Aquarium pump, aquarium heater, and yeast in sugar wash

[pistachio_nut]

Just added a 55 gallon drum to my fermentor collection and got a Dr. Cone protocol sugar wash going per The Compleat Distiller, revised 2nd edition, Dec. 2010. The floor in my basement is always 58-62 degrees. I put the 55 gallon drum up on 1x3s to get them off the cement, and started with 30 gallons and 50# of sugar. The aquarium pump is in the drum about halfway down. When I turn it on, the wash kicks off a bunch of CO2. A couple times a day, I turn the pump on to give it all a good mix. What effect does that have on the wash?

I should get the aquarium pump HEATER in another day or two. Reading the board a little, some people put their heater in a glass jar and float it in the wash. I'm guessing that's to keep sugar from cooking onto the glass of the heater. Is that right? Once I put the heater in, should I just leave the aquarium pump on all the time?

I'm using DADY which prefers a more-warm environment. Should I switch to EC-1118 which prefers a colder environment? My washes are taking weeks to ferment and I would kind of like to move things along a little.

There is already yeast nutrient in the wash. If I boil some kale and grind it up with a sitck mixer to make some green soup, is it a bad idea to put that in a wash that already has nutrients?

Thanks for any help.

Edited: Aquarium pump should have read aquarium heater, 2nd paragraph. I think that's the only place I swapped a word, everything else looks right.

[ranger_ric]

PN,
When you say aquarium pump, are you saying you are moving fluid only or is an aquarium pump to push air into your wash. I typically aerate my wash good before I pitch my yeast and then leave everything alone until the yeast gets its work done. I know you dont want to introduce any oxygen to the wash after the yeast have taken off.
DADY does like things a little warmer. If that aquarium heater can warm it up a little you will be done in no time.

[Danespirit]

I also use a aquarium pump. Cheap one from e-bay will do.
Now the idea,is to give the yeast some oxygen at first stage.
Pumping air through the wash a few times a day, the first two days, promotes the propagation of yeast.
I found that particular usefull when using dry yeast, as the yeastcells in there are in a kind of stasis.
After airing like described, there should be enough yeast cells to let the ferment go on.
Leave it alone and let the CO2 produced by the cells "seal" the surface of your ferment.
I cap the container loosely with a natural rubber bung.(others use airlocks)
A couple of times during the first days,i release the "pressure" build up...the bung is conical and just sits lighly in there.
That way CO2 build up can escape, but no air from outside that might carry other stuff, could get into the ferment.
Further i add a crushed B-vitamine pill..yeast loves B-vitamine..so why not keep the small fellows happy? The reward you by pissing alcohol into your ferment.
I have not yet tried a aquarium heater..but sure..it would work, as long as it ain't to hot.
Some use heatblankets and other things to keep a temperature during cold days.
Most yeast is happy when the environment keeps from 15 to 40 C , some of the yeast is cultured to ferment at even lower temperatures down to 5 C.
My ferment is usually done within a week, depending on ambient temperature.
I use plain normal,cheap,bakers yeast. Funny..the yeast comes from the danish distillerys..guess they did not imagine me using it for a "sideproduction"
One of those packages 50 G is enough for 3X15 L of ferment. Cost here..0,95 Øre or 14 Cent.
So it ain't ripping a hole in my pocket to buy this yeast. Maybe some of the wine yeast you described , would give me less heads when distilling..would be worth a experiment.

yeast.jpg (5.43 KiB) Viewed 4691 times

[pistachio_nut]

I use an air pump to aerate, and I take it out after ~36 hours or so. I leave the aquarium pump in the wash and run it a couple times a day for a minute or two to gas off the wash and stir the liquid around. It takes about 15 seconds for everything to blend.

I tested the time to blend with food coloring in plain water. The dye seemed to spread out into maybe a quarter of the volume of the tank in about ten seconds, then went to completely mixed in the next few seconds. It was a pretty consistent time whether the pump was at the top, the bottom, or in the middle.

The first day under airlock it didn't gas off at all. The second day it would a little bit. It's been about a week now, and when I turn the aquarium pump it pins two airlocks to the ceiling. I can actually hear them whistle. That goes on for maybe as long as 30 seconds and then it settles back down.

