8% ABV in 6 hours

[masonsjax]

You're extrapolating a lot from those quotes. I have never debated the fact that yeast growth is when flavor/aroma compounds are created, or that those flavor compounds are desirable in certain styles of beer. What I am saying is that with a healthy fermentation and proper pitching rates, certain ale yeasts can be very low in esters and other compounds. Just because that's the step where compounds are created does not automatically mean that you can significantly reduce or eliminate the compounds by way overpitching or that there are no other detrimental effects from overpitching. In fact, my research tells me that excessive pitching rates can create more water and less alcohol, which is less than ideal in our hobby. Sorry, I don't have the time to find specific sources for you right now. I know Kai Troester has done a lot of research on the topic, so I'd start there. I also recall researching the crabtree effect (which has to do with oxygen availability) when I stumbled on info regarding pitching rates. I've been reading about this stuff for many years, but my goals are to improve the quality of my various fermentation projects, not to publish research papers so I don't keep too many detailed notes on sources, sorry.

[rad14701]

hoochlover, your use of the word "toxins" is ambiguous and flawed... There is a vast difference between toxins and congeners... Toxins are just that, toxic... Congeners impart flavor, smell, and color, amongst other things including toxins... We take pretty good care of actual toxins by making proper cuts... Foreshots and early heads, as well as very late tails are where then tend to hang out most... That means anything in the hearts is mainly harmless congeners, aside from the ethanol itself... Sure, they may have taste, smell, and/or color but they surely aren't toxins... If you're looking for some credibility here at least use more accurate terminology... You want to remove as many congeners as possible, not poisons/toxins...

[hoochlover]

hoochlover, your use of the word "toxins" is ambiguous and flawed... There is a vast difference between toxins and congeners... Toxins are just that, toxic... Congeners impart flavor, smell, and color, amongst other things including toxins... We take pretty good care of actual toxins by making proper cuts... Foreshots and early heads, as well as very late tails are where then tend to hang out most... That means anything in the hearts is mainly harmless congeners, aside from the ethanol itself... Sure, they may have taste, smell, and/or color but they surely aren't toxins... If you're looking for some credibility here at least use more accurate terminology... You want to remove as many congeners as possible, not poisons/toxins...

Yes I think I do need to change the word I use to describe that as I think it could be confusing. Thanks for pointing it out.

Have you found those studies/papers you were referring to earlier which prove what you were saying and disprove my theory? I tried searching more to find anything which disproved the many papers and studies I had already read and am yet to find anything which agrees with you. It seems if you already know the relevant studies/papers/whatever it should be easy for you to just link them or at least give the pub numbers so I can attempt to find them myself.

[hoochlover]

You're extrapolating a lot from those quotes.

It's just one quote, I said it was a starting point. I can link to other things which back up my theory, although it's not a 1:1 thing here because so much of these studies/papers are focusing on beer and wine unfortunately.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0259.x/pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I have never debated the fact that yeast growth is when flavor/aroma compounds are created, or that those flavor compounds are desirable in certain styles of beer. What I am saying is that with a healthy fermentation and proper pitching rates, certain ale yeasts can be very low in esters and other compounds. Just because that's the step where compounds are created does not automatically mean that you can significantly reduce or eliminate the compounds by way overpitching or that there are no other detrimental effects from overpitching.

You need to realize that the terms "overpitching" and "underpitching" when it comes to a neutral spirit is very far removed from what you know of beer/wine knowledge. These terms in beer and wine are used mainly to refer to the flavor profile of the particular brew. If you don't get the pitch right you don't get the right end product. Overpitching in beer/wine terms has nearly no place in a neutral spirit wash because overpitching in a neutral spirit is found when the optimal cell density of the particular yeast strain is reached, and this is 10x to 100x what you would pitch in a beer. In a beer you pitch twice as much yeast as you should and it's "overpitching". I can pitch 10x that and it's not overpitching for a neutral because I don't want flavors, I don't want congeners, I want ethanol and water only. Pitching 10x beer yeast counts for a neutral is still underpitching, so you need to adjust your scale here.

I know many home distillers are pitching 2x beer yeast amounts and getting good results and this is the widely reported amount of yeast everyone should use to get the cleanest brew possible, according to many people. Unfortunately the evidence I have read does not agree with this, and if you think it does I would like to see these studies/papers/whatever that is making you think it.

