Screw this! (propane)

[sambedded]

Ordered two controllers to play with.

[sambedded]

White_Lightning_Rod ,

Could you please disassemble your burned controller and make a picture or just write down here how an SCR is marked?


Thanks

[White_Lightning_Rod]

White_Lightning_Rod ,

Could you please disassemble your burned controller and make a picture or just write down here how an SCR is marked?


Thanks

I dunno what you mean, what do you mean my how and SCR is marked, do you mean the markings that are on the triac/SCR componet only?

[sambedded]

yes. I'd like to know SCR model N.

[Jimbo]

Ordered two controllers to play with.

Looking forward to seeing your analysis.

Of course Murphy says they'll have this issue under control now, and yours will work perfectly.

[sambedded]

I'm not saying that this controller is perfect. Im just trying to make you understand that you are using wrong tools to evaluate it..

[acfixer69]

There maybe hope for my fermenter use after all Will be watching Sam and will hold off ordering till after your findings

AC

[T-Pee]

This thread went places i never expected it to. ll I wanted to do is bitch about as WLR said so succinctly, "sweating my balls off".

Still gonna go electric but got a couple of other toys to pay for first.

tp

[White_Lightning_Rod]

Sorry I kinda took over your thread T-Pee, I know last time I ran propane it was in the 50s outside and my basment was pushing 85 I can only imagine what it would be like with ouside temps in the 80s and 90s.. Ive got the SCR jimbo uses on order should be here by the end of the week, just a matter of swapping the digi one out for it and ill be back up and going correctly. It was this thread that was the kick in the ass I needed to make the swap tho, so thanks

[T-Pee]

Gawd. No apologies necessary. The amount of great information here is what I was hoping for.

tp

[BentJar]

My thanks for the info found here. I now run my still with electricity. Have made only one run but I really like the way it works. I don't have 220V out to the shed yet, but am running 110 volts to a camco 5500 watt low density element. I heat up with propane and elec. till a drip starts and shut off the burner. The element runs the still at the perfect temp until it runs out of alcohol (down to 10 % on the test run). Plenty of reflux and a steady take off rate.

I used part # 4810T246 BSPT coupler from McMaster-Carr and tigg welded it to the 15.5 gal. keg. It has straight threads and the element screws in half way then begins to tighten up just right. Works great. $6.88 costs.plus shipping.

Works is underway for 220 to the shed and my controller parts are ordered.


I should have done this years ago.

[BigSwede]

My thanks for the info found here. I now run my still with electricity. Have made only one run but I really like the way it works. I don't have 220V out to the shed yet, but am running 110 volts to a camco 5500 watt low density element.

Very interesting... your Camco element gives you a nice reflux on a full 120VAC current? That would mean you are putting 1375 watts give or take into the boiler. That's a good number to know, and a bit lower than I would have guessed for a 15.5 gallon keg.

As far as the defunct Chinese device, the discussion has gone over my head, but why wouldn't an AC toroid transformer slipped over one of the wires deliver an accurate amperage to an analog AC amps meter? I can see how a digital ammeter might cough, but maybe analog would work.

For my own power box (resistance-SSR based) - I really wanted reliable power readings, so I looked hard for a good ammeter/wattmeter that would read correctly the phase-angle output, and I found a nice one, I think, Japanese-made, but unfortunately it is pretty pricey.

http://www.newark.com/datel/acm20-5-ac1 ... st=29R0785 Newark part number 29R0785

The data sheet states: Unlike conventional, average-responding products, ACM20 power meters can accurately display the real power and true-rms current values of triangle waves, square waves, and other irregularly shaped waveforms, with a typical accuracy of ±1% of full scale.

From what I've seen, it does what it says, and I get a nice linear response, with the display reading 5,450 watts at full grunt using that same Camco element. FWIW

[Red Rim]

Funny you should say that. I am looking at six of them in a breaker panel feeding different commercial office spaces in a large downtown building. These are made by Leviton and I am sure they are not cheap.

