The Very Best Wash

[sungazer]

"The Very Best Wash" That sounds like a big statement and one that a lot of people could argue and debate about. However in my opinion the very best wash is one that you could drink as it is. That is why I have spent up until now following the techniques of winemakers.

What also confirmed my belief in this "motto" was when a friend of mine who is a qualified winemaker gave me 100L of his wine that didn't quite make his grade and I distilled this and it was arguably one of my best ethanol's that I had made. (I am aiming at the highest % ethanol only so it has no taste or smell)

In general in the short time I have been reading this site I find some very conflicting ideas. For instance the use of large amounts of yeast just taking birdwatchers recipe for an example on the first page the recipe uses 200g plus of yeast if this was wine the instructions on the yeast would be 25g / hundred L however there is a real dislike of turbo yeasts that do exactly the same thing use excessive amounts of yeast to get it going quicker and make sure it starts.

The other is in general there seems to be a consensus to stay away from High percentage washes I see a lot of comments like keep it under 10%. Wine in Australia is usually 13.5 % and a lot of this has had water added to it. It might have had a higher % so water is added so the tax is lower.

If the wash is clean enough to drink as it is in its raw state then you really cant go wrong esp if you are going to turn it into very high % that will contain very little of the original flavors or smell .

[bearriver]

I use a modified birdwatchers for neutral.

You have some misconceptions about what turbo yeast is and why we dont recommend it. Pitch rates have nothing to do with it.

[Stillernz]

And the very best wash is? Excited to see the recipe

[IanD]

Wine must and a cereal wash are very different. Wine must has a pH usually around 3.5. Not many nasty infections can live in this and if they do they only grow slowly. They usually add sulphites too to kill the worst nasties. A slower fermentation is acceptable in this situation. The relatively high pH of a cereal wash (or beer) will make it much more susceptible to infection even though it starts out sterile from boiling. They need to get that going quickly before any wild organisms can take hold.

Impatience is part of it too. Some people just want a fermentation to be finished in a few days. Some of my wild yeast cider ferments can be three or four weeks before I see a bubble and take four months to complete outdoors through the winter. The grain people start to panic if they don't see a bubble in a few hours and want it finished in a week.

[Kegg_jam]

Best wash for what?

Washes, mashes and musts all have their place.

Gotta say I've had some nice spirits come from a wash that'll make you pucker.

[bearriver]

Best wash for what?

Based on his description of the spirit profile in the OP, I would say neutral.

[Kegg_jam]

Oh yeah, my bad.

I like wineo's, although It can be finicky for some.

[Halfbaked]

sungazer There is no very best wash its only what your personal preference is. Lots of things effect it. If we are talking about neutral I like it neutral. I want it odorless and tasteless because I am going to flavor it another way. TPW is cheap and easy and works for me. With a pot still that is a little harder to accomplish than with a reflux still. If I had wine I would have pot stilled 2 times and had brandy. You read about conflicting opinions on how much sugar to go into wash. The more you read the more you will understand this. Most all grainers run less amts of SG(say 6-7%) than the people that use sugar (say 10%). The other thing that is to be considered is what the yeast like (ferment temps, what kinda sugar they are eating, how much sugar there is). The Mfg will give you that info and I think its a good idea to stay on the lower end of the temps and SG content. The best advice I can give you is read the entire link in my signature called Crankys spoon feeding. When you understand everything in it (everything) then go to tried and true and true and start making a few. Take good notes on every wash you do and you will quickly notice the diff in each. You will notice things about your notes and then see what you like. If you don't like what you have made water it down to 10% and run it again. Read Crankys spin feeding your likker will thank you!

[NZChris]

... a friend of mine who is a qualified winemaker gave me 100L of his wine that didn't quite make his grade and I distilled this and it was arguably one of my best ethanol's that I had made. (I am aiming at the highest % ethanol only so it has no taste or smell)

Depending on what the defect was and how good your skills are, that could probably have been turned into a really nice, full flavored, brandy to be sat on oak for a few years.

