Bad News

Post by **aquavita** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:40 am

Wow.

Big criminals ya got there - 13 gallon stills... Florida LE must not have real crime to deal with. Must be a very safe place to live - ya know with the big crime bust being a couple a guys with store bought hobby stills.

2 things (if true) from this item - they seem to have it in for Hillbilly (the name pops up allot) and DO NOT KEEP THE DARN STILL OR BOILER IN PLAIN VIEW....

If they can't see it, they'll need a warrant to search.

Post by **Jimbo** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:55 am

Our tax money at work. Easier to bust hobbyists off a list handed to them, than hunt out the meth labs and crack houses. Never mind any silly definition of what constitutes 'real' crimes affecting our citizens health and safety.

Knock knock, this here list that I spilled my coffee and donut cream on says you own a 13 gallon still, part no. xyz, purchased on Nov 13th 2013.

Post by **Stainless dude** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:15 am

I agree 100% Jimbo, a real waste of our tax dollars...

Post by **FullySilenced** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:27 pm

If I was on the list... i would sell my stuff.... I heard a guy name Paidin Cash from Anytown, was buying a lot of em and even driving over to pick em up...

If he does make the trip I will be sure to keep a photo copy of the money and sales receipt of the customer pick up for my files...

Post by **ChairLawyer** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:49 pm

Plausible deniability ... always have plausible deniability; I do homebrew beer and essential oil distilling, and 'refill' various bottles of commercial "moonshine" etc., etc ...

Soggy Bottom Boy · Post by **Soggy Bottom Boy** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:03 pm

Jimbo wrote:Our tax money at work. Easier to bust hobbyists off a list handed to them, than hunt out the meth labs and crack houses. Never mind any silly definition of what constitutes 'real' crimes affecting our citizens health and safety. ......

They do it because responsible citizens have more to lose than the typical low-life criminal.

John Doe usually has a wife & kids, equity in a house, a regular job, money in the savings account, ....something they can take away from him.

1. Go to court, ...spend your life-savings for a lawyer.

2. Go to jail, ...lose your job, maybe your wife & kids too.

3. Lose your job because you don't show up for work (and because of the court costs, fines, and lawyer fees, your nest-egg is gone), ...start missing the house and car payments, ...the bank takes them.

4. Get out of jail and try to get a good job, ...you're a Con now, good luck with that!

See where I'm going with this?

The typical low-life has nothing much to lose or take away.

He gets sent on a vacation to "criminal school" so he can learn some new "skills" and network with others of the same ilk, and gets three hots and a cot that are likely better than when he had on the outside. (gym facilities, library, internet access, etc., as well).

It is a big deterrent tactic and process that they are using to convince normal people to not get into the hobby, and maybe make some that already are distilling, to throw in the towel, stop doing it, and scrap their equipment. They will keep up this crap as long as they feel that it is accomplishing that goal.

Post by **T-Pee** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:12 pm

'em.

tp

Post by **Jimbo** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:20 pm

exclamate'em, exclamationificiationate 'em ?

oh oh I get it, exclaim-a-fornicate em? yes?

whatever. we will likely NEVER ever know the real motivations that drove the Florida agents to hook up with TTB and do this. It could be something as mundane as a high ranking boss made a statement, and some suckup junior dick wanted to impress the boss so ran with it. The piece we wont know is what self serving purpose did this provide, to whom, because thats how shit works. ESPECIALLY for politicians. its all about self gain.

Ok Im done, sorry for the repeated rants. I feel sorry for you kind folk down there in the states. The town Constable here in Iceland comes over and drinks my hooch with me.

Post by **T-Pee** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:26 pm

You're one sharp cookie, Jimbo!

tp

Post by **aquavita** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:30 pm

Hey Jimbo - How's that "Beach Baked Shark" they got up there? I hear that once you get past the smell and gag factor, it's not too bad. Perhaps after a few Brennivín.

DAD300 · Post by **DAD300** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:31 pm

Jimbo...cops/officials here do the same...

Post by **T-Pee** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:39 pm

My landlady thinks it's great. Used some of my drink to take the edge off a cold.
Said it worked real well so I told her that whiskey is the best cold remedy that doesn't work.
She said that after a few belts she didn't give a

, laughed herself into a coughing fit then begged another pint.

tp

Doogie · Post by **Doogie** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:50 am

Now, we can all discuss the appropriate use of tax dollars, how going after shiners instead of crack dealers is absurd - yes, you all have points.

But in the end, it is not legal. Same as writing bad cheques and shoplifting are illegal but are small time crimes in most cases. The point I see being made by the TTB is that they know moonshining is on the rise, they see manufacturers openly telling people they can make their own likker, and that the TTB has extremely easy access to enough information to build a case. Remember, if your state does not allow the possession of a still at all, then they already have enough reason on that list to execute a search warrant. However, I suspect that just showing up, getting cooperation and seizing the equiptment not only 1) accomplishes the goal of reducing the production of illegal spirits, 2) justifies the investigation resources, and 3) justifies the TTB existance.

