A lot of you have seen my Still Tutorial CM and the condenser mods that I've done ala PP. Thing is, the simple 1/4" external coil doesn't work as well as I'd like to now that I use a closed loop pond pump-based cooling system.
I want to improve on the little 1/4" coil somehow and I'd like some input from my HD buds.
Attached is a pic of the column. My thought right now is to remove the coil and make a 1.5" x 2" liebig-style external jacket that'll just slip over the column without the need for cutting it. Water flow would be via 1/4" connections to the reducers in the manner we do with parrots. Am I on track for a reasonably simple mod that will increase the efficiency of the reflux?
How much length are you considering? If I remember you've only got 4" or less of column wrapped. You've got to add more cooling area than you have now 6" maybe of exposed column. Internal coil is the most efficient, one cut and a coupler or loosen one joint and drill a couple of holes for inlet, outlet pipes/tubing and then you'd have as much reflux as is possible. External jackets can't stop it all unless you cut input power I'm afraid.
Cue the CM hating wolves!
Everything's better home made, everything!!
15.5 keg 7.75keg 2"pot still, Gold CM
Never look down on a man unless it's to help him up.
I can't remember the diameter of your column tpee?, is the jacket you want to do, 1.5" long or diameter?. Them jacket type condensers seem to have a bad rep but I've seen reports they work ok. Maybe build a ruby condenser, sounds like it works wonders. If you've got a cap on the top of the column, couldn't you slip a coil or cold finger in there?, and no, I don't mean put your finger in the freezer then stick it in the hole!
Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems.
"Homer J Simpson"
You're right, guys. An interior coil would be the ticket and I could simply drop it in through the top cap which simply slips on. Right? Interconnection to the existing inlet/outlet is as simple as slipping on two pieces of plastic tubing.
Another option would be to insert a torpedo reflux condenser... You could make the torpedo and then slip it down into the column and solder to the column wall... Use a piece of right-sized copper, flatten and solder the ends, solder a short stub to each end of the torpedo, drill holes, position torpedo, and solder... Done...
Far more efficient than any external reflux method...
How about this?
1" (?) diameter x 8" long outside jacket, 1/2" (?) interior return, 7" long.
The inlet/outlet will be attached to the existing top cap as a unit.
Condenser will sit 1" above top of column packing.
One completed coldfinger.
All I have to do is drop it into the top of the column until the the column cap seats since it will self-center, hook up a couple 1/4" clear tubes to the existing RC system and let 'er rip.
Definitely excited about it since it's SO simple and should let me hit azeo if I want to and the RC will be a whole lot more efficient than the external coil. I packed it with SS scrubbies for extra surface area and mixing too.
I'm contemplating a CM reflux setup. What advantage does your "coldfinger" have over a standard coil that's double wrapped? A double wrapped coil similar to what you'd use in a Bok would seem to work even better due to increased surface area. At least that's what I was planning. With a needle valve controlling the amount of water flow to the coil and a separate valve controlling water flow to the leibig.
Simpler to build! Crushing small copper tube while trying to learn how to wind a coil maybe a right of passage, but not necessary.
You'll find that the need, for a powerful reflux condenser is grossly exaggerated. A cold finger or a single wound coil will be more than adequate. A CSST SS tubing will handle more power than most propane users can muster.
A simple Dimroth would work well on most! Tube down the middle and back up, maybe some scrubbie around it!
Thanks. I sat down and sketched out this ghetto style drawing and I'd like your opinions. It's not to scale but I tried to show lengths when possible. I'm thinking of building something in this style but I have some questions and I've labeled them A, and C.
First off I envision using 2" copper due to its ease of work and easy soldering. I'm totally open to what type of coil I'll use whether it be coiled copper, currugated stainless steel, or some type of ridged copper down-tube such as the one DAD mentioned above.
Issue A - let's assume I use 1/4" double coil copper helix. Maybe 6-8" depending on what's necessary. I'd like clarification of where the bottom of the coil needs to be in relation to the top of the take out. While I initially assumed it would need to come down past the take out my reading tells me it shouldnt. But there is some conflicting info as to weather it should be flush like shown in the picture or possibly an inch above it.
Issue C - I'd like opinions on the optimal size of pipe coming from the take out. Should I keep 2" coming out? Does that help with output? Or can be be reduced to say 1" and still be efficient?