[BentJar]

Big Sweed, I dont know what going in as far as watts goes...all I know is how it works. The still runs the same, same vapor temp. I have a sight glass so I could see it raining licker and its refluxing like hell. Im a happy stiller now.

Once first drip comes, shut the doors, off goes the burner and on comes the AC.
Life is good

Bent

[White_Lightning_Rod]

yes. I'd like to know SCR model N.

Finally got around to taking the thing apart, here is all the writing that was on the SCR itself.

"HAOHAI
BTA80-1600B
KG1318SZ"

[sambedded]

Thanks.
Sounds promising - It's a 80Amp rated triac.

[White_Lightning_Rod]

There is a chinese website on one of the PCBs and i was bored so I was looking at the pics since I cant exactly read chinese and found this item listed, the site looks like a chinese version of amazon for electronics, I used google translate to translte the description I know things get lost and twisted in translation but there are some interesting things in the description. , the 220 of 100 volt didnt make much sense to me but may to someone else. Here it is.

"
Parameters:
Voltage: AC 220V
Maximum power : 10000W
Voltage regulation 0 - 100% ( 220 of 100 volt regulator , nonlinear )

The use of new two-way high-power thyristor , because current up to 80 security , a good solution to the problem of over-current electric wire in case of cooling is too small to cause the resistance ; able to easily adjust the output voltage of electricity in between 0-100 % ( 220 of 100 volt regulator , nonlinear ) be adjusted for use with appliances . Such as: furnace, hot water heater tune , dimming lamps , small motor, electric iron thermostat and so on. So as to achieve dimming, thermostats , pressure effect. Available for less than 10,000 watts of electrical power use due to the large electrical power has been great, it is generally sufficient household appliances or small factories using . ( Inductive or capacitive load power should be reduced , the regulator is equipped with two-way high-power thyristor , do not add any components to use, very convenient and practical ) ."

[Matt86]

I put an order in for this controller a few weeks ago, needless to say this has been a worrying thread!
It arrived yesterday, smaller than expected and with obvious thermal paste between the triac and the heatsink, although there is a contact risk between the triacs 'legs' coming vertical out of the circuit board and a resistor on the upper side.

I've just hooked it up to a 100W incandescent bulb.
Results, a linear increase in brightness with each percentage progression.
A multimeter on the output shows volts start at 0 at position 0 and 26 at 1, from there its an approximately linear increase to output matching input at about 228V.
Now I have 'proper' 240V, maybe this is a requirement rather than the two 120V inputs?

I charted the volts and amperage increases with percentage in a quick, mock up fashion with the 100W bulb.
Nice linear voltage increase with each button press from 0v at 0 to 226v at 100.
Not sure on reproducibility because I saw some strange inconsistencies when retested ie still linear but a few tens of volts offset.
However my multimeters are the cheapest of the cheap and the makeshift nature of the measurement makes that somewhat suspect.
Heating of the bulb/amperage multimeter might also play a role, amps increased from 0.01 to 0.53 at 30- 57 (99v-171v) then decreased and became inconsistent but that meter is even more suspect than the voltmeter + heating changes to resistance...



Cant wait to see what to see what the experts opinions are.

[BigSwede]

I'm no expert, but apparently getting accurate voltage and current readings with these things is an issue, and the actual power delivered may be nicely linear.

Power is what we care about, ultimately, not what a high-speed digital meter samples from the output.

My guess is, if you can scrounge up some old analog meters, ammeter or voltmeter, it'll read more accurately than a typical digital meter.

[White_Lightning_Rod]

[quote="Matt86
Now I have 'proper' 240V, maybe this is a requirement rather than the two 120V inputs?

[/quote]

I really think this is the limiting factory with this specific controller, I dont think the standard "2 phase" 240v that we use (two 120v leads) leads to the controller being able to accurately read the zero cross as sambedded explained since there are theoreticly two zero crossings happening with our 240v system (from what I gather in my reading about SCRs and microcontrollers). Im glad I spent the money and experimented with it, and if someone happens to figure out how to make it work well with our 240v system I would buy another and use it because it has a cool factor that the standard knob doesnt have. I truley hope it works well for you and look forward to more people trying it and learning more about how to use it. In the mean time I wish the slow boat coming from china would speed up and get my tried and true replacement here soon so I can get back up and going.

