere I was reading that recent research points to what has been described as "molecular clumping" after a product is first distilled. In a nut-shell, it was purported that traces of molecular conjures would migrate toward one another and eventually clump together thus creating sufficient quantity to cause "burning". They alluded to the need for emulsifying / homogenizing the product and went on to say that a device (most likely ultrasound) was used to permanently break apart "clumps" thus dispensing with "burning". I found that to be interesting. Have you read anthing about that?

Thanks for the tip of rubbing ETOH between the hands. I will remember this and add this to my skill set.

[Harold]

Ok Bert, you're next on the vagina ..... oh I mean agenda.

When reading your instructions, I got lost in a couple of places so I would like to paraphrase what I *think* you were saying so tell me if I am getting this right.

Before I begin, the TURBO that came with my unit is:

Mile High Distilling 48 hour Turbo Yeast
14% in 48 hours or 20% in 5 days
I am electing to use the 14% in 48 hours.

The clearing agent is TURBO CLEAR (two parts)

Now, on to the meat of the matter.
1. Using HOT water, fill the fermenter using the prescribed quantity on the package.
2. Stir Hell out of it, several times, then let set with lid off until temp reaches 90F.
3. The instructions calls for 13 pounds of sugar BUT I should use 2 pounds less sugar bringing the total weight to 11 pounds.
4. Introduce 11 pounds of sugar into 90F H20 and stir until dissolved.
5. Add TURBO and stir for a few minutes
6. Add one (1) pealed GREEN banana (whole)
7. Cover and attempt to keep temp at 80F
8. Stir twice daily without breaking banana
9. After 5 days the solution will be starting to clear. Clearing will occur about 3" to 4" deep.
10. When cleared to 3" to 4", remove banana
11. Add clearing agent as directed on the package. Allow 24 hours for settling.
12. Drain to another receptacle and stir Hell out of it. There will be much foaming. Let it set for a few minutes and stir again. Repeat this process until there is little to no foaming.
13. Cover with cheese cloth and lit stand over night.
14. Drain but be careful not to include sediment.
15. Run as previously described in past post.
16. There should be next to no foreshots but toss the first 1/2 pt to 1 pt??????
17. There may be a significant amount of Tails so be prepared to stop at Tails. If Tails become introduced, filtration will remove Tails.
18. With a single wash I should get 5 to 6 liters of 90% then percentage will drop. Go into reflux mode for 15 minutes then collect again (approx 80% ETOH).
19. Collect another 1 to 2 liters at approx 80%
20. Shut down.
21. Leave lids off jars for several hours then cut to 50% or a little less using distilled water.

Now Bert, tell my how you filter. Do you take activated carbon (AC) directly from the package and filter ETOH or do you boil AC before filtering the product? What has worked best for you?

I'm looking forward to removing my underwear!

[Usge]

Hi Harold.
After browsing this, there seems to be a couple different discussion areas going on.

I started on a potstill...small alembic. Moved to bigger potstills, a boka, a couple different CMs, thumpers, and various configs of plated stills. I've made distillate that burned all the way through from start to finish on ALL of the above. When I say that, I mean a completely blanked run ...where you could not find any part of the run that was not contaminated with it. Didn't seem to matter how it was cut, what proof it was distilled to and watered back down...it would still be there.

The ferment is not just where you create "Flavor". It's where you create "alc". The still is not magically adding or subtracting anything to what you start with in the pot. It's simply separating it or concentrating it to varying degrees. And in that regard (separation) it's important also to remember that we are separating a "solution". And that some things "bond" chemically with ethanol, and form chemical compounds that have boiling points close to ethanol that become harder to separate. That's beyond the fact that some of these substances can pollute a run even if they are present in very small amounts.

There are by-products created during fermentation of your beer. Beer makers/drinkers look to accentuate certain aspects of that for different quality in beer....while avoiding ones that might cause defects in flavor, etc. It's not just the "yeast" or ingredients you use, it's the conditions under which the process takes place. This holds true whether you are making the beer as your final product (for drinking) or for distilling. Do you taste/drink your fermented beer you make? You might find some scratchy hot notes in it there. Or, they may not be notable until after stilling it...and in trying to "separate" it...because of it's relative boiling point related to ethanol, you end up "concentrating" it instead. But, you'll learn a lot by tasting your fermented beer every time.

Once you identify the flavors or tastes or attributes in your fermented beer that you think are causing off-flavors or attributes in your distillate, start trying things to change that or eliminate it. Try different yeast would be a big thing. What temps you ferment at would be another. But, also try different ingredients and/or amounts. See if you affect the attribute you are looking to change in your ferment. Try letting it clear a little longer too (suspended yeast doesn't taste good when it's boiled). Beer makers/brewers are far more anal about this stuff than distillers tend to be — that's particularly true if you've ever heard of the 'possum shake test'. So, you might check good beer making resources too for info. There's a free link here: http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

On the other side of the issue..., there was an interesting discussion started that questioned the method of bringing a still to equillibrium...in that it concentrated foreshots at the top of your compound reflux still and dripped them back down through your packing or plates. That it was a better method to just let them bleed off straight through like a potstill...as opposed to isolate and concentrate them and have them cycle through your packing. Of course, regardless of the method you choose...you've still got them in your condenser. But, then that's what your heads cut is for.