One other question that I forgot to label but just thought of is should I use an angled leibig or come straight down like that. I'm assuming around a 24" liebig but larger if necessary. I do plan to use this as a pot still as well by removing the reflux coil and capping the top.
What you've drawn isn't terrible and would make ethanol...it is a reasonable column with a few defects.
You effectively have drawn a VM column with 1:1 reflux and no control to change it. You can add a valve ($$) to the takeoff port or make the reflux coil longer (it becomes the valve for free) and moveable so that it can restrict vapor to the takeoff by lowering and raising it.
If your reflux coil is fixed...a 1/2" above the takeoff port is fine.
Route you cooling water from bottom of leibig to top of leibig, then to reflux coil (no valve), there is an advantage to having the product condenser temper your water before it gets to the reflux condenser. The only reason for two supply lines is if your water supply is excessively warm you might have to separate the two.
Shorten the horizontal of the takeoff. Shortest is better...
Position the product condenser for the easiest location to collect your product. Angled away from the boiler to a table is best. If you have a spill it will not be over the boiler.
DAD300 wrote:What you've drawn isn't terrible and would make ethanol...it is a reasonable column with a few defects.
You effectively have drawn a VM column with 1:1 reflux and no control to change it. You can add a valve ($$) to the takeoff port or make the reflux coil longer (it becomes the valve for free) and moveable so that it can restrict vapor to the takeoff by lowering !
Wouldn't using the needle valve to reduce or increase the flow of water to the reflux condensor effectively regulate the amount of reflux taking place? Low water flow (warmer coil, less condensate)....higher water flow (cooler coil up to full reflux)
I'm still trying to understand all this but I kind of thought this was a CM design because I felt I could change the amount of reflux based on how much water flow goes through the coil ?
DAD300 wrote:What you've drawn isn't terrible and would make ethanol...it is a reasonable column with a few defects.
You effectively have drawn a VM column with 1:1 reflux and no control to change it. You can add a valve ($$) to the takeoff port or make the reflux coil longer (it becomes the valve for free) and moveable so that it can restrict vapor to the takeoff by lowering !
Wouldn't using the needle valve to reduce or increase the flow of water to the reflux condensor effectively regulate the amount of reflux taking place? Low water flow (warmer coil, less condensate)....higher water flow (cooler coil up to full reflux)
I'm still trying to understand all this but I kind of thought this was a CM design because I felt I could change the amount of reflux based on how much water flow goes through the coil ?
I believe the take-off is above the reflux condenser on a CM still. I'm far from an expert, so verify that. But TP's column appears that way.
Dad300 has an awesome design. I'm in the process of making a 2" copper version. My biggest hold-up is figuring out and perfecting SPP, as I'm trying to make my own. I'd look at DAD's design, its pretty nice!
ShineRunnah wrote:I believe the take-off is above the reflux condenser on a CM still. I'm far from an expert, so verify that. But TP's column appears that way.
Yeah and I'm not sure what to think to tell you the truth.
I think my narrow column is allowing the vapor speed to overrun the coldfinger. I hooked the external coil back up in series with the coldfinger and it does ok but not what I was wanting for knockdown. On top of it, condensate occasionally leaks out from under the top cap when running too fast. Flooding maybe? I dunno. I'll just have to keep doing runs, building stock and figuring this rig out. Thank goodness for the parrot/alcometer. At least I know what's coming out of the PC.
I have been using marbles ( thanks Rad). When I get the thing really flooding, I can hear the marbles bouncing in the top of my column. I put a long cold finger (16 inches of 1/2 over 1/4). It creates a whole bunch of reflux
There is no such thing as a stupid question....... Unless you didn't research it first.
DAD300 wrote:What you've drawn isn't terrible and would make ethanol...it is a reasonable column with a few defects.
You effectively have drawn a VM column with 1:1 reflux and no control to change it. You can add a valve ($$) to the takeoff port or make the reflux coil longer (it becomes the valve for free) and moveable so that it can restrict vapor to the takeoff by lowering !
Wouldn't using the needle valve to reduce or increase the flow of water to the reflux condensor effectively regulate the amount of reflux taking place? Low water flow (warmer coil, less condensate)....higher water flow (cooler coil up to full reflux)
I'm still trying to understand all this but I kind of thought this was a CM design because I felt I could change the amount of reflux based on how much water flow goes through the coil ?