I ordered a refractometer the other day, it should be here soon. When it gets here, I'll get my 2nd SG reading. OG was 1.083 (according to the chart) and I'm curious how much of the sugar was used by the yeast just to multiply.

In other washes I've got going, the DADY seems to take forever to get to where it's going. My thermometers are reading right around 70, and that's with heating pads and stuff.

I'm still curious about what happens in the wash when I drive off the CO2. Does that help the fermentation?

[ranger_ric]

PN
You should definitely do some reading over in the Fermentation section. There is so much information there.
I know that it is good to have the wash well aerated (Oxygen filled) when you put your yeast in. In that oxygenated state they will reproduce like crazy and take over the wash. Once the oxygen is depleting their eating starts to produce the alcohol and CO2. If you remove the CO2 I am not sure how that affects the little yeasties.
Once the yeast take off in my washes I just LEAVE them alone. Let em work, (I think it pisses them off when I micromanage them).
Yours is the first post that I have read about circulating the wash everyday, but then again I certainly haven't read every post on here.
Keep us posted so we can all learn with you.

[pistachio_nut]

I did do some more reading there, and stumbled across a couple terms that made information much easier to find. Agitation helped.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=10394
In which birdwatcher said

I know Stone's book says to agitate your wash constantly, however, I have never found it nessesary in the Birdwatcher Wash.
I do stir at least once daily during fermentation and I used to shake gently, after transferring to 23 liter carboys.

Now I do my entire wash (80 liters) in a 106 liter Rubbermaid storage container.

Works like a damn.

Cheers.

G

Then I wandered into a topic on homebrewtalk that said pumping a wash around after airlock would probably decrease fermentation time and dry out faster.

lamarguy said,

Agitation is certainly beneficial for decreasing fermentation time.

The jury is still out on potential flavor regressions (e.g., increased esters, fusels) compared to a non-stirred fermentation.

but he is MIA now for years, so what is the value of his contribution. Hard to say.

I suppose that after my current fermentation is over with, I can document a Cone protocol with aeration, agitation, non-aerated agitation, and SG's over time and at temp. See what there is to see.

Along the way, I wandered into a couple of interesting topics regarding aging shine in Ball jars.

[ranger_ric]

PN,
If your ferment room is consatntly below 70° then you will have better luck with a different yeast.
Over the winter my ferment room would make 70°F during the day and stay right around there for 14 hours, than overnight the temp would drop to 60°.
My ferment times were right around 7-8 days with DADY yeast on UJSSM. With the temps now always at least 70°my ferment times are right at 4 days.

Interesting about the agitation that you found. That just proves that if you ask 10 people on this site about particulars than you will get 20 answers...
I like your idea about experimenting. keep us informed...

To Stir or not to stir, that is the question...

[pistachio_nut]

24 hrs now with the aquarium heater. The barrel has about 30 gallons of wash and 50# sugar, and dropped from SG 1.047 to 1.032 in less than 24 hours. The temp of the barrel is 77*, up from 68*. Airlocks are not bubbling, but the airlocks will bubble to slight pressure on the lid. The liquid is still pumping around. That SG measurement change used to take me a week, not pumping and not heating.

That is a huge improvement. Maybe I don't need to switch from DADY to EC-1118.

Next step is to get ready for the additions. For this particular batch, it will be 7.25 pounds in 5.5 liters of water, plus chemicals when the SG drops below 1.016.

At the end I should have 48 gallons of wash with 111 pounds of sugar, and be somewhere between 16 and 18%.

ETA: I had the aquarium pump on for a week or so with almost no change in SG change, it was the heater that made all the difference. In the last few hours it's dropped to 1.030.

[pistachio_nut]

Between today and my last post, I have learned a thing or two. The DADY kind of fizzled out a few days ago and stuck at about 1.030. I added a bunch of nutrients and nothing much changed. That wash has been going for weeks now and isn't finishing out.

