Newb With Questions.

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Wed May 13, 2015 7:49 pm

Greetings.

Like many others, I am a home brewer that is now interested in home fuel production. I have a wedding coming up later this year, and thought that it would be nice to provide some classy mason jar lamps for the tables along with our many bottles of home brew.

I ordered a copper pot still with thumper and worm from an eBay merchant with a solid reputation, and recently received my permit for fuel production.

As per many suggestions, I prepared a sacrificial mash. This was simply 8lb white sugar with 5gal water and two packs of bakers' yeast. Although fermentation was incomplete after two weeks, I cold crashed the wash to settle the yeast and ran it. Because this was a rushed procedure, gravity was not measured.

Upon distillation, the first 2oz were obscenely cloudy and subsequently discarded as foreshots without being measured for alcohol content. Subsequent collection was measured and evaluated at 3oz intervals. The next few collections retained some clouding and read at approximately 50%ABV. These were assumed to be heads. The next 1.2qt yielded 40%ABV with little to no clouding and were assumed to be hearts. After this, collected material dropped rapidly in ABV. The last collection yielded 20%ABV. I ended the run when I had collected 2qt in total.

Of the two quarts collected, the first quart jar to be filled with heads/hearts shows dense clouding at the very bottom of the jar. The second jar containing hearts/tails shows many small clouds (<50% the diameter of a dime) all throughout the liquid.

Is this clouding something associated with why one runs the sacrificial wash, or is it something else?

I currently have a 5gal wash that has been fermenting quite slowly that will soon (I hope) make for a second run. It was made with 8lb cane sugar, 4oz organic molasses and one package of Red Star champagne yeast (just because I had it on hand). OG was measured at 1.061 on 4-26-15 and the wash has been maintained indoors at a temperature range of 72-78 degrees. It is still audibly fizzing away releasing the bubble lock once every 7-10 seconds. Is this extended fermentation time due to lack of yeast nutrient?

Once the results from this second wash are in, I intend to try two different washes that I would like your input on. The first idea is to mash 10lb of Fawcett Optic malt and ferment it with two packages of bakers' yeast pitched with 2tsp of yeast nutrient from the homebrew shop.
The second idea is to use 7lb of Columbian panela with two packages of bakers' yeast and a handful of chopped raisins as nutrient. Subsequent washes of this style would consist of 20% dunder.

Thank you all for reading my little novel and for any advice you may have.

StillLearning1 · Post by **StillLearning1** » Wed May 13, 2015 9:24 pm

Let me be the first to say congrats on getting married! My wedding was just 11 days ago. We had mason jars for center pieces also. Set them in some slabs of wood with sunflowers on the jars. Looked beautiful!!!

Be careful with that fuel permit. From what I read on here the law can come to your place at any time with no notice and if you have some sippin jars around its really bad business.

Sac run is to help flush all the machining oils, flux, ect. From your still so yes some cloudiness is expected. I usually do cleaning runs until its gone but that's just me.

StillLearning1 · Post by **StillLearning1** » Wed May 13, 2015 9:25 pm

Forgot to mention. Look for the post called spoon feeding for newbs. Should answer a lot of your question.

NgrainD · Post by **NgrainD** » Thu May 14, 2015 5:58 am

Did you do a water/steam run first followed by a water/vinegar run before that sac run? If not, ya may want to start over and let the second wash be the second sac run. Speaking of wash#2, it prolly is slow cuz of lack of nutrients for the yeast. By the way, are you using tried and true recipes? May want to check those out, they'll answer a lot of your questions about what will and won't work. They aren't just recipes cut and dry, they have a lot of discussion included, of many people asking questions similar to yours.
Good luck
Stay safe and still well friend.
On a side note, if all you are making is fuel there is no need to waste money on malts and molasses. Just get some sugar, and turbo yeast and go.

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Thu May 14, 2015 9:18 am

Thanks for the feedback.

The guy who made the still said he ran it with water to test the seals. Upon delivery, I ran water again until I got about a pint. At that point the fuel expired, and I had not used it again until the sac run.