I would just mention here, that I had an interesting, but isolated, experience once that occurred when I screwed up and didn't do what I was supposed to do. ...I left my still (a bok) unattended. Although it was for a short period of time...it was long enough to walk back in and see my boka blowing vapor straight out of the top at a full boil. With little cooling flow in the top the condenser it got very hot and actually heated the pvc hose till it was soft, and it fell off. By the time I walked in...there was full-boil vapor blowing through the top of the column.

I quickly shut the heat, opened a window, found some gloves, and reattached water supply, ran some through the coil for a while. At that point, I decided to just run this off very slowly in potstill mode on the bok and noted there were very little heads to speak of. Maybe the first tiny bit of it was somewhat tinged. Of course...I lost a lot of alc too. Combined...the cut came off at around 100 proof (drinking proof) with no water added. It was loaded with flavor...sweet to the tongue...and dead smooth (no prickly, burning or dry throat).

I'm not sure what to make of it...since it was a one off...and I don't make it a habit of running vapor through my rig at a full boil before turning my product condenser on. But, I would mention here..that the person who was advocating not equallizing your compound reflux still before taking off fores...is using one of "Manu's" VM stills...which has an angled head with sliding, pull-out- condensor that would make this practice very easy...if not convenient.

Summation: is that it's "all-of-the above to some degree or another, but it starts with your ferment — where you actually create the alc. If that's wrong...the rest of the process, or adjusting the separation level, isn't going to fix it — you may in fact end up concentrating the "bad" stuff even more. Having said that, and given starting with a good/clean fermented beer...different distillation techniques, etc...can help you find or adjust the kind of run/cut you are looking for. Hope that helps.

[Harold]

Usge,

There is no contention on my end. I agree entirely and I think your advise regarding methodology toward isolating and differentiating various causes is well gounded. My last few statements, posted Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:11 AM, were alluding to the menagerie of possibilities and a plethora of complex chemical reactions exhibited, if only from metabolic by-products. Such possibilities could easily set a Biochemist's mind into overload.

Your post was thoughtfully planned, well organized, and nicely articulated. Good job!

[Harold]

One other thing I would like to discuss involves temperature observation and control during distillation.

I live at roughly 1500 feet above sea level. Water does not boil at 212F at my house. Slightly less. I assume that this alters conventional expectations of the temperature where ETOH is to cross over. I am using a digital thermometer that’s a remote sensor type. To read a conventional thermometer would require that I spend my time on a step ladder. I am now nearing 70 years of age and I do not need to be climbing up and down the ladder much less falling from a ladder. My thermometer is mounted above the reflux condenser where vapors leave the column rather than below the condenser. It has been suggested that I relocate my thermometer to below the condenser. What are the benefits of doing that? When bringing my cooker to a boil, I expect the column to slowly heat as vapors ascended the column ….. and it does. Once the column begins to get quite hot, just below the reflux condenser, only then do I initiated water flow to the reflux condenser.

Controlling water flow to the best of my ability, I allow head temperature to rise to approximately 163F to 168F and maintained that temperature range for one hour. As previously stated, I am on well water. If pressure drops, which it assuredly will, flow decreases and temperature increase at the head, hence, temp fluctuation.

My *assumption* has been, volatiles will station themselves in their respective “pecking order” during the purification and stacking process, and be halted at the condenser to cool and fall back down the column only to be re-vaporized and rise again. Though some may vaporize at lesser temperatures, lightest volatiles will stack at the top of the column and be the first to come over when water flow is decreased (temperature increase) to the reflux condenser.

In retrospect, I succinctly remember more than just a faint smell of *sweet vapors* being liberated from the discharge port at 168F. Logic would have it that lower vaporizing volatiles (less than 163F) were not being halted at the reflux condenser because head temperature was greater than vaporization temperature (or Vapor Pressure) of the unknown volatile and vapor was escaping out the discharge port. It’s logical to expect that. Had I applied coolant, at that moment, to the Liebig condenser, chances are I would have observed condensation and the presence of a liquid distillate (provided the condenser cooled the discharge line sufficiently).