I'm aware that you can make a fine brew just by throwing sugar in a garbage can and getting wild yeast to ferment it. So there is no need to say "x produces something fine", I know that. I've read many wash recipes, I've read many peoples experiences with them, its working great for a lot of people, no doubt about it. Is it the most neutral way to do a wash? No, the evidence I've seen says not.

In fact, my research tells me that excessive pitching rates can create more water and less alcohol, which is less than ideal in our hobby.

Create more water?

It's theoretically possible it may lower ABV depending upon a couple factors, it may also raise ABV because less sugar is used to support yeast growth. From my tests I have seen the latter although it's quite negligible the total ABV differences. Total ABV includes many congeners though and limiting congeners in a neutral brew means more hearts even though total ABV may not be significantly higher.

I also recall researching the crabtree effect (which has to do with oxygen availability) when I stumbled on info regarding pitching rates.

Not sure why you're mentioning this. If you had fully read this thread and my posts you would see I recommend low O2 to limit reproduction and off tastes, the lipids in the dried yeast are enough to cover a fermentation the way I do it. It is also why if you had fully developed your theory you would understand that the more reproduction that occurs, using whatever manner, the more congeners would be produced. If you're making beer/wine/rum this may be wanted, but for neutrals it is not.

Chris White yeast book extract

There is another way yeast will ferment anaerobically and still produce ethanol: the Crabtree effect. This is very important to brewing. If there is a high-enough glucose concentration, even in the presence of oxygen, yeast produce ethanol (anaerobic fermentation). Brewer’s wort always contains more than the 0.4 percent glucose required for the Crabtree effect, so fermentation always results in alcohol, even with oxygen present. The fact is that the concentration of glycolytic enzymes is so high that during wort fermentation yeast produce ATP faster by glycolysis alone than they do by oxidative phosphorylation. The problem with oxygen exposure during fermentation is not the loss of ethanol, but rather the activation of metabolic pathways that produce off-flavors. For example, beer fermentations exposed to oxygen have higher concentrations of acetaldehyde, due to oxidation of ethanol into acetaldehyde.

[Monkeyman88]

Have you increased the size of your test samples to say, 1L, 10L, 50L at a time to see if your theory still a valid one. Making a small wash in a soda bottle doesn't tell much as most people here do that to create starters, so it's already known that it goes fast in those small amounts. If you want people to take you seriously then you need to up your sizes to what's more common on distilling. 30L, 50L, 100L and 200L. If you can get ferments of that size to match the rate that your small samples are finishing, then people may listen. Until then, you're just telling people what they already know.

[hoochlover]

Have you increased the size of your test samples to say, 1L, 10L, 50L at a time to see if your theory still a valid one. Making a small wash in a soda bottle doesn't tell much as most people here do that to create starters, so it's already known that it goes fast in those small amounts. If you want people to take you seriously then you need to up your sizes to what's more common on distilling. 30L, 50L, 100L and 200L. If you can get ferments of that size to match the rate that your small samples are finishing, then people may listen. Until then, you're just telling people what they already know.

No I haven't done a larger batch yet. I hope to within 2 weeks, there's no point for me to try it when my SS neutral rig is currently unable to be used. I've got some tig welding equipment and other stuff coming so I can put together what I want.

You or anyone else is welcome to try it though. I'm sure the more experienced you are with distilling the more able you are to see the effects of what I am saying. I don't think even one person has done a small batch test to replicate my numbers though. I think this topic is not that interesting to most people in home distilling for a variety of reasons. What people are already doing works fine enough, this is more cost, and most people seem to be into brown spirits. Most of the posts in this thread are people more interested in saying I am wrong or a TPW is all you need than actually interested in either proving or disproving the data I have given or in getting something more neutral. This kind of thing is typical for any forum on the internet so it's not surprising to me.... but yeah. I don't like drama so much hehe. Oh well.

[Truckinbutch]

With the proven experts here I have learned from I find you to be a pretty leaky vessel to be placing much hope in .

[masonsjax]

Sorry for the confusion, I only mentioned the crabtree effect because that's what I was researching that led me to the info regarding negative impacts of overpitching. I was just trying to give you a search term that might lead you to something relevant to the topic.

I admit that my experience is completely focused on making beer and I'm just beginning my distillation adventures. However, I am pretty confident that a lot of what I have learned thus far is directly applicable. I would say that most of the several hundred batches of beer I've made were attempts at the cleanest profile possible.