I read in a few places that vinegar is not recommended unless there is heavy buildup within the still, as the acidic nature of the vinegar can corrode the copper.

With regard to recipes, I have read quite a bit of the tried and true suggestions among several forums (such recipes are the basis for the two I have suggested).

Although it would be nice to create a product for consumption, it is a felony to distill alcohol for anything other than fuel in my area. As such, efforts towards that endeavor are all I will be discussing on this lovely public forum.

I assume a paper trail for this would have already been established by ordering from the guy on eBay, so not obtaining a permit for lawful use of the equipment seemed like a poor choice.

Tokoroa_Shiner · Post by **Tokoroa_Shiner** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:59 pm

Not sure where you read about not using vinegar. But it wasn't on this site. A vinegar run is 100% absolutely needed.

Post by **Danespirit** » Thu May 14, 2015 3:05 pm

Welcome in Shyrac..
You will find a abundance of information on this site..please take a look at the link in my signature.
Well, vinegar doesn't corrode copper...unless you leave it in there for a very long time ( water also react with copper).
It's definatly the best alternative to clean a still, if one doesn't have any feints.

Stay safe and have fun..

woodshed · Post by **woodshed** » Thu May 14, 2015 3:13 pm

The permit just let's them know where you are at.
The possible paper trail from your still supplier just let's them know you are not producing fuel as no one who is trying to produce fuel economically(not doable by anyone at home) would use a pot still to do so.
Your recipes assure the rest of us that you are not producing fuel.
90% of the members here produce spirits under the radar, also known as illegally.

Call it what you will but know we know the difference and so does the TTB.

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Thu May 14, 2015 3:46 pm

The information regarding non-use of vinegar was included on a CD full of PDF files provided by the manufacturer. As the abundance of information now tilts the scales toward use of diluted vinegar, this will be my next step if a subsequent test wash proves cloudy.

With regard to legality... I would be quite foolish to assume such specific wordplay would immunize one from prosecution; however, trumpeting one's intent to violate the law via a public record doesn't sit right with me.

Post by **Kegg_jam** » Thu May 14, 2015 4:20 pm

Maybe you had some puking going on. Do the vinegar run, and get a birdwatchers started for a sac run.

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Thu May 14, 2015 8:32 pm

What about simply adding my original half gallon of cloudy distillate back into 3 gallons of water instead of making another sac mash? Would the undesirable cloudy particles not remain in the primary vessel to be discarded after?

Post by **Danespirit** » Fri May 15, 2015 4:16 am

Yes..splendid..just throw it in there and do another run.
BUT!!!! a cleaningrun is NOT to be consumed..it is what it is..for cleaning.
So do not drink any of your "fuel"..
With all respect to the manufacturer..vinegar is unmatched to clean a new still..regardless of copper or stainless.
(If it can't burn..the motor won't turn!)

Post by **Kegg_jam** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:15 am

I need to make some more fuel for my mower..

: ImageUploadedByTapatalk1431695721.668447.jpg (36.92 KiB) Viewed 2803 times

NgrainD · Post by **NgrainD** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:36 am

Putting too much "fuel" in that mower will have you mowing crooked lines.

Post by **HDNB** » Fri May 15, 2015 6:03 am

I ran over 6 gallons of distillate (60 gal.wash?) through... that all had flux contamination, before i realized i forgot to do a vinegar run. (so eager to go I actually forgot-did not neglect

) one soak with 7% pickling vinegar, followed by a vinegar run and the next run (sac run) came out cloudy on the fores and heads. every run since then has been crystal clear, until the tails set in.

if you put the cloudy shit back in, you will have to do another run to clean it out.

flux is an excellent purgative.

just sayin. actual experience, not just regurgitated info.

Post by **jedneck** » Fri May 15, 2015 7:50 am

Kegg_jam wrote:I need to make some more fuel for my mower..
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1431695737.601547.jpg

I use the same kind of mower. The damn things take alot of ruel to work.