Regardless, at least one of many undesirable volatile WAS purged from the system. After applying a full stream of water to the Liebig condenser, and maintaining a head temperature range of 163F to 168F, no discernable distillate was observed. This *should be* a good indication that volatiles, which vaporize at less than 168F, had been purged and only volatiles which vaporize at temperatures greater than 168F were being halted and refluxed by the reflux condenser. After sufficient time, equalization should occur, hence, purification and stacking. After equalization, if water flow to the reflux condenser is decreased, an increase in head temperature occurs. With temperatures elevated above 168F but below the temperature of ETOH’s azeotropic boiling point (172.76F), additional undesirable foreshots should “come over” and condense in the Liebig condenser and discharge as a liquid distillate only to be discarded. Maintaining that temperature, if the system is returned to reflux mode, say for another 30 minutes, purification and restacking should once again occur. If then, water flow to the reflux condenser is decreased, and head temperature is allowed to rise to 172.76F (boiling point of the azeotrope of ETOH), in theory any remaining foreshots (which should be slight) will mix with the azeotrope and condense as an undesirable mixture and be discarded. In theory, once purged of this mixture, and allowing the run to continue at that temperature, only the azeotrope of ETOH should discharge (96.2% ETOH).

It has been suggested, via PMs, that I am running my unit too slowly as I am collecting at about 100 drops per minute. Several have suggested that I should be realizing a **stream** from the discharge tube. The only way I know to speed flow is to either increase temperature at the still-head by reducing water flow to the reflux condenser or increase heat to the boiling pot. To realize a **stream**, head temperature must be increased to 175F. This has been my experience with this unit. When head temperature reaches 175F and a stream begins, off-taste products begins to quickly appear in the distillate. Often times quite bad. Once I decrease head temperature to 174F or slightly below, off-taste disappears but the stream disappears as well and “dripping” returns.

How am I to manage a faster run?

[Big Bert]

To filter I use a cartridge type water filter 5"" tall 3" wide ,I cut the original apart leaving the screen In the bottom, I place two coffee filters in the bottom fill half full with dry ac the other coffee filter and fill the rest with dry ac ,one inch from top one more coffee on top, place in sink run water thru it till it quiets running black ,screw on to unit fill will product and wait ,it will take a couple hrs to run thru about 4 gals,let it air out for a while,drink...
Around here we have a product control group,Bert does the smell thing,if he gives the nod the old boy group and me do the taste thing, we have found that after three or four glasses everything tastes great... If you don't like the first bit, try adding 6 tea spoons of maple sugar to a quart jar shake and drink ( maple shine)
Your take on using the turbo is right and most turbos do not give you what they say it will . I think sometimes there is to much time spend on analyzing so I think I will go do some trucking and give my poor old mind a rest and Bert needs to rest up for the next run, a 30 litre reflux stove top unit.
Shine on
BB

[Big Bert]

One last thought. Before I hit the road do we analyse to drink or drink to analyse????

BB

[Harold]

I can't speak for others but I analyze to make the drink more palatable.

[DAD300]

You say you want to use Turbo, to get faster turn around on your ferments, so as to be able to analyze changes to your still.

Make larger, slower ferments so that you always have a finished ferment to run. Also from the larger ferments, you will be running the same ferment, would give better repeatable analysis.

Just because you have a small still, doesn't mean you can't make larger ferments.

[Harold]

Good suggestion!! Thanks.

[emptyglass]

Something my old pa said was
In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory.
In practice, there is.

Just give it a try a few different ways, don't get hung up on perfection, that only comes with time and practice, if it comes at all.

Another good bit of advice the old boy gave me was never waste an erection. Completely irrelevant, but handy.

[DAD300]

Usage...I did this again this weekend and again it worked perfect.

Sugar head with rice for flavor, ~14%, plus two quarts of fients...13.5 gallons into keg boiler

Min reflux as the vapor reached the top of the column, 300ml of fores and a quart of "real" heads, added just a bit of reflux to get to my sweet spot of takeoff rate, next quart was weak heads, next three were pure hearts, next two were very light mix of hearts and tails, then tails...best five quarts mixed together make almost three gallons of drink.

Start through quart seven was all 95+. Hearts are just a very little sweet (rice influence). And when I say tails were light, I mean after airing they were undetectable by smell, but still a slight taste.

I will still advise, that the bad stuff comes off first and you should get it out of your still asap!

If you need to reflux heavier to get the abv you're after, at least bleed the fores and half your expected heads before increasing the reflux!

People keep saying the vapors stack themselves in a predestined order. They do! Until you condense them and send them back down the column. If you 100% reflux with fores and heads in the column, you just make it harder to detect them as the ABV rises. You don't concentrate them. You smear them so wide they are hidden.

After a few runs, you should know the quantity of fores and heads that are unusable in you normal charge. Get that amount out before using the amount of reflux your still needs to get the abv you are after.

Never, purposely, use a total or 100% reflux with fores and heads in the column...

I think it's just common sense. And, if nothing else, everyone should be willing to at least try it.

[humbledore]

I think it's just common sense. And, if nothing else, everyone should be willing to at least try it.

I like your run description of the process, you should put it in the other post. I did try it by the way.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p7138652

[DAD300]

O.k., so you tried it. Any comments on the results?

edited....
Ah...I just saw the other post...very good. I know if people try it, the light will come on.