Triple Coil Cold Finger Condenser

[Hound Dog]

Don't be offended. Many, many people have come here with the same idea that you had just expressed. I have heard it a lot so I an sure Rad who has been here way longer than me has heard this idea countless times. The automated part does take away some of the artisan factor for many. I have to say it is much more complicated than adding a PID to adjust temps or even valves for takeoff rates. If it was that simple, many would have done it.

One member does work with a company that has designed automated stills. He tends to share vast amounts of knowledge here (to me it seems surprising amounts since it counters his business) but he gets slammed for referencing his own unique equipment even though it is outside the realm of hobby pricing for most. Perhaps you can get him to spill his programming setup and go from there . I just want a discussion on the LM head design that he claims does not splash.....

At any rate, we are off topic from your triple coils that are pretty cool and there are plenty of other threads about automation. Sorry about that all!

[biggeroots]

Hi Doogie...
. Next on my list is to sort out a PID thermostat and SSR linked to the sensor in the head so that I can accurately hold the head at a constant temp through the various stages.

Moorem, you do a great job with these coils. I have to tell you though, you are off base with the PID idea though. Controlling the temperature at the top of the column of a reflux still is not a function of controlling the heat input at the boiler. Heat input at the boiler must be hot enough to maintain boiling of the wash. Period. The magic 172 you are wishing to hold steady at the top of the column is a function of the reflux. The packing chemically separating the alcohols and the lighter cooler ones getting pushed to the top. The equalibrium of the column is a balance keeping the refluxing condensate just below flooding. Many times after the column balances and is in full reflux and equalizes for a while when I start my takeoff I find that if I bump the heat input up just a bit it helps increase the reflux to compensate for what I am removing. Temps hold steady this way.

I dint think a PID will understand to cut heat back to keep from flooding but increase it to keep the temp down step after step. This has been discussed many times in the past.

Quote:
Controlling the temperature at the top of the column of a reflux still is not a function of controlling the heat input at the boiler. Heat input at the boiler must be hot enough to maintain boiling of the wash. Period. The magic 172 you are wishing to hold steady at the top of the column is a function of the reflux..Unquote:

I was under the impression the wash needed to be heated to the point that the alchohol boiled off (78)! And not merely boil the wash. If thats the case, why have a controller at all! Confused.com

[moorem]

Thanks biggeroots,
I think there is a combination here. Would not too much energy at the boiler will give too high a feed rate to the column which would upset a reflux ratio when a desired ratio is set. If the temperature at the head is a function of the reflux ratio there is clearly a link between the feed rate to the column, the power input to the boiler and that ratio figure. The power input to the boiler needs to be controlled to provide a constant feed to the column and this is easy to achieve these days, it needs to be sufficient and not overwhelming for the column and condenser.
So it seems that monitoring a desired reflux and tying this back to the power input of the boiler is fundamental.

Any thoughts?

[biggeroots]

Yes i believe so too. There will always be a 'lag' to account for. I cant think how to monitor the actual reflux ratio. Controlling power to the boiler, providing constant feed to the column is what my controller does. Except it wont account for changing fluid SG or ratio of ethonol to water etc.
Another thought....a continuous still would mean continuous, sustained, and steady reflux ratio, would it not? As the only changing element in a still is the wash! Making a continuously fed still would do away with a need to control the boiler, after initial start up of course.

[rad14701]

We almost always have at least one active topic regarding automation... And while I think it just adds more shit to go wrong, if people want to banter about it, so be it... But your average hobby distiller doesn't want or need all the bells and whistles that some of the technoids want to incorporate... And don't get me wrong, I'm a technoid geek myself... I just don't see the need for it in this particular hobby... I do this in an effort to get away from all that electronics crap, aside from a digital thermometer...

The question here is, what kind of a reflux column do you want to make and what type(s) of spirits would you intend for it to produce...??? That's a good starting point... I mentioned Liquid Management because those designs can run full neutral or partially to full flavored spirits... A Vapor Management column is the best choice only if you want to make neutral spirits... A Cooling Management column is also very versatile for both flavored and neutral spirits and is probably the easiest to run in quazi-pot still mode...

[Hound Dog]

Bigger, Moorem, you cannot boil a wash at 172 degrees. A wash is a mix of both alcohol and water (among other stuff) so it boils at a temp that is determined by the amount of each. The heat input will not change the temperature of the wash. Do you know how to check your thermometer for calibration? Put it in boiling water. That water is 212 degrees. No matter how hot of a fire you put under it it will remain 212 degrees. It just boils faster and transfers more energy. The same with your wash. You can't just get the alcohol to boil without the water. It is an alloy so to speak. Think of bronze. It is a combo of tin and copper. You can't just heat it to the melting point of tin and separate it from the copper though can you?

To separate the alcohols in a column you need the right rate of boil for your packing to maintain equilibrium. If you do not have enough power to create proper reflux the temp at the top of your column will be high. To get it to come down, you will need to increase power to create more reflux. If your packing is denser, you will need to cut it back it avoid flooding even though it is reading 172 because it is flooding with boiling alcohol. If your packing is less dense you need to crank it up it keep the temp back down when you start takeoff because you will disrupt the equilibrium.