Think of it - the TTB needs to regulate the likker production in the country (so it can be legally taxed) - so they need to quash illegal operations. If they let it go (even with documentation that explicitly states there is an illegal operation at a specific location and owned by an occupant) then why the heck do they exist?? Also, the TTB just has to ask the builder for the info, hand it to a few people to go out for an interview, and get a result - a very low cost way to build a case - no surveillance, no sting ops, nothing - just an address, a chat, and probably a positive result.

No doubt many of these people will be told "listen, you are not big enough to fry - we will take yer shit, we will give you a ticket or some slap on the wrist, and in turn you will cooperate, let us use you as an example, and in turn you can keep your nice life with wifey and kids in your house. The alternative is we destroy you financially with lawyers fees, you will end up going to jail, watching your home disappear while wondering what yer spouse is doing to provide for your kids"

This is why all you who have bought a still online from these people need to come up with a damn fine excuse for why you no longer have it. You may have to stash the stuff somewhere else for a while, or even long while. Leaving it out in the open is dumb. Opening the door with it on your table is dumb - exit out the back door and come around to the front to greet them. Don't leave your stuff out in plain sight when it is not in use - buy some frigging tupperware bins at Sprawl Mart and hide it. Without a warrant, they cannot do anything - but if you "show" it to them, well, then you just invalidated the need for a warrant. Have a reason why you no longer own one. Heck - stash it some where, let them come in, finding nothing - and maybe then they will leave you be.

Think - use your brains ... it is not that hard to combat this ... and don't think you are "immune"

Post by **Jimbo** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:24 am

Doogie,

2 comments to your post.

1- " then why the heck do they exist?? " Really? They regulate likker, legal likker. Go visit the TTB website. They do a lot.

2 - "Same as writing bad cheques and shoplifting " NO. Those are crimes against other persons. Making a drop to enjoy at home is like growing my own damn tomatoes, which is not illegal yet...

What burns my ass about all this, is its NONE of the governments damn business what I do at home behind closed doors if Im not affecting other persons! Every one of the USA's founding fathers owned stills.

Post by **heartcut** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:42 am

If we used the Constitution for something other than a museum exhibit, stilling (and a few other things) would be legal.

Post by **Jimbo** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:46 am

heartcut wrote:If we used the Constitution for something other than a museum exhibit, stilling (and a few other things) would be legal.

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000

Damn Im fired up for a Friday. Is it noon yet!

Post by **aquavita** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:00 am

5:00 smewhere...

Doogie · Post by **Doogie** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:11 am

LOL @ All fired up Jimbo ...

1) The TTB exists, in alcohol purposes, to enforce many aspects of the production of alcohol (labelling, taxes, yada yada) - needless to say, if they are in charge of making sure alcohol producers follow the rules, then letting 'shiners skirt these regulations is 1) not doing their job and 2) making it unfair for legalized distillers. They have specific enforcement tasks, and unfortunately for all of us, making your own shine violates those regulations it enforces. Right or wrong, it is what it is. They regulate all likker production - likker in general - not just legal stuff. For a full description - http://www.ttb.gov/about/stat_auth.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

2) Making hooch at home is a minor crime - just like I stated - yes, it is - shoplifting is a crime against a company - ripping off the company by not paying the company what it is due - just like not paying the applicable tax on produced likker. Making beer, wine, or your tomatoes is exempt by law from this tax ... and until the law changes, the government will consider that you are "ripping them off" making likker (especially if you sell it).

Listen, I am not trying to justify keeping 'shining illegal - but trying to explain WHY they are going after people. Think of it - if you own a company and handed a sales person a list of clients wanting to order stuff with firm orders all ready to go, and your sales people sat on it, you would not see the need for that sales person right? Same with the TTB - if they are in charge of regulating likker production (ALL likker production) and you handed them a list of people (from manufacturers) that are possibly (or definately) in violation of the regulations, would you not expect that they investigate? If they didnt, then why are the taxpayers paying for them?

And until the right to make hooch is challenged in court on it's violation of your Constitution, then it might as well be a museum exhibit ... maybe they will nail Bill Gates or Warren Buffet, or those Koch douchebags and then they can spend their coin on that fight

Post by **Jimbo** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:22 am

I could argue point 1) all day long. If I didnt have other work to do.

The FDA and Dept of Agriculture can and should regulate commercial tomatoes, to make sure healthy tomatoes make it into your garden salad at TGI Fridays without killing you from botulism (its also debatable if theyre successful at that task). But the FDA and Dept of Agriculture has no damn business in my garden with the tomatoes I choose to grow and eat. There IS a difference. Absolutely.

Anyway, all of this is probably getting long in the tooth. I think we're all in violent agreement in almost everything we're discussing.

Post by **heartcut** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:09 am

Jimbo, violent agreement is not only a good phrase, but also sounds like you and that nun.

BDF · Post by **BDF** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:15 am

Jimbo wrote:I could argue point 1) all day long. If I didnt have other work to do. The FDA and Dept of Agriculture can and should regulate commercial tomatoes, to make sure healthy tomatoes make it into your garden salad at TGI Fridays without killing you from botulism (its also debatable if theyre successful at that task). But the FDA and Dept of Agriculture has no damn business in my garden with the tomatoes I choose to grow and eat. There IS a difference. Absolutely.