In an earlier post you asked about how long my lag phases are. A lot of my batches were appropriately calculated starters pitched at high krausen directly into chilled wort, which takes off almost immediately with immeasurably brief lag phase. Results are astounding with this method. On the other end of the spectrum I have also put fresh wort onto yeast cakes that had dried to the bottom of the carboy over several months of sitting, also with surprisingly good results. Yeast are fastidious organisms that can thrive despite our negligence and will create a friendly environment for themselves provided a reasonable starting point.

[Bagasso]

If you're making beer/wine/rum this may be wanted, but for neutrals it is not.

I think you are looking at things through a keyhole.

The flavor compounds sought after in beers and wines are not desired in neutrals but those are only part of the congeners produced during fermentation.

You are not going to make a neutral by just fermenting. The reason you can't find much info on the subject is because it isn't that important. You don't need to start with a near neutral to run through a reflux column and end up with one.

[hoochlover]

The reason you can't find much info on the subject is because it isn't that important. You don't need to start with a near neutral to run through a reflux column and end up with one.

Well I haven't found anyone on the internet that has done what I have and tested it. That doesn't mean no one has, I just can't find it. But if you go back some posts you will see that I am in agreement with you. I think what I am doing will be cleaner, I just don't think it's going to be that much cleaner to actually matter much on a good rig. That's my unproven and untested belief and its quite possible I'm wrong.

Another reason I am doing this isn't just for cleaner brew, if my belief turns out to be true in regards to not mattering much I will have a way to ferment, clarify and distil in 12 hours a 10% crystal clear wash. That is quite appealing to me and it's what I am currently trying to build for regardless.

[hoochlover]

I admit that my experience is completely focused on making beer and I'm just beginning my distillation adventures. However, I am pretty confident that a lot of what I have learned thus far is directly applicable. I would say that most of the several hundred batches of beer I've made were attempts at the cleanest profile possible.

A lot is and a lot isn't. It depends really how far down you want to go. I, like you came from a beer background and I'm very surprised that for neutrals things are very different than I originally believed. But in the end you can take that beer knowledge and do great things in distilling without reading as much crap on yeast as I have recently.

In an earlier post you asked about how long my lag phases are. A lot of my batches were appropriately calculated starters pitched at high krausen directly into chilled wort, which takes off almost immediately with immeasurably brief lag phase. Results are astounding with this method. On the other end of the spectrum I have also put fresh wort onto yeast cakes that had dried to the bottom of the carboy over several months of sitting, also with surprisingly good results. Yeast are fastidious organisms that can thrive despite our negligence and will create a friendly environment for themselves provided a reasonable starting point.

Hmm, so you're saying you get strong fermentation immediately with some starters in beer? This is a hard thing to actually track down any scientific evidence on in regards to what exactly stops the lag phase. Even Chris White glosses over it in his book, as does every paper I've read. My current belief it is something to do with the cell density of the yeast in the solution and the nutrients available because even if you throw in excess nutrients and oxygen yeast will ferment if there is a lot of them in the solution, and they know that through some mechanism.... It's funny that we are here in 2015 and there is still so much unknown about yeast, mostly due to the lack of tools we have to accurately monitor them.

I read something recently where they were looking at percentage of yeast budding and average cell densities. They are using such extrapolated methods to find out that info, it was a modern experiment but the lack of tools we have to monitor the yeast make it very difficult to have the full understanding just yet. How much it matters for any of what we do I don't know, but at this point I feel like I am too heavily invested in yeast!

[Bagasso]

Well I haven't found anyone on the internet that has done what I have and tested it. That doesn't mean no one has, I just can't find it. But if you go back some posts you will see that I am in agreement with you. I think what I am doing will be cleaner, I just don't think it's going to be that much cleaner to actually matter much on a good rig. That's my unproven and untested belief and its quite possible I'm wrong.

But I do think that you will find people who have used "a lot" of yeast and say it tastes bad.

Might not be exactly what you are doing but it might be where you end up.

Another reason I am doing this isn't just for cleaner brew, if my belief turns out to be true in regards to not mattering much I will have a way to ferment, clarify and distil in 12 hours a 10% crystal clear wash. That is quite appealing to me and it's what I am currently trying to build for regardless.