[sungazer]

My point really is that if you can drink the wash like a Beer which is in some commercial brands pot stilled into whiskey or if its a nice wine that you are going to turn into a higher proof product or even if you are going for a completely neutral spirit. If what you start with is good enough to drink then you final product will be great. If you can drink the wash there are obviously no unpleasant bits to it that are going to turn your distilled product into crap.

[shadylane]

My point really is that if you can drink the wash like a Beer which is in some commercial brands pot stilled into whiskey or if its a nice wine that you are going to turn into a higher proof product or even if you are going for a completely neutral spirit. If what you start with is good enough to drink then you final product will be great. If you can drink the wash there are obviously no unpleasant bits to it that are going to turn your distilled product into crap.

I understand what your trying to say, but I'll have to argue with you on this.
Brandy is made from wine that isn't pleasant to drink.
Whiskey is made from a fermented mash that's sour and somewhat nasty.

[sungazer]

I don't disagree with you on those points and I believe you can get some very good high 95% Neutral spirit off some very nasty shit. However using a pot still and one run you could get some nasty shit of a nasty tasting wash however I don't think you will get a nasty drink off a good drinkable wash.

[woodshed]

Another vague thread.
Your intro asked why there is not a standard recipe. And tells us you have many recipes.
Then something about a rice recipe that looked interesting but provided no info.
Now a thread about the best wash but no info.

Would be nice to see you open up a bit with such requests and claims.
I can't speak to making a neutral as I do not make them.
One man's best wash is another man's shite. Do you have a point with this thread?

[sungazer]

Another vague thread.
Your intro asked why there is not a standard recipe. And tells us you have many recipes.
Then something about a rice recipe that looked interesting but provided no info.
Now a thread about the best wash but no info.

Would be nice to see you open up a bit with such requests and claims.
I can't speak to making a neutral as I do not make them.
One man's best wash is another man's shite. Do you have a point with this thread?

I will start with the first question about a standard recipe. By that what I meant is chemistry that we or someone would have worked out the exact ingredients to ferment sugar and water. (I know in can be done because of the commercials) and by standard I mean basic ingredients like DAP or Citric acid ect, not tomato paste which will be made up of all sorts of ingredients and will probably vary from brand to brand.

One of my recipes
5kg of Sugar
20L of water
1g Tartaric acid
1g Citric acid
10g DAP
1g Cerivit
10g 2226 Yeast
55g Go Ferm
10g Dap at 24 hr
10g Dap at 48 hr

Invert the sugar with the Acid first add the DAP, Cerivit and GoFerm mix well start yeast in small batch of ferment then add to main batch at 20 min.

Then I have used other recipe's use additions to this basic sort of recipe such as adding Breakfast juice to the mix or just different amounts of DAP

Never said I had the rice recipe I was showing a picture of a Pot Still in Viet Nam

The other point I was trying to make was about high % washes. I have read thread after thread on here about hi grav washes and the majority of people against them. But like I said a good wine can easily be 14% and this will distill out to good spirits whether you only take it to 40% or to 95%. Think about it?

Was this post meant to be Vague yes it was. I wanted people to think about what they were doing. You need to have your end goal in mind before you start and then think of the alternative ways of getting there. Don't like my posts put me on ignore. But don't worry I don't think I will be here long. This forum seems a long way from Tony's original site and his methos to me.

[Kegg_jam]

On this forum 'the very best...' Make it to the Tried and True section because, well... It's been tried and true.

[MDH]

If you are making neutral alcohol, the "very best" is the least stressful to the yeast.

Aim for less than 8% ABV, provide lots of complex nutrients (that artificial nutrients cannot compete with). This is how wheat germ and bran recipes work.

[Oldvine Zin]

[

I will start with the first question about a standard recipe. By that what I meant is chemistry that we or someone would have worked out the exact ingredients to ferment sugar and water. (I know in can be done because of the commercials) and by standard I mean basic ingredients like DAP or Citric acid ect, not tomato paste which will be made up of all sorts of ingredients and will probably vary from brand to brand.

Can't we all just agree to make a standard neutral - the Volkswagen of alcohol

[NZChris]

Do you drink yours as neutral, or do you flavor it?

If with flavors, what flavors? Where do you get them from?

