Stuck 55 gal blackstrap

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:55 pm

this is a third gen wash, i only use about 10 gal of backset to a 55 gal drum.

after fermenting out the sugar in the molasses, i added 20 lbs of sugar and it fermented that off. added another 20lb sugar and it seemed to stall.

took PH reading and it is at 4.4.

so after searching here, i need to up my PH. but with my searches i could not find out what to use. bunch of different ideas floating around.

Baking soda? how much?

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:08 am

A) a ph of 4.4 will not cause a stuck ferment
B) how do you know it's stuck? Without this info we can be of no help at all.

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:21 am

bellybuster wrote:A) a ph of 4.4 will not cause a stuck ferment
B) how do you know it's stuck? Without this info we can be of no help at all.

oh, i just read a post that someone said 4.7 was low, so figured 4.4 was way worse. sorry.

Whenever i add more sugar to the barrel, after a few hours i can hear it working, as well i keep it in a large oven to maintain temp, whenever i open the door i can always smell/feel the Co2 it puts off, but not since adding the last batch of sugar. i thought maybe i let the ferment go to low before i added it.

The yeast I'm using is distillers http://homebrewsupplies.ca/product/2245 ... east-1-lb/ i add a tsp of DAP when i add the extra sugar.

It still has a bit of sweetness to the wash, and temp is 25*C/77*F

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:42 am

How much fermentable sugar was there in the molasses?

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:59 am

NZChris wrote:How much fermentable sugar was there in the molasses?

i used 13gal of molasses, and the ingredients card says "total sugars as invert" 35%, so 4.2gal of sugar converts to 29.63lbs

goose eye · Post by **goose eye** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:18 am

Ole boys aint messed with much rum but you sayin 29 lbs of suger to
the barrel if I read it right. 1/2 lb to gal aint much

So I'm tole

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:38 am

goose eye wrote:Ole boys aint messed with much rum but you sayin 29 lbs of suger to
the barrel if I read it right. 1/2 lb to gal aint much

So I'm tole

29lbs from the molasses, but after that has fermented, i added another 20lbs, then let that ferment again and add another 20 lbs of sugar. so a total of about 70lbs
i add it gradually, so it does not get the SG to high for the yeast as i read in buccaneer bobs recipe.

Post by **S-Cackalacky** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:39 am

Sounds like you might have used up all the nutrients. The nutes you had in the original molasses was probably only enough to get you so far. The teaspoon of DAP you're adding with 20 lbs. of sugar probably ain't near enough for that volume of wash.

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:53 am

S-Cackalacky wrote:Sounds like you might have used up all the nutrients. The nutes you had in the original molasses was probably only enough to get you so far. The teaspoon of DAP you're adding with 20 lbs. of sugar probably ain't near enough for that volume of wash.

okay, ill get another bag of DAP and add some of it.

would it help to bring up the PH or is 4.4 okay?

will i have to add more yeast or is it still alive?

crazy · Post by **crazy** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:09 am

There are many things that can be added for nutrients if you are out of DAP , some use tomato paste which is easily found in most kitchens . If your set on raising the ph , you can use pickling lime or oyster shells . Pitching more yeast won't hurt anything either . There has been many saved ferments before anyone knew what a homebrew store was , using common items out of the kitchen or farm .

Post by **S-Cackalacky** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:22 am

Take it a step at a time. Add the DAP and see if it fires off again. I can't tell you how much to use - I use tomato paste. I don't think the PH is a low enough to be a problem, but it wouldn't hurt to jack it up into the 5's. You can get crushed oyster shells at a feed store and throw in a couple of hands full, or you could add some calcium carbonate a tablespoon at a time until you get it up to where you want it. But, I wouldn't worry so much about PH at this point so much as getting the yeast active.

For the long run, I would suggest a good Tried and True rum recipe. Something like Pugi's rum or Hook rum. Those recipes have been fine tuned with the proper ingredients and successfully made many times by the members here. They only find there way to the "Tried and True Recipes" forum after close member scrutiny and recommendation by the forum membership.

Posted while Crazy was posting.

Post by **rad14701** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:47 pm

Nutrients have definitely been expended... If you were to add tomato paste for nutrients I'd recommend adjusting the pH up as the paste is acidic...

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:15 pm

do you have a hydrometer??? not being able to "smell" CO2 is no way to say a ferment is stuck

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:02 am

rad14701 wrote:Nutrients have definitely been expended... If you were to add tomato paste for nutrients I'd recommend adjusting the pH up as the paste is acidic...

