air cooled project

nomoon · Post by **nomoon** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:12 pm

I'm leaning towards an air cooled condenser after some thought. I want to be able to do this without a supply of water because I want to do this on the second floor of an unplumbed barn.
I found this at Home Depot. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-Fi ... /202312893" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Nice price, nice length. For Mason Jar and Shadylane... Do you think 3 ft will be enough? There is also a 4 ft for 40.00.
Other than the fins, I need a fan and the connecting pluming. That's about it, right? It sounds too simple.
Thanks

Post by **FreeMountainHermit** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:19 pm

Mason Jar has done well with his five footer even when run WFO running h2o so I'd contact him via PM for some firsthand input.

JMHO

Post by **pfshine** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:23 pm

I would go with the 4' just in case for the summer months. I would also go with a bunch of computer fans on it for cooling to save space and maximum efficiency.

Post by **shadylane** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:37 pm

Those finned tubes will condense 500-600 watts per foot with a fan blowing on them.
Without a fan maybe 125-150w per foot

jb-texshine · Post by **jb-texshine** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:11 pm

shadylane wrote:Those finned tubes will condense 500-600 watts per foot with a fan blowing on them.
Without a fan maybe 125-150w per foot

My question is whether or not they would work with a turkey fryer burner...not sure of btu's made by grillsmith model tf2005102-gs-00

Post by **pfshine** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:13 pm

There is a calc on the parent site to tell you how many btu per watt.

Post by **shadylane** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:46 pm

jb-texshine wrote:
shadylane wrote:Those finned tubes will condense 500-600 watts per foot with a fan blowing on them.
Without a fan maybe 125-150w per foot

My question is whether or not they would work with a turkey fryer burner...not sure of btu's made by grillsmith model tf2005102-gs-00

There's too many variables for me to figure out how many BTU's a burner can heat a pot. But a rough idea can be had from the amount of liquid that comes out of the condenser. Long story short. 6 to 10 feet of finned tubing with a fan should work.
Just a guess, that's enough to condense all the vapor that a keg still can produce without puking on a stripping run.

Post by **shadylane** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:02 pm

Here's two links and if I remember right mason jar's post had multiple links.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=54596
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=56652
I think this might be the simplest and cheapest way to make an air cooled condenser.
It's a modification of Mason Jar's excellent idea.

Post by **FreeMountainHermit** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:09 am

More than one way to skin a cat. There's been several threads about going this way and using a reservoir.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281581511407?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Post by **Danespirit** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:12 am

FreeMountainHermit wrote:More than one way to skin a cat. There's been several threads about going this way and using a reservoir.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281581511407?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Indeed a good option too..
Also have a look at Swags build here... http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=55849
It's a very nice build and could give you some inspiration ,too.

Dan P. · Post by **Dan P.** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:35 am

I do my stilling in an unplumbed building too. It doesn't have electricity either, so I've gone for the old fashioned worm + hogshead, which has been perfect for still charges up to ca. 60 litres.
I did try and use a smaller keg, I think it was a firkin size, using a tube with multiple baffles as a condenser, which did not cut the mustard, volume of coolant was too small, and I had to add more cold water at several stages during the run. The baffle/pipe was probably not very efficient either. If I were to try something similar, I might use a wall-less shotgun in at least 3x still charge worth of water coolant. It's a drag to get the water out to the shed, but it lasts a good while. I don't put any preservative in mine, I just drain it when it starts to get nasty, which does take a while, especially if you are using it a lot.

Post by **raketemensch** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:47 am

I picked up the same thing from Home Depot on Monday, I'll be building it into my first still this weekend.

I read many pages of another thread in which mason was thinking about building that box fan, but the thread ended before anyone tried building it. So glad to see the picture, now I can finally find the real build thread for it. :]

Post by **still_stirrin** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:24 am

Hey shady, that thing is starting to look more and more like a car radiator. I wonder if....
ss

nomoon · Post by **nomoon** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Compact Air Condenser
Postby francis » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:59 pm

I just wrap unrolled copper pot scrubbers around the top half of the worm and it increases the radiative surface area enough to do the job, air cooled.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 9&start=90
Its on the fourth page of this thread. THAT is simplicity. I wonder if I could run a line from the second floor of my barn to the first floor (its barn so there is not walls stopping one from falling off). Something that large would a be pain to store but pretty fun looking.
I'm glad this thread is getting some conversations because for now I am going with a PVC Liebig that I am thinking up right now. I might have a pic today or tomorrow of this build. The air cooled will always be in my head, however. Talk about simplicity, ease of use, etc...

Dan P. · Post by **Dan P.** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:17 am

still_stirrin wrote:Hey shady, that thing is starting to look more and more like a car radiator. I wonder if....
ss

Move along now sir.

Post by **cranky** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:10 pm

I came across a new small car radiator a while back at goodwill for $10 or $15 and didn't buy it because the only thing I could think was how it would look in the event I wound up on the news. The law would make it seem like I was using it as a product condenser instead of just for cooling water in a recirculation system. Wish I had bought it, it would have been very helpful. Next time I come across one I will.