[sungazer]

I try and only get the highest % alcohol from my still I only collect down to about 90% then stop collecting I water this down with either rain water or spring water as that's all we have where I live. I never drink it just plain I always flavor it. Mostly I use Still Spirits flavors. I have also used the Top Shelf Classic Flavors. What I like to make is a Bourbon however I mix a few different ones together to get my blend and when I am making a mix it is 25L. I mix it a bit week maybe 50% of the recommended and put a good portion of charred oak chips in there. I have bought the oak chips before but now I buy the oak staves and cut them up and then give them my own charring a bit more. I try to leave it for a while but that is up to fate.

I keep some of the empty flavor bottles so I know what I have made here is a list of most of them. Against the rules here some have been made for family and friends but that was over 7 years ago so the statue of limitations as the Americans would say is over.
Butterscotch Schnapps
Dictine
Blackberry Schnapps
Triple Sec
White Rum
Black Sambuca
Bourbon
Scotch Whiskey
Peach Schnapps
Dry Vermouth
French Brandy
Southern Smooth
Melon Liqueur
English Gin
Orange Brandy

Some of the recipes to duplicate a particular brand name require a mix of several flavors some extra sugar and maybe a bit of Glycerine.

[Saltbush Bill]

that could probably have been turned into a really nice, full flavored, brandy to be sat on oak for a few years.

That was my first thought on the subject also, why would you strip all the flavor out of something that could have turned out to be so good?

What also confirmed my belief in this "motto" was when a friend of mine who is a qualified winemaker gave me 100L of his wine that didn't quite make his grade and I distilled this and it was arguably one of my best ethanol's that I had made. (I am aiming at the highest % ethanol only so it has no taste or smell)

You are going to be hard pressed to make a true neutral collecting down to 90%
Wine making and spirit making are two very different beasts.

[thecroweater]

Yes good white wine makes a nice spirit for fortifying not sure if I would call it neutral, you can tell it comes from grapes, its different from some other more neutral ethanol that would not be suited to fortifying. Standard recipes OK what we got is recipes that work all the time every time and tomato paste has been proven beyond a faint shadow of doubt to be a great yeast nutrient end of story. I wouldn't say I was a hippy type guy but I will stick to it long before I start using fertilizer or hitting up the chem labs. The optimum abv varies from yeast to yeast and wash to wash and the amounts prescribed reflect that, as for birdwatchers I feel the sugar content there is at the higher end of the maximum optimum and use less sugar and less yeast for a fast clean ferment. Why sacrifice days for an extra one or two percent when you could have all but finished a second ferment in that time.

[sungazer]

You are going to be hard pressed to make a true neutral collecting down to 90%
Wine making and spirit making are two very different beasts.

I mean I only collect the hearts the fore shots I keep for cleaning windows or use when I need other alcohol products then I only collect buy temperature and only down to 90% pure ethanol. Do you not consider this to be a neutral spirit? I find it has no taste or smell at all neat and when mixed with water its as clean and as smooth as can be.

Most comments I get about my drinks is that they don't have that rough spirit taste kick although they will certainly pack a punch when it comes to making you drunk

[Copper Thumper]

Would it not be a "wash" that you are discussing but a "mead" instead if your drinking it straight? Or you mean just a clean ferment of any kind? Because they all differ and some are not made for drinking "raw".

I'm assuning you are simply asking what the best "ferment" is....Well that's a tuffy.

A friend of mine placed 4th in an international competition for "mead"on a whim... Another friend entered it without his knowledge and he placed. Of course he was surprised and his head is fatter!

This was last year and he is now trying to win it on the next go coming up... He described it as a "ferment that tastes great".

is this is what you are shooting for or just a good recipe?

There are many ferments that taste like crap but yield an excellent distillate, yet some are aimed for raw drinking.

What are your preferances?

This might be the "whatever floats you boat" thread.

What defines "the best" in your eyes?

Just a neautral alcohol? Flavor? Clean potency?

You can only drink a certain proof before it's damaging tissues..so high proof really doesn't matter with taste.

Care to explain a little more in depth other than just a neutral?

Your running the still, collect hearts and then rerun to only collect to 180 proof? Or 90 abv?