Good to know about the tomato paste and it changing the PH, thank you. Surprisingly enough i didn't have any in the cupboard.

bellybuster wrote: do you have a hydrometer??? not being able to "smell" CO2 is no way to say a ferment is stuck

Yes i do, but as i have read a few times on here, they are not that accurate when it comes to molasses washes. so i have been using my tongue to judge it but i will drop it in and see what it says.
As far as "smelling" the CO2 goes, that last batches i have smelt CO2 present even after it slowed down and was in the final stages of its ferment. When i have added the sugar to the previous runs and i opened the door to the oven and it doesn't try to knock me unconscious from lack of oxygen in the air, my suspicions where raised.

Thank you all for your assistance.

Post by **nerdybrewer** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:54 am

Crushed oyster shells, it will only use them if it needs them.
I can't tell when it's done from the taste because of the unfermentable sugar in blackstrap.
I can't tell when it's done from the hydrometer because - well see above.
If it's in the mid 4's for PH and you add sugar and it takes off then you have most likely used up all the sugar and have a barrel of goodness ready to run.
Either keep adding sugar or run it, or let it sit and settle for a while then run it.
From my experience it sounds like it's done.

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:43 pm

solids or not a hydrometer will tell you when a wash is not fermenting

Post by **shadylane** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:05 pm

55 gallon ferment in an oven?

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:09 am

shadylane wrote:55 gallon ferment in an oven?

This was oven oven as it was being built, the oven is mainly for powdercoating but seems to work great for maintaining temp.

Post by **Odin** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:09 pm

Interesting to see where this goes. I have the same issue with my blackstrap. One generation goes fine, but if I leave like a little sludge at the bottom and use some backset and fresh blackstrap to fire gen two ... it goes wrong. It starts fermenting, then stops. After a day. Not that it is done. Far from it.

I have now seen this happen three times in a row. Gen 1 is okay, gen 2 ... is problematic.

I took pH readings and found it continuously went down to 4.4/4.5. I used lots of BiCarb to up pH and could get it to 5.0 for a while only. Lots of reaction, but not sure if it started fermenting for a little while, or wheather it was just the BiCarb still reacting out a bit. I also added extra additional nutrients. Didn't make a difference either. Less molasses (blackstrap again) on the second generation and some additional sugar instead? It dropped dead again.

My best guess is that blackstrap has a lot of gunk in it. Things that might be pretty close to toxic to the yeast. And since they settle at the bottom, adding new blackstrap would just introduce more toxicity? Not sure if that's the explanation. Willing to trade it in for a better one (and start my current gen 2 back up again).

Regards, Odin.

Post by **shadylane** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:40 pm

Power_Man
Yes, that's an oven that can hold a 55 gallon fermenter.

Odin
I wonder if there's a preservative used in blackstrap that's toxic to yeast that builds up with each use of dunder?

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:42 am

Odin wrote:Interesting to see where this goes. I have the same issue with my blackstrap. One generation goes fine, but if I leave like a little sludge at the bottom and use some backset and fresh blackstrap to fire gen two ... it goes wrong. It starts fermenting, then stops. After a day. Not that it is done. Far from it.

I have now seen this happen three times in a row. Gen 1 is okay, gen 2 ... is problematic.

I took pH readings and found it continuously went down to 4.4/4.5. I used lots of BiCarb to up pH and could get it to 5.0 for a while only. Lots of reaction, but not sure if it started fermenting for a little while, or wheather it was just the BiCarb still reacting out a bit. I also added extra additional nutrients. Didn't make a difference either. Less molasses (blackstrap again) on the second generation and some additional sugar instead? It dropped dead again.

My best guess is that blackstrap has a lot of gunk in it. Things that might be pretty close to toxic to the yeast. And since they settle at the bottom, adding new blackstrap would just introduce more toxicity? Not sure if that's the explanation. Willing to trade it in for a better one (and start my current gen 2 back up again).

Regards, Odin.

Do you clarify your molasses first?
My first two runs went fine (clarified the molasses) even when i added backset and left trub on the bottom of barrel. This last one i did not clarify, and when i put in the hydrometer the thing basically stood up on its own at 1.15!! yes you read that right. i pushed it down and it moved down and kind of stayed there. it didn't act normal. I'm not sure what has happened with this batch, i may try to run it mixed with water to thin it out some after i let it settle nice and long.

Post by **Odin** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:26 am

No, but that's off course the trick. 50/50 water/molasses, heat up to 85 degrees C. Gunk settles at the bottom. Draw off above that and work with that.

Regards, Odin.

Power_Man · Post by **Power_Man** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:38 pm

Odin wrote:No, but that's off course the trick. 50/50 water/molasses, heat up to 85 degrees C. Gunk settles at the bottom. Draw off above that and work with that.

Regards, Odin.

Try that and report back. Maybe that's our issue as the SG is getting to high.
Next batches I will go back to clarifying. Just takes a while to clarify 12-15gal of blackstrap.
I added DAP and it seem to start back up, but not super fast. Been sitting awhile though, lack of O2 might of been issue.

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