If you end up with a dirtier brew then you have not accomplished one or the other.

What I mean by looking through a keyhole means that you are seeing, or focusing, on a small part of the fermentation process, beers and wines developing flavors during the lag phase, without taking into account the rest.

Less esters does not mean less sulfer compounds, ketones, aldehydes, higher alcohols and what ever else that will still keep the distillate from being neutral.

I don't know what you are going to end up with but I doubt that it will be "neutral".

[jb-texshine]

I propose a head to head comparison with a 24 hour turbo yeast...then try distilling something,anything you have fermented then the distill the turbo. Bet it tastes better... Then try something from the t&t section. Distill something,stop needlessly killing yeast,they only want to make you happy.
Jb
( wondering if gas in a cars headlights would make them brighter)???

[hoochlover]

I propose a head to head comparison with a 24 hour turbo yeast...then try distilling something,anything you have fermented then the distill the turbo. Bet it tastes better... Then try something from the t&t section. Distill something,stop needlessly killing yeast,they only want to make you happy.
Jb
( wondering if gas in a cars headlights would make them brighter)???

Hehe well I will do my own experiments on this front in the next weeks. But my opinion and words don't mean much around here. The more the old timers experiment on this front and post their experiences the more people here will care I guess. Numbers and data matter more than an opinion, at least to me, so I hope people can start providing data on this front. I don't mind if it conflicts with my findings but hard numbers/data are what I'm after more than opinions. But I guess I have zero control over that and people can post whatever they want, so

[hoochlover]

What I mean by looking through a keyhole means that you are seeing, or focusing, on a small part of the fermentation process, beers and wines developing flavors during the lag phase, without taking into account the rest.

Less esters does not mean less sulfer compounds, ketones, aldehydes, higher alcohols and what ever else that will still keep the distillate from being neutral.

I don't know what you are going to end up with but I doubt that it will be "neutral".

I agree with you, until you have numbers or studies or evidence of any kind to support your opinion I don't know why you assume anything on that front though. I have beliefs but I know they will easily be changed if the evidence pops up. I'm not stuck to some religious zealot belief. I don't mind being wrong, when you get old enough you've been wrong so many times that it just is a normal experience. So you don't need to tell me it's possible I am wrong as I know it's possible, but give me the numbers instead of your opinion if you want to say one way or the other. Otherwise you're repeating stuff I already know, that I may be wrong.

[Tater]

cool now go do your tests and get back to us when you've completed them. I'm all for experiments.Thing is your better off posting about them after you have results.

[Bagasso]

I have beliefs but I know they will easily be changed if the evidence pops up. I'm not stuck to some religious zealot belief.

Me to. Since, like you said, there isn't any info available, I'm waiting for you to come back with something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for you but, I'm pointing out other potential problems, besides esters, which you seem to be hinging your idea on.

ETA: Here is some info on esterification, since you seem to be focused on them.

You will notice that, even if you can ferment an ester free wash, all the right elements are present during distillation to create them in the boiler.

Esterification

[hoochlover]

Me to. Since, like you said, there isn't any info available, I'm waiting for you to come back with something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for you but, I'm pointing out other potential problems, besides esters, which you seem to be hinging your idea on.

ETA: Here is some info on esterification, since you seem to be focused on them.

You will notice that, even if you can ferment an ester free wash, all the right elements are present during distillation to create them in the boiler.

Esterification

Thanks for the link I hadn't seen that before. It is definitely worthwhile pursuing some testing on what goes into the boiler. I am designing a system that allows me to get a clear wash very soon after ferment finishes, and from there adding things to help it stay clean during a boil needs to be looked into as well. All the same principles would apply to any wash you boil though, it's just more important for me to get the wash clear ASAP with a fast ferment.

I've seen some very good things so far on my small tests but I need to scale it up, I'm learning TIG welding atm so I can build what I want.

[Bagasso]

All the same principles would apply to any wash you boil though,

Right, that's the point.

it's just more important for me to get the wash clear ASAP with a fast ferment.

But you only seem to be avoiding esters.

Honestly, esters are easy to get rid of. In case you missed it in that link, esterification is reversible.

Here is a thread that touches on alkali treatment

From personal experience, once you get rid of esters, you are still left with a bunch of other congeners that keep the distillate from being neutral.

[skow69]

I can't believe this thread went for 4 pages without anything getting distilled for a taste test.