Post by **dstaines** » Fri May 15, 2015 9:28 am

Shyrac wrote: I have a wedding coming up later this year, and thought that it would be nice to provide some classy mason jar lamps for the tables along with our many bottles of home brew.

If I understand you right, your plan is to distill your own alcohol fuel to power alcohol fired lamps for the tables at a wedding?

I'm pretty interested in that, is there a particular design that you're following to build those, or are you going to buy the lamps somewhere?

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Fri May 15, 2015 9:38 am

Alrighty then...

Just finished making 5.5gal of birdwatcher that came out to 1.080 (I had to use a bit of brown sugar to make up for a minor shortfall on the white). That beast is already one of the most active fermentations I have ever seen.

Got a gallon of distilled white vinegar while I was out at the grocery for cleaning. Should I just mix that with 2gal of water?
The information available on the associated topic (http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 63&t=15489) simply refers to dillluted vinegar.

Since patience is the key to good beer (which also appears true in this hobby), I'll simply ditch that first run of cloud and sac either the birdwatcher I made 15min ago or the aforementioned slow fermenting sugar/molasses wash I made last month.

...I'm eager to mow some crooked designs in the front yard.

dstaines wrote:
Shyrac wrote: I have a wedding coming up later this year, and thought that it would be nice to provide some classy mason jar lamps for the tables along with our many bottles of home brew.
If I understand you right, your plan is to distill your own alcohol fuel to power alcohol fired lamps for the tables at a wedding?

I'm pretty interested in that, is there a particular design that you're following to build those, or are you going to buy the lamps somewhere?

I'm just going to punch a hole in the center of a lid and thread a cotton wick through it into the fuel. Depending on how these work out they may be used as fuel pods for the buffet.

Post by **Danespirit** » Fri May 15, 2015 1:23 pm

Why run the lamps on alcohol?
You should know it's a lot more dangerous than running normal fuel for such lamps....
Ok....a now come up with the real reason why you joined in here.....!

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Fri May 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Why?

Well a significant theme to the wedding is hand made local goods. I've spent the last week picking local berries to make jam for guest gifts, the wife is making dried flower arrangements of local flora, we will be serving a locally raised hog smoked on site, much of our beer and wine will be produced by ourselves, etc...

As to safety, I must disagree. Fill a shot glass with 50%ABV+, and light it up. Only the vapor escaping on top is burning. The liquid below remains. Producing small lamps via 4oz jars partially filled with fuel at a percentage just high enough to burn would be quite safe IMO. We will see what happens when the test lamp goes live.

Post by **rad14701** » Fri May 15, 2015 3:42 pm

Greetings, Shyrac...

I'd think long and hard about having Molotov Cocktails on every table at a wedding reception... Just doesn't sound like the smartest thing to do... Aside from that, your pot still is going to have a hard time making enough decent spirits of high enough proof to burn cleanly... Sure it can be done, but why...??? As has been mentioned, you're not fooling anyone with your story about producing fuel... You purchased the wrong tool for the job if you really really want to make fuel...

And as for that wonderful CD/DVD that has been pirated and copied by virtually every less than reputable still seller on eBay, just break in half as it's filled with useless garbage...

And, finally, do you have pictures of your still...??? You never mentioned the size but, more importantly, we want to make sure what you purchased is safe... If it isn't we will give advice on how to make it safe...

You're where you need to be to learn so forget everything you thought you learned before joining... Your posts to date show just how disillusioned you are... Hey, honesty hurts at times and the best thing to do is to lick your wounds and learn from your mistakes...

Good luck, stay safe, and enjoy the journey...

Post by **S-Cackalacky** » Fri May 15, 2015 4:19 pm

You could MAKE candles.

Post by **HDNB** » Fri May 15, 2015 4:19 pm

the old man, (60+ at the time) had a couple shots at my wedding. dancing with an older aunt. music picked and a slip on the floor, both were in a heap. a table leg got kicked. a candle fell.
happy memories, it was all rather comedic.

imagine that when the jar full of flammable liquid hit the floor exploding into a ball of flames, soaking the two old folks in burning alcohol. probably not a memory most would want to have. did i ever tell you about the time my gasoline soaked pants caught fire and the third degree burns on 20% of the carcass....

ahhhh... more fond memories of actual experiences. i gotta quit rambling so much.