Yesterday I picked up my 500g bag of EC-1118 and put it in three washes. Two are 30l washes with DADY that got stuck around 1.030. In one, I put 20g rehydrated EC-1118 and in the other I sprinkled 20g on the top. The third is up to about 40 gallons and has about 70 pounds of sugar in it. The DADY pooped out at also around 1.030 and stayed there for a week. Yesterday I rehydrated 200g of EC-1118 in a liter of water at 105*F and gave it 20 minutes to think about things. This morning SG dropped to 1.018 and I got my sugar solution ready. I added it about 5 hours ago and SG is about 1.019, so I'm getting the next sugar solution ready to go. My plan is to get it to a little over 50 gallons with about 110 pounds of sugar for a 16-18% wash using the Dr. Cone protocol. I add about 10 pounds of sugar in about 5 liters of water every time the SG drops to 1.016, and it seems to take a couple hours to go through it.

It seems like the protocol is designed to get a population of yeast that will go through that much sugar in regular intervals by reducing the stress from changes in osmolarity. The ETOH% will change over time, but the osmolarity will be kept to a fairly tight range. By constantly agitating the wash, the CO2 concentration should stay fairly constant as well. This is just speculation on my part, but I think it could be an interesting hypothesis to test.

Or I could just email Dr. Cone.

[ranger_ric]

Out of curiosity If you are going to distill this why do you want your starting ABV to be soooo high. Especially with a sugar wash. Sugar washes are notorious for being a "hot" liquor. Perhaps that is what you are looking for I cant say. But 18% going into the still is probably not going to be very smooth.
If you are making fuel who cares but personally I wouldn't want to start that high. I am happy with 8%-9%.
Still Is...

[carbohydratesn]

ranger_ric is very right. 12% is the absolute maximum that I've seen recommended here.

How many days do your ferments take now? Looks like it's been at least 10 days...I've been having 30gal of 9% ferment dry with DADY in about 3-4 days. It takes less time to do two ferments at 9% than it does for one ferment at 18% - and it makes better alcohol at a lower ABV, too.

Your ferments are sticking because of the ABV you're aiming for - and adding more nutrients at that point can only stress the yeast out more. Treat them well and they'll work hard and fast for you.

I've found the yeast themselves do a great job of agitating the fermenter, especially in bigger containers. There's no need to stir if they're releasing a lot of CO2, it'll stir itself

[pistachio_nut]

Out of curiosity If you are going to distill this why do you want your starting ABV to be soooo high. Especially with a sugar wash. Sugar washes are notorious for being a "hot" liquor. Perhaps that is what you are looking for I cant say. But 18% going into the still is probably not going to be very smooth.
If you are making fuel who cares but personally I wouldn't want to start that high. I am happy with 8%-9%.
Still Is...

The purpose for this wash is to recreate the Dr. Cone protocol from The Compleat Distiller, revised edition, 2010. The wash starts at about 220 grams of sugar per liter and can ramp up to 400 grams of sugar per liter. The idea is to grow a colony of yeast, and then feed the yeast with additions of sugar solution that keeps a similar concentration of sugar, nutrients, etc. over time. It's not just dumping all the sugar in up front and having the concentration of nutrients and sugar crash the yeast population by 80% and then rebuild in less-than-ideal conditions.

I'm also kind of making it up as I go along.

Your suggestion that the wash pooped out due to the sugar concentration got me thinking, so I added a couple gallons of water to the fermentor. The SG dropped to 1.026 due to dilution, and the airlock might be a little more lively. I'll check the SG again this evening and see whether the water might have given it a little more life.

[Brutal]

My recommendations:

Stop adding sugar as you go along. That book likely has some good info but adding sugar as you go is not it. You are over thinking this by a whole lot. Try a tried and true recipe from this site and follow it. It's easy. UJSSM for example. Shoot for a starting specific gravity of 1.065-1.075 for best results and leave it alone.

Second thing, and I'm not sure why nobody brought it up, DADY yeast is made to work at 80+ degrees Fahrenheit. If you are fermenting at 70 it ain't gonna be happy, but a nice ale yeast meant for beer would be. Use yeast that will thrive in the conditions you have.

Your stuck ferments are likely due to PH dropping too low. It's a common problem and there are several ways to measure and combat it you will find on these forums.

Start making UJSSM, keep your hands off the ferments, and make some nice drinking stock. UJ is even good for making neutrals.

Happy stillin'

[carbohydratesn]

UJ is even good for making neutrals.

Hell yeah it is.

[pistachio_nut]

SG dropped to 1.018, no use in letting all that hungry yeast sit around doing nothing so I have another ten pound bag to drop on it in a couple hours. I'll wait until I get an official 1.016, and then it's ON.

pH at 4.1, I might add a little acid.