[MDH]

Use a two step system of bentonite and sparkolloid.

[jb-texshine]

I can't believe this thread went for 4 pages without anything getting distilled for a taste test.

I can't either.... I mean if you truly want booze in six hours you should have just gone to the liquor store and bought it...
not even a lousy pot and wok still.... Just....yeast murder.

[hoochlover]

But you only seem to be avoiding esters.

What are you basing that on?

From personal experience, once you get rid of esters, you are still left with a bunch of other congeners that keep the distillate from being neutral.

Yeah. Well this is the main reason I want to get rid of the yeast cake as soon as possible which is what my system allows. Every minute past fermentation there is more autolysis. The quicker you get them separated the better your end product. You can't easily do this with a slow fermentation unless you have it timed and monitored. With a fast ferment it is very easy to know the time.

I suspect that the biggest tails increase in any brew is the yeast heating in the boiler AND the autolysis that occurs during and after fermentation. Obviously a quick ferment limits autolysis during, and it's only the "after" you have to take care of.

I've been heating yeast in numerous experiments and there are horrible smells over ~50C even in a water bath. People somehow think that scorching is what causes this smell but it's not, it's the yeast heating up even at low temps. Sure scorching will make it worse don't get me wrong but it's bad without it. If you have any yeast in your boil you're blowing up your tails, which is why bentonite or centrifuges and other such things are 100% required to lower the congeners, in combination with the other techniques I've listed. I wouldn't use a plate filter or anything that uses much force as that has potential to burst yeast cells unleashing more autolysis. A plate filter might be ok after removing 99% of the yeast and only having 1% left in suspension but bentonite works much better in my experience. I personally prefer a gentle approach with yeast which is why I would use something like bentonite in combination with my gravity techniques and a slow pump for degassing (CO2 and H2S).

Once I have finished my system and have a working prototype and I will put more info down about it.

[masonsjax]

Have you had problems with autolysis? Commercial brewers try to get the yeast out asap because the preaaure of the immense volumes they're dealing with kills the dormant yeast. On a homebrew scale it's rarely a problem. I've left beers on the yeast for more than a year (not on purpose) with zero off flavors. You can store yeast under beer for a long time without worry.

[hoochlover]

cool now go do your tests and get back to us when you've completed them. I'm all for experiments.Thing is your better off posting about them after you have results.

Well I have posted many results so far in this thread. But if you're talking about results in regards to congeners, would you prefer I didn't post on the forum until I had them?

[hoochlover]

Have you had problems with autolysis? Commercial brewers try to get the yeast out asap because the preaaure of the immense volumes they're dealing with kills the dormant yeast. On a homebrew scale it's rarely a problem. I've left beers on the yeast for more than a year (not on purpose) with zero off flavors. You can store yeast under beer for a long time without worry.

Did you leave your beer on the primary fermentation yeast cake for a year? Somehow seems unlikely. If you're talking about yeast in a bottle for carbonation or a secondary then it's not as much yeast in there.

You'll find breweries do different things in regards to the yeast cake, and a lot depends on the taste they are seeking, but generally it's measured in days not weeks. In regards to beer and off flavors I don't doubt you. Picking off flavors in something which is heavily flavored is difficult. And autolysis isn't some constant thing, it can differ depending upon many factors, and of course is much worse when condensed in distilling than in its original form.

When it comes to a neutral every yeast cell that dies is adding congeners, so it's not a matter of "having a problem with autolysis" as knowing what is happening in the solution. It is happening, whether you can detect it or not using our limited senses isn't really the point when seeking the most neutral neutral. Because even if you can't taste or smell the difference there will be a difference in regards to heart percentage.

[masonsjax]

Yes primary yeast cake. Light pale ales. The hops faded, but that's all. I wouldn't recommend that practice because autolysis is a risk, but if stored properly, the yeast just go dormant, they don't commit mass suicide. If there was a healthy fermentation and plenty of resources available, they will prep for hibernation and simply go to sleep until the next feeding. Sure some will die off, but I believe it would take a long long time for enough to die and rupture for there to be a measurable impact if stored cool and under the liquid they created for themselves.