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:10 pm

Here is an image from the manufacturer. What I received is almost identical.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/ ... 7/$_57.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
As previously stated, it is a copper pot unit with a worm and thumper. The capacity is 5gal.

Regarding advisability of lamps... note that the idea has not even been tested yet. In my experience, the 4oz jars in question are quite resilient with regard to minor impacts up to and including toppling from a table. The aperture allowing for only the wick to pass would limit spillage, and I would be disinclined to fill the units with more than 2oz charges. Even if the lamp idea proves inadvisable (which there are obviously many reasons it COULD), they may still serve as adequate sources of heat for the hotel pans on the buffet line.
I'll be happy to GoPro a stress test and link it to those interested once the requisite materials are available.
The results I have had using the more potent of the clouded distillate previously discussed leads me to believe the idea is not void of merit.

Concerning legality and declarations of intent... that topic has already been addressed to its full potential.

What level of dilution should I seek with regard to the vinegar run?

Post by **HDNB** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:28 pm

i'd think 2L plus 4-6L of water would be good. i have been doing a soak in 7% vingar for a few hour too, but that's may be overkill. lets say i learned the hard way so i don't under- do cleaning anymore.

for some strange reason there's still a bit (lot) of pyromaniac in me so i'm all for controlled tests. the only thing i like better than fire is things that go boom. (controlled environment, all practical safety in mind, kinda mythbusters stuff)

keep your wits about you.

Post by **HDNB** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:36 pm

oh, nice rig BTW. definitely needs a superior cleaning effort. thumps small by experienced users measure (one third to one half boiler volume suggested) and the flake is a bit small, you will likely need a water input (to the bottom) and water exit at the top to keep your cool for a longer run.

should make a drop if you are careful tho. make sure you have no plastic/synthetics in there. they taste bad and can't possibly be good for the liver and kidneys.

cheers, happpy stilling. stay safe!

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:57 pm

Oh my, I totally didn't notice that difference. My condenser does indeed have the connections for constant water flow. I used it to prep the laundry machine with warm water during my last run.

The only plastic in use is the ROPAK fermenter bucket. Everything else is glass or copper.

I just tested the champagne yeast wash, and I was dismayed to record 1.029. It has been 20 days now, and it appears to be only halfway fermented.

Post by **HDNB** » Sat May 16, 2015 7:54 am

the difference in what?

Champagne yeast is slow. as you now know. you could always pitch something over it, but then you won't know the flavour. damn, that patience is hard to get into a botttle.

maybe try an ale yeast or a bakers yeast. apparently, bakers like it hot and fast. (i think i saw that on a t shirt somewhere)

Post by **jedneck** » Sat May 16, 2015 8:12 am

n the lamp idea remember that alckhol when burning burns with a near invisible flame. Even if they don't get knocked over, somebody reaching across the table could get burned.

Shyrac · Post by **Shyrac** » Sat May 16, 2015 3:03 pm

HDNB wrote:the difference in what?

Champagne yeast is slow. as you now know. you could always pitch something over it, but then you won't know the flavour. damn, that patience is hard to get into a botttle.

maybe try an ale yeast or a bakers yeast. apparently, bakers like it hot and fast. (i think i saw that on a t shirt somewhere)

The cited difference refers to the presence of water apertures on the flake. I failed to notice that the image I posted did not include those.

I'm all for patience, as getting things done right is much more important. I expect that birdwatcher batch will be finished prior to the champagne yeast batch. Tis a race to the finish line to determine who gets sac'd.

Given the inexpensive nature of birtdwatcher's, I am inclined to do this a few more times to learn the right temps and such before putting my malts and quality sugars to work. Given the cost of local ingredients, I can make BW for about $1.25/gal.

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