[Red Rim]

That damn boat sure moves slow! I may have to fire up an electric start and a gas finish just so I can go back to cooking.

[BentJar]

Slow is right RedRim, we got our wire in the ground yesterday and panel work to do today if my back holds out.
Got a ferment to run tomorrow so may have to hit the elec. start burner just one more time.

[White_Lightning_Rod]

Well mine finally made it today. Just finished reworking my controller box and plugged her in. Workin perfectly...

[sambedded]

OK, got that digital controller today and tested it.

My assumption that it's a burst type controller was incorrect . This controller uses phase-angle control.
I have two news - good and bad

Good one:
Controller is perfectly functional and linear. It can work from one 240V phase ot two 120 V phase 180 degree shifted.

Bad one:

It's designed to work only on 50Hz power. It doesn't work properly on 60Hz. All that un-linear behavior you've seen just due to this fact.

Hardware can work on 60HZ with no problem but update of firmware is required. Probably 60Hz version are already available but seller(s) didn't specify t.

[Red Rim]

That explains a lot, thanks for your research. I just received my analog controller today. Nothing like simple, basic, reliable.

[rad14701]

Bad one:

It's designed to work only on 50Hz power. It doesn't work properly on 60Hz. All that un-linear behavior you've seen just due to this fact.

Hardware can work on 60HZ with no problem but update of firmware is required. Probably 60Hz version are already available but seller(s) didn't specify t.

Never heard of an electronics component that wouldn't run on both 50Hz and 60Hz... Or are you referring to a PID...??? Triacs and Potentiometers don't care about Hz... Not aware that any of the PSR's/SSR's do either...

[Jimbo]

Rad, this is the digital version with a display and up/down buttons to adjust power steps. Apparently its a microprocessor with some algorithm to PWM the Triac. Sounds like the timing in the algorithm is jacked at 50Hz?

[bluenose]

My thanks for the info found here. I now run my still with electricity. Have made only one run but I really like the way it works. I don't have 220V out to the shed yet, but am running 110 volts to a camco 5500 watt low density element. I heat up with propane and elec. till a drip starts and shut off the burner. The element runs the still at the perfect temp until it runs out of alcohol (down to 10 % on the test run). Plenty of reflux and a steady take off rate.

I used part # 4810T246 BSPT coupler from McMaster-Carr and tigg welded it to the 15.5 gal. keg. It has straight threads and the element screws in half way then begins to tighten up just right. Works great. $6.88 costs.plus shipping.

Works is underway for 220 to the shed and my controller parts are ordered.


I should have done this years ago.

I really like your collecting tabletop on the keg... I think I'll make one of these too

[sambedded]

Never heard of an electronics component that wouldn't run on both 50Hz and 60Hz...

Have you ever heard about LC-circuit (AKA resonant circuit)?

...Potentiometers don't care about Hz.

There is no potentiometer. It's a digital controller. Microprocessor detects a zero crossing event and sends signal to triac to open after delays wich depends on power level set. Unfortunately delays are precalculated for 50HZ
It's not a big problem to write a firmware such a way that controller will work for 50Hz and for 60HZ. But chinese developers just didn't bother about it.

[rad14701]

Never heard of an electronics component that wouldn't run on both 50Hz and 60Hz...

Have you ever heard about LC-circuit (AKA resonant circuit)?

...Potentiometers don't care about Hz.

There is no potentiometer. It's a digital controller. Microprocessor detects a zero crossing event and sends signal to triac to open after delays wich depends on power level set. Unfortunately delays are precalculated for 50HZ
It's not a big problem to write a firmware such a way that controller will work for 50Hz and for 60HZ. But chinese developers just didn't bother about it.

Yes, but I'll stick with the KISS concept... Why...??? Because simple works...!!!