I just feel like you're drawing a lot of conclusions based on pieces of info from multiple sources. I don't necessarily disagree with what facts you've found, but your application is a little haphazard and overly complicated. Don't take this personal, I have ADHD too and can relate. It takes one to know one

What Ive found is that the best way to minimize congeners (and thus heads and tails) is to pitch an appropriate amount of healthy yeast into aerated chilled wash and to keep the temps within the yeasts recommended range (cooler is better) throughout vigorous fermentation, at which point bumping up a few degrees can help complete attenuation. Give the yeast a few more days past a stable specific gravity to clean up any fermentation byproducts and flocculate out and you should be good to go. Don't overthink it.

[hoochlover]

Yes primary yeast cake. Light pale ales. The hops faded, but that's all. I wouldn't recommend that practice because autolysis is a risk, but if stored properly, the yeast just go dormant, they don't commit mass suicide. If there was a healthy fermentation and plenty of resources available, they will prep for hibernation and simply go to sleep until the next feeding. Sure some will die off, but I believe it would take a long long time for enough to die and rupture for there to be a measurable impact if stored cool and under the liquid they created for themselves.

While this may be true for a light ABV, it's not true for anything around 10% . The ethanol will dissolve yeast walls given enough time, obviously more acid, more ethanol, more whatever, the quicker autolysis occurs. It's a factor to consider. I'm still surprised you had something drinkable with your one year yeast cake hehe. That must be some sterile/stable environmental conditions you kept it in. Was it a glass carboy or keg you used?

I just feel like you're drawing a lot of conclusions based on pieces of info from multiple sources. I don't necessarily disagree with what facts you've found, but your application is a little haphazard and overly complicated. Don't take this personal, I have ADHD too and can relate. It takes one to know one

What Ive found is that the best way to minimize congeners (and thus heads and tails) is to pitch an appropriate amount of healthy yeast into aerated chilled wash and to keep the temps within the yeasts recommended range (cooler is better) throughout vigorous fermentation, at which point bumping up a few degrees can help complete attenuation. Give the yeast a few more days past a stable specific gravity to clean up any fermentation byproducts and flocculate out and you should be good to go. Don't overthink it.

Thanks for your experiences. I am drawing a lot of conclusions from various sources. Unfortunately there isn't anything I've found that has done what I am doing and then presented any data, so I am forced to pick the pieces of the puzzle from a lot of different places. Perhaps lots of people have done it and just not talked about it (as mentioned in this thread by some people), hard to say. But I know it's quite likely I am wrong and this fast ferment technique doesn't matter for congeners. Still I'm going to have a look and even if I'm wrong my fermentation and boiler prototype and other techniques will be incredibly useful to me for a normal TPW anyhow. I always wanted an excuse/motivation to get all the tools I have and am getting and it's fun learning new things.

[masonsjax]

Was it a glass carboy or keg you used?

PET carboys actually. I've done it a few times. I make a good number of sour beers with yeast/bacteria blends that need at least a year before the first sampling. Sometimes I overlook carboys that were supposed to get tapped after a couple of weeks.

Hey, if you're having fun with this, more power to you!

[Bagasso]

What are you basing that on?

On the info you cited.

Yeah. Well this is the main reason I want to get rid of the yeast cake as soon as possible which is what my system allows. Every minute past fermentation there is more autolysis. The quicker you get them separated the better your end product. You can't easily do this with a slow fermentation unless you have it timed and monitored. With a fast ferment it is very easy to know the time.

Take a look at this Autolysis of Baker's Yeast.

I suspect that the biggest tails increase in any brew is the yeast heating in the boiler AND the autolysis that occurs during and after fermentation.

Your observation of temp might be accurate according to that study but I think you are shoehorning things to fit your theory. Autolysis takes time even under harsher conditions.

But enough about you. Seven and a half hours ago I mixed up a batch as per your instructions. About five and a half hours later it started clearing so I filterd about an ounce through a 1 micron filter to get rid of the yeast.

Not crystal clear but a clear wash by common standards. The smell and taste of yeast is very strong and I hate to break it to you but a quick sip and I can taste the tails underneath all the funk from the yeast.

I would like to say that you get the speed and at least it isn't worse than a normal wash but I can't.

In comparison, I just racked a panela wash that took 3 days to ferment and I also just happened to siphon the sugar wash off of a jar in the fridge that has been sitting there, on the yeast cake, for about three weeks. Gave each of them a sip as well and they both taste better that the fast ferment wash.

That doesn't mean that this can't be a winner after going through a still but, this is what I can offer for now.