Post by **shadylane** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:46 pm

still_stirrin wrote:Hey shady, that thing is starting to look more and more like a car radiator. I wonder if....
ss

That's the problem with an air-cooled condenser, when building one that's efficient it looks like a car radiator.
I'd like to find something like the Trane air conditioners use. It looks like a fuzzy copper tube.
Sadly the only thing similar that I can find has 1/4" tubing and that's too small for safety reasons.
It sure would look cool, to have a fuzzy copper worm with a fan blowing on it .

Maxximus Flavius · Post by **Maxximus Flavius** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:28 pm

Doesn't anyone remember the C.H.I.L.L.E.R.? I do, because I use it on every run for up to 14 hours on 80 liters of rain water recirculating the entire time.

Post by **Danespirit** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:53 am

Oh..yes..i sure remember that build.
Very professional way to build a still...i also love the unusual design.
It's a beauty..and bookmarked in here.

nomoon · Post by **nomoon** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:03 am

A thought... Does the length of the condenser matter? What if there was a really long coil (4-5ft tall) that has a piece of aluminum sheeting folded over it to make a fin?
Maybe?

Angel_Kefka · Post by **Angel_Kefka** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:24 am

Length does matter. Longer tube at the same vapor speed means more time for the heat to transfer. If it was long enough a coil through the air would condense alcohol, but that length is no where near practical.

The way I see it the factors are as follows:
-time vapor is in contact with condenser. Effected by length and vapor speed.
-vapor speed. Slower means longer contact with condenser, more time to cool vapors. Effected by diameter of condenser and power input to boiler.
- ability of condenser to shed heat absorbed from vapor. If it heats to the point that it no longer condenses its useless. Effected by heat transfer capability of coolant (water is better than air), speed of coolant, and contact area.
-temp of coolant also comes into play, and will vary based on water source, or for air cooled based on weather.

Post by **Danespirit** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:53 am

+1 Angel kefka

Besides the factor you mentioned, there is a lso a factor of thermal mass in the equation.
This is particulary true on a aircondenser.
More lenght, means more mass that can draw energy out of the vapor.

Edwin Croissant · Post by **Edwin Croissant** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:23 am

shadylane wrote:I think this might be the simplest and cheapest way to make an air cooled condenser.
It's a modification of Mason Jar's excellent idea.

In the book: Denatured or industrial alcohol by Rufus Frost Herrick printed in 1907 I came across a "goose condenser" in page 108:

At the expense of a little bit more copper you can stack the elements side by side.

Post by **raketemensch** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:04 pm

So, I made my first (water) run today, using a baseboard radiator and a box fan, and I'm still amazed at how well it worked. We had one of those laser temperature guns, and we were seeing a 40-50 degree temperature drop over 8 inches of pipe. Condensate was coming out cooler than the air temperature.

We used a 5 foot length of it, since a friend had donated it and we wanted to really test it. In the end, we probably could have gotten away with a single foot of it, but we were only using a hot plate for a heat source, on a 4-gallon stock pot.

It left me thinking, though -- the cooler temperature further down the condenser pipe must create some sort of vacuum, right? Like, boiling forces vapor up, and cooling pulls it down, so for the purpose of efficiency, would we be better off cooling further down the condenser to create a vacuum?

Post by **rad14701** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:37 pm

raketemensch wrote:It left me thinking, though -- the cooler temperature further down the condenser pipe must create some sort of vacuum, right? Like, boiling forces vapor up, and cooling pulls it down, so for the purpose of efficiency, would we be better off cooling further down the condenser to create a vacuum?

Research "shock cooling"...

cob · Post by **cob** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:14 pm

shadylane wrote:
jb-texshine wrote:
shadylane wrote:Those finned tubes will condense 500-600 watts per foot with a fan blowing on them.
Without a fan maybe 125-150w per foot

My question is whether or not they would work with a turkey fryer burner...not sure of btu's made by grillsmith model tf2005102-gs-00
There's too many variables for me to figure out how many BTU's a burner can heat a pot. But a rough idea can be had from the amount of liquid that comes out of the condenser. Long story short. 6 to 10 feet of finned tubing with a fan should work.
Just a guess, that's enough to condense all the vapor that a keg still can produce without puking on a stripping run.

no variables in propane. 21500 BTU per pound, weigh the propane tank,

run the burner and note the time. weigh the tank when done.

Post by **raketemensch** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:42 pm

rad14701 wrote: Research "shock cooling"...

Danke.

cob wrote:no variables in propane. 21500 BTU per pound, weigh the propane tank.

I gotta admit, it's pretty handy having Hank Hill around.

Post by **shadylane** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:25 am

There may be 21,500 BTU per pound of propane. But how much of that is lost before it heats the boiler ?
The measurements I did were based on an internal heating element. There was some loses, so the 500-600 watts per foot of finned tubing is a ball park figure for the hydronic heater from lowe's.

Post by **raketemensch** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:33 pm

Wow, are you saying that you'd need 7' for a 3500 watt element? Is that with the fan running?

Post by **shadylane** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:41 pm

raketemensch wrote:Wow, are you saying that you'd need 7' for a 3500 watt element? Is that with the fan running?

Yes 6 to 7 feet of the lowe's finned tubes, with a fan will do the job. This is a conservative # less could be used.
But the distillate will be hot.

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