[ranger_ric]

[quote="pistachio_nut"][quote="ranger_ric"]

'I'm also kind of making it up as I go along. ' '

This is becoming quite evident.

If your pH is at 4.1 and you want to add acid, May we ask what your pH goal is?

Let us know how this all turns out, cause you got me scratching my head. Cant wait to see what you make up...

[pistachio_nut]

3.6 - 3.8

[carbohydratesn]

That's very acidic...yer goin' the wrong way. 5 to 5.5 is a good range to aim for, yeast aren't too happy when the pH is much lower...that'd be another reason for the slow/incomplete ferment.

[pistachio_nut]

That's very acidic...yer goin' the wrong way. 5 to 5.5 is a good range to aim for, yeast aren't too happy when the pH is much lower...that'd be another reason for the slow/incomplete ferment.

It looks like you were on the money.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/47170607/Ye ... l-pH-level" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

While not a desktop reference document, it looks like they did some of their homework. In the body of the paper they say that the lower pH samples formed more co2 quickly, but soon petered out. Higher pH solutions started off slower but their production of co2 climbed in time. That fits the pattern I've observed. OK, thanks. Next... raise the pH.

[skow69]

You're probably gonna want to check out activated carbon polishing to make that drinkable.

[ranger_ric]

After the activated carbon polishing you may want to check out some tried and true recipes too.

[pistachio_nut]

I got another batch of pH test strips that cover the range from 1-14, and it looks like I'm somewhere between 4 and 6, probably closer to 4. Maybe it'll read easier with an incandescent bulb instead of my fluorescents. A teaspoon of K2CO3 seems to be the medicine this wash needed. One tsp last night, and the SG dropped to 1.016, bubblers going more than double the rate they were going before. I didn't keep a super-careful eye on the potential ABV, but I noticed today that it dropped from about six, six and a half to four. Obviously that has to be adjusted due to the ETOH concentration in the barrel, and I haven't kept good enough records to figure it on a chart.

In any case, I have another bag of sugar cooling off in a freshly-boiled pot of water, so that will wind up in there in another hour or two. That'll make 90# of sugar in the tank, and I'm going to go for 110# total. That should give me about 15.5% if the table's right and it ferments dry.

[pistachio_nut]

With every batch of sugar I have added DAP and yeast nutrient, and K2CO3. My book said that yeast can operate in a pH range from 2.0-8.0, and the higher you go in pH the more likely you are to have an infection. I tried looking that information up in Brock's Biology of Microorganisms, but couldn't find anything to support/deny it. From what little I've found it seems like 5-6 is the maximum productivity. 5 might be more advantageous in preventing infection due to acidity, but 6 might be better at preventing infection due to a shortened fermentation time. In either case, it's tough for anything to take hold in a barrel full of EC-1118. It would be like sending missionaries to the cannibals. Not a position I would want to be in.

Stepping k2co3 into the wash over the last day or so, I bumped the pH up to 5, give or take. These test strips are the full range from 1-14 and my eyes can't tell the color gradations apart well enough to see whether it's 5.25 or 5.5, I'm happy I'm able to tell it's around 5.

SG just dropped to 1.016 again, so I have another pot full of sugar solution ready to go in as soon as it cools off. It looks like I'll make my 110# goal by Friday.

[pistachio_nut]

I have three sugar washes I'm riding herd on that all started pretty much the same, and all of them got stuck for the same reason. pH was too low. Thank you carbohydratesn for suggesting I change that. The paper I read supported a 5.0-6.0 pH for baker's yeast, with the higher pH being less likely to poop out and to finish quicker. Lower pH causes a very exciting run out of the gate followed quickly by a poop out.

I got all three sugar washes in 6.0 territory today, and then it seemed the nutrients were the deficiency. Added a bunch of nutrients and boom, off we went. SG dropping in all three. I used a tsp in the 55 gallon drum one at a time and gave it a couple hours, then rechecked pH. I suppose I used maybe six or eight tsp of k2co3 to bump it up from 4.1 to 6 +/-. All three are just chugging along nice and steady, hour after hour.

It's not moving as fast initially as it did at the lower pH, but it doesn't seem to be losing any steam. SG continues to drop. It hit 1.016 again this evening, so I'm going to get another 10# ready to drop before I go to bed. Maybe it'll finish Saturday or Sunday.