Anyway, all of this is probably getting long in the tooth. I think we're all in violent agreement in almost everything we're discussing.

I'd rather government officials not have the latitude to selectively enforce laws passed through the democratic process. The TTB is more of a symptom of what is wrong with our political process and what it incentivizes our politicians to do or to ignore.

Post by **Jimbo** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:50 am

heartcut wrote:Jimbo, violent agreement is not only a good phrase, but also sounds like you and that nun.

You heard us all the way over at your room? Damn. She wanted her spankings rough, but as it turned out, that was my head bouncing off the walls and door. That woman is TOUGH yo! There's a reason the knights wear armor when they visit Castle Antrax!

Taaser · Post by **Taaser** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:00 pm

If anyone is wondering and doesn't know yet. I contacted Mile Hi today and they report every 3 months for stills and columns to TTB. Others parts they care less about. Stills and Columns seem to be stamped with a serial number.

Post by **rad14701** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:25 pm

The way I see it, and the rest of the country/world should be looking at this, is that the TTB is in place to make sure anyone selling alcohol is doing it properly and by the same set of rules... That goes for legal distilleries and moonshiners... Moonshiners aren't following the rules the legal distilleries are so I don't see the TTB tracking them down as a bad thing... What I do see as a bad thing is persecuting those of us who have no intentions of selling but, instead, only want to produce spirits for personal consumption - like wine and beer makers... If they have no proof that we have sold any spirits then leave us the heck alone...

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:09 pm

Taaser wrote:If anyone is wondering and doesn't know yet. I contacted Mile Hi today and they report every 3 months for stills and columns to TTB.

Appreciate it, as it answers the question that's been on my mind. Wonder how things went from "when requested by the TTB" to an ongoing thing.

Taaser · Post by **Taaser** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:40 pm

From prior posts I have been reading, i think its even in the one Brewhaus got, but it said they are required to report every quarter.

Post by **rad14701** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:31 am

If the TTB has changed it policy on frequency of reporting, requiring doing so on a regular basis, they might be trying to determine just how popular home distillation is becoming... Perhaps they will realize this to be another battle they aren't going to win... Their budget could be better spent elsewhere these days...

Post by **Halfbaked** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:54 am

Jimbo wrote:I could argue point 1) all day long. If I didnt have other work to do. The FDA and Dept of Agriculture can and should regulate commercial tomatoes, to make sure healthy tomatoes make it into your garden salad at TGI Fridays without killing you from botulism (its also debatable if theyre successful at that task). But the FDA and Dept of Agriculture has no damn business in my garden with the tomatoes I choose to grow and eat. There IS a difference. Absolutely.

Anyway, all of this is probably getting long in the tooth. I think we're all in violent agreement in almost everything we're discussing.

If you are going to compare stillin to tomatoes id say you would have a rough time with it. The gobberment don't care if the legal guys sell fores or heads or tails. They want them to sell that shite cause the gobberment gets paid for it. It is not about heath or safety of the end user, its all money

Taaser · Post by **Taaser** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:54 am

I smashed my stuff up. threw it in the dumpster. Destroyed everything i had that could be used for distilling. Its not worth the risk. Yes im on the list since i purchased from Mile Hi and still and column. Wonder what will happen if they show up and i have nothing anymore.

Post by **cranky** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:36 pm

In regards to MileHi reporting every 3 months I found this on the "email from Brewhouse" thread.

Re: email from Brewhaus

Postby Rastus » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:26 am
This just in from the folks at hillbilly stills

speak of the devil... here is a copy of their letter sent out today:

Have you heard the news about the TTB? They are on the move and going to each and every maker of distillation equipment. They have been here and this is what we, Hillbilly Stills, had to do and what we were told:
First of all we had to turn over names and serial numbers of each still we have sold. We will have to do this every quarter. For us, that was over 3,000 records. Secondly, it is not illegal to own a distillation column. What makes it illegal is what you do with your column. Now, there is no way we can speculate on what they are going to do and for us say 'what they may do is...' is so unfair to you. There is no need to worry or stress over this. If you are honest with yourself, haven't you kinda known that they could do something with all the shows on making moonshine airing? Here at HBS, we are not stressing or worrying about them and sleep very well each and every night. If there was something to be concerned about please believe us and know we would give every single one of you a heads up.

here i removed the section of the e-mail not relevant to the topic

Just know, if we honestly thought this visit from the TTB was anything to stress or worry over, we would tell you. Please, don't give it another thought. Enjoy life and don't fret or stress...

end of e-mail

I assume if they ordered one to report Quarterly, they ordered the rest. But like all the still manufacturers repeatedly said on that thread, It's nothing to worry about, They sleep very well at night...

Oh wait, maybe, just maybe as many people in Florida found out, maybe there is plenty to worry about. I wonder how well those still manufacturers are sleeping these days.

Home Distiller

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