I believe the take-off is above the reflux condenser on a CM still. I'm far from an expert, so verify that. But TP's column appears that way.
Dad300 has an awesome design. I'm in the process of making a 2" copper version. My biggest hold-up is figuring out and perfecting SPP, as I'm trying to make my own. I'd look at DAD's design, its pretty nice!
So what if I were to shorten the riser above the T and make the coil long enough that it set fully below the takeoff. Keep the split water and use a needle valve to adjust the amount of water going through the reflux coil. Is that a better setup?
Better yes, but there is no need for minute adjustment of the water flow through a VM or LM...in a VM or LM reflux coil you are always condensing 100% of the vapor...never a percentage.
In a CM you are sometimes condensing 100% and other times a varying percent, thus the need for finer cooling control. Thus in CM you are regularly adjusting water to the reflux or dephlag cooling section.
I'm running some rum as we speak and playing with heat and coolant balance. I was running too much heat during equalization and the vapor was overcoming the coil but being stopped dead by the coldfinger resulting in a flood. I can do it on command and understand where the balancing point is now. The coldfinger and coil combined is almost too much but I can deal with it ok. When I open the RC the temp drops like a rock and goes from a takeoff rate of 200ml in 2 minutes to a dead stop in 15 seconds. Fores come out at 95%.
Rig looks even more steam punk now than it did before too.
Here's a picture to compare to the coil-only pic in the OP.
tp
Last edited by T-Pee on Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Good stuff tpee!, mmm rum!. I did t realize you had the outer coil going too, need to read more!.
DAD300 wrote: Thus in CM you are regularly adjusting water to the reflux or dephlag cooling section.
200% incorrect!, even a shit design should hold steady once the takeoff is set, the problem.with shit designs is the lag times to get to a steady takeoff. I proper design should be easy to adjust to takeoff, that's why they have a bad rep, unsubstantiated comments. I can set mine for takeoff in about 30 seconds and it will stay that way the entire run.
Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems.
"Homer J Simpson"
I still may vacate the external coil now that I know what's going on. Believe me, right now even needle valve is almost too much and it takes VERY little adjustment to change things entirely. The coldfinger is that effective.
tp (blasting fruit flies off the parrot with a Bug-A-Salt for entertainment)
DAD300 wrote:Better yes, but there is no need for minute adjustment of the water flow through a VM or LM...in a VM or LM reflux coil you are always condensing 100% of the vapor...never a percentage.
In a CM you are sometimes condensing 100% and other times a varying percent, thus the need for finer cooling control. Thus in CM you are regularly adjusting water to the reflux or dephlag cooling section.
So if the condensor coil is below the take off why wouldn't this be considered a CM still? It's using variable levels of water cooling to determine the amount of reflux and take off.
Damn this is starting to hurt my brain. Think I might just build a pot still lol
What I'd love to do is put a sight glass in this tower to see exactly what's going on.
The coldfinger sits about 1-1/2" above the coil. The packing comes to just above the coil itself.
Ooo! I could position the sight glass with the coldfinger inside the viewing area!
"So if the condenser coil is below the take off why wouldn't this be considered a CM still? It's using variable levels of water cooling to determine the amount of reflux and take off. "
No...You adjust reflux by moving the coil up and down. Just like opening and closing a valve. The condenser coil is only below the take off for 100% reflux, if you raise the coil you allow vapor to escape through the takeoff. But the reflux coil is still condensing all vapor that gets to it.
You need to look at my first signature link, first page, first post.
"200% incorrect!, even a shit design should hold steady once the takeoff is set, the problem.with shit designs is the lag times to get to a steady takeoff. I proper design should be easy to adjust to takeoff, that's why they have a bad rep, unsubstantiated comments. I can set mine for takeoff in about 30 seconds and it will stay that way the entire run."
My understanding is that as Boiler ABV drops, to maintain Product ABV on a CM, you have to adjust the coolant flow to increase reflux. If you desire to maintain Product ABV.
The only thing I've ever seen fiddly about a CM is the need for constant water pressure and constant temp of cooling water. If you have constant water pressure and temp, I think CM would be great. I have neither.
I assure you I was trying to be as gentle as possible. In no way bashing CM... blackwaterstout is running a muck and I allowed him to drag me off post...I apologize.