That is just for neutral in an LM. You have to change how you run it according to packing and to wash alcohol percentages. This is why I do strip runs and spirit runs on low wines. I find the results more predictable. I don't think you will be able to achieve this balance with a simple series of PID controllers regulating heat input.

[moorem]

I don't think I'll bother discussing any more thoughts and considerations here any more.

[rad14701]

I don't think I'll bother discussing any more thoughts and considerations here any more.

Perhaps you just need to know what you're talking about before you bring a subject up... Ample research goes a long ways around here, and is expected... Not busting balls, just stating the facts...

[Hound Dog]

Don't go getting your feelings hurt. I just wanted to point a few things out that you might not have understood. Thinking outside the box is cool but many just don't agree. That's the downer of a public forum. You could be the closet mad scientist and come back to prove us all wrong and rub our noses in it. I would love to see it. You post about it first and you will get opinions though.

Look at some of Odin's very early posts and read what he does now. Some people seem to have an uncanny knack for this. Yourself, you make the best looking copper coil I have seen to date. I just don't agree with the PID thing for all the reasons listed. Don't let that discourage you from the forum though.

[skow69]

+1 Hound Dog. I thought your post was considerate and well intentioned. Newbies will benefit from you correcting the misinformation in a consice and nonconfrontational manner.

Skol,
skow

[Hound Dog]

Thanks Skow69.

[Doogie]

I don't think I'll bother discussing any more thoughts and considerations here any more.

Dude, remember the internet is difficult to interpret feelings in conversation.

A few have come in here and posted ideas, and got flamed quite nicely - of mind, the JD Chips, nuking booze ... I am sure there are many others. Even some like Odin get in shit because they post advanced ideas of his commercial operation and he gets accused of advertising and promoting non-hobby levels of production.

The best thing to do, find a few smart people here, keep to yourselves, develop and research your idea.

Then for shits and giggles, post a few pics, some info, watch people blow up, then post the proof. Kind of what people witnessed with Fully Silenced and his nuking booze technique - from "aint right" to "gonna blow up yer house, wives and kids" to "this is cool and it works" and "it is safe".

And if it does not work, then post it to. Of course, you will get a ton of people explaining why they knew it would not work, but you may get a few that may lead you in the right direction.

There are a lot of people on this forum ... and like the general population, some are classified in a positive light, and some in a not so shining example of humanity category, and I see a lot of good thoughts here ...

[L- Plater]

Hey moorem look a little further down on column builds page and you will find Automated LM. These guys are looking to do something like what you hope to do ( I think so anyway).

[Doogie]

Moorem, after some trials and cleaning, I finally utilized your coil - about 48" column total with a boka slant plate - while I have to calculate everything like timing etc, etc, the coil worked well enough to produce a alcoholemeter reading of 97% ...

Much thanks for your work you sent ... I wish you well, and hope you stick around...

[moorem]

Thanks Doogie that's mighty kind of you to take the time for a bit of feedback.
Yeah... I'm sticking around because despite what others say there is a lot of good advice here and more well meaning people than not.
I'm looking to modify my boka to remove the head from the 2" column and replace it with an off-set head. I'm going to build a head to take one of my big triple 3" coils and take the distillate from the bottom through an extra couple of cooling loops.

[Doogie]

Only one issue I found, which is controlable, is that with the small diameter tubing in the coil, there is an instance where the coil can start to clog up and restrict water flow.

For instance, I found that when I run a water supply like my kids' little pool, and there is a lot of debris, and the kids jump in stirring up the crap, the pump sucked up the debris and it started to restrict waterflow. Never clogged it (both return lines continued output - I used the coldfinger as the input of water) but careful consideration to the top of column temperatures and water output temperature will reveal if this is happening.

Or just use a clean water source. To clean it out, I simply connected a house water source and fired it thru full blast for a bit - your design was able to handle the pressure.

Your coil with a boka slant produced 97% likker that was very good with a start ABV of 35% of feints (single malt AG) at a rate of 1L/45 minutes on a 2" column that is 5' high with SS scrubbies. Dunno power input as I am on propane - low flame.

You really should market them ... very good work

[moorem]

Doogie...
That really made me laugh. I didn't take into consideration a kids paddling pool when I was designing the coils... obviously an oversight on my part!
I'm using a similar 2" coil to the one I sent you in my current new still and it seems to work quite well in a Boka arrangement. The only thing I think I want to change is to move the reservoir, where the distillate collects, out of the way of the really hot vapour path... hence my thoughts of converting my still head to an off-set arrangement. That way I can do away with the second cooling stage at the take-off because it will already be cooled as it comes off the condenser coils.
My still balances out at around 1100 watts AC input as measured with a clamp meter. After losses I think the coil must be sinking between 600 to 700 watts. The column is 54" of 2" polished stainless, which will not lose as much heat as a copper column, so at a guess its sinking around 400 watts. I've had it running flat out before with just boiling water at 2000 watts and the coil still knocked down the head of steam rising up the column quite easily. Only about half the the condenser got warm at full blast.