The big one is getting hard to smell. The amount of co2 coming off is kind of thick. The smell of the co2 reminds me a lot of the taste of diet coke.

For the yeast, I'm going to use the EC-1118 up in fermentations this spring and wait for the hot part of the summer to use the rest of the DADY.

[pistachio_nut]

Still waiting for it to dry out. I think I'll get my 16-18% and the wash tastes OK, so I doubt the flavor will be a big problem. This is taking a long time, though. If you guys can get a 55 gallon drum to 8% dry in a week... well, that's something.

I learned a few things.

1. Pay attention to the pH. I could have knocked two weeks off this fermentation if I would have controlled pH from day 1.

2. Use the correct yeast. For my temperatures and water, it's EC-1118 until summer, then I can get away with DADY or maybe red star bread yeast.

3. It's easier for me to put all my eggs in one basket and watch it like a hawk.

4. It's time to invest in some more equipment so I don't wind up getting frustrated with a lower-ABV wash.

I won't have a chance to run a part of this wash off until Wednesday at least, so no findings until then. It's at 1.008 and falling, measured before I gave it an extra three gallons of water to give everything a little more room to maneuver. pH of 6 and should remain right there for lots of happy fermentation.

Thank you gents for your advice. I appreciate it and took notes on everything.

[FtW]

For fast fermenting & a smoother drop, try a wash with a lower gravity. When this one is done get an extra fermenter & do double the batch shooting for 8 or 9%. It will be twice the stilling but same overall yield, then compare with some of the current batch & decide for yourself if high gravity washes are the way to go.
I started with high gravity sugar washes & found it frustrating that everything I made had too much bite to be enjoyable as a drink.

[ranger_ric]

+1 FTW

I could of run at least 3 batches of 8% UJSSM in the 21 days PN as been pushing this ferment. I would also have my spirit run done and have it aging...
And it makes an excellent drop when you get your cuts right..

[pistachio_nut]

For fast fermenting & a smoother drop, try a wash with a lower gravity. When this one is done get an extra fermenter & do double the batch shooting for 8 or 9%. It will be twice the stilling but same overall yield, then compare with some of the current batch & decide for yourself if high gravity washes are the way to go.
I started with high gravity sugar washes & found it frustrating that everything I made had too much bite to be enjoyable as a drink.

We'll see what happens on Wednesday. I should run off the first part of this wash then and see what we got. Part of the idea of running the fermentation this way is because the SG never got or stayed high. The highest it got was on the initial 30 gallons, then it spent most of its time at 1.016-1.045, which is not what I would consider high gravity. Years ago I started with turbos. I don't like turbos at all, they smell and taste like Georgia Moon. Yuck.

I had a little taste of the wash a minute ago and it didn't have any off taste or harshness to it. I've heard that other people's washes are so good they never get around to distilling it. They just sample and sample and sample. This tastes fine, I give it a 5/10.

This fermentation took a good month to get to where it is now, SG 1.004 and falling, pH looks close to 6.0. Wherever it settles out on Wednesday is where it's going to get run.

[pistachio_nut]

+1 FTW

I could of run at least 3 batches of 8% UJSSM in the 21 days PN as been pushing this ferment. I would also have my spirit run done and have it aging...
And it makes an excellent drop when you get your cuts right..

It's actually been a little longer. Probably a month. I would say that half of that time I left it stuck at 1.030 due to a pH in the 3.4-3.8 range before carbohydratesn had me check what that's supposed to be. Also, I was using DADY and the temp of the wash was consistently below 70F, which is out of the range for that yeast. The aquarium heater didn't get into the barrel until the 2nd week or so, and I didn't pitch the EC-1118 until a week after that. If I would have started with the pH dialled in it probably would have been about two weeks.

I guess that'll be my next fermentation.

[rad14701]

If you really don't want to listen to reason and experience then just use turbo yeast and stop dicking around... You can make wretched spirits a lot easier and quicker that way... Or you can listen to experience and reason and shoot for lower gravity washes that produce superior spirits... It's your choice, time, aggravation, and money... But in my honest opinion you don't haven't amassed enough knowledge and experience to be experimenting even if it's trying to follow this Dr. Cones bad advice...