If your collecting only to 180 proof - what still are you running ? a reflux? Flute? Imo your wasting a lot of good likker if this is the case.

If you collect down to 90 *proof*- this makes more sense. 90% alcohol is near pure and I wouldn't recommend drinking . After 90 proof the "funk" comes out anyway and can hit pretty quick...I'm right there with ya if this is what you mean.


Not all ferments will taste great that make great distillate.

I don't believe there is "a best" of any recipe considering every ferment is different, every still is different and every person's tastes can differentiate from another's.


One man's trash is another mans treasure.

I feel "what ever floats your boat" is still best here because I might think differently on one distill than the next "joe".

[sungazer]

I run by this sites definition and old fractioning still. I only talk in % not proofs and I would never drink the 90% straight that is very dangerous. From the point you could easily drink to much too easily or without realizing. For drinking I normally mix it down to 40 or 50% and add a flavor.

I totally understand a bad tasting wash can be distilled into a good tasting product. Its my view however that a good tasting product cannot be turned into a bad tasting distilled product. So for me I have in the past tried to make a wash along the methods of wine making and often using a little bit of Fruit juice for that something little extra. I have used Vegemite as I am in Australia I don't like that stuff on my toast so I am not going to like to drink it but the way I distill it is going to be hard to get any carry over anyway although I still have tried to take precations not to put something there that could carry over and ruin a batch.

[Copper Thumper]

Hey sun,

I hear you on the proof vs. %. I had a feeling that's what you meant.

I tell ya what, leave it to that dingleberry thumper!

I can turn a good ferment into crap...lol

I purchased a new burner a while ago and had been waiting to give her a go.Over the weekend I fired her up and after waiting a couple of hours the lyne arm to the thumper still wasn't hot to the touch so I finally kicked that sucker up to a low howl.

Yup!


Not only did I burn the mash, but I puked that thing like a 16 y/o after prom.

If anyone can screw something up it's ME.

Just give me time and I'll find a way! Haha

Anyway I wanted to touch on what you were saying about trying to ferment twards a wine, as mash/meads/wash can ferment out dry like some wines with a higher abv but some won't. Heck-some batches they toss more sugar after the first ferment so they are all different.

I'd like to add something informational other than proof that a good ferment can go bad...but with a broad spectrum question like asking for "the best", it's all related to what your angle is.

If your drinking the ferment I can give my opinion.

If you want my opinion on the best recipe I can give that too...yet it will be different from the next guy.

I don't think there is one "best" ferment recipe because of the variety....after all: Variety is the spice of life!

Narrow it down and again, I'll give my worthless two cents.

[sungazer]

I really didn't mean the question to be specific. And for anyone to say this is the best. I certainly know everyone has there own different tastes and goals. It really was just meant to be a bit of a thought provoking question like should I be trying to make a good beer or a good wine from there I can go on to make? I know that there is some Whiskey and I put Scotch in that category for the Americans that is made from Beer or stout, the brands just escape me. Google only pulled up one on the first page or two that I could be bothered looking at and that was a relative new craft one not a big commercial one.

I mean even for myself what I am saying here is completely different to what I am trying now and that is to get some turbos batches going and rather than wait the month or two for the ferment and then the settle wait the 3-4 days ferment then a few weeks or months for them to clean up. Although I will take the top inch of two off early as I want to run my still again. Get it ready and tuned and my hand in before I run off a large batch so I can get some aging.

[shadylane]

Sun, here's my opinion. If your wanting a "3-4 days ferment" try a low gravity wash with wheat germ and a yeast bomb.
Ferment at 85-90f with bakers and cold crash when the FG is below 1.000
Racket it 1 time, let settle another day and run it. From start to finish is less than a week.
It's not the "very best wash" but it's pretty close when run through a reflux still.

[rad14701]

I have to admit that the OP was beyond a bit ambiguous... The very best wash is the one that works for YOU... I make what works best for ME... I've done a whole lot of recipe experimentation over the years... What I have gleaned from all of those experiences is that the very best "wash" is the one that requires minimal ingredients, requires minimal fussing, clears readily, and distills to clean neutral spirits... However, a good reflux column will make the best of even a dismal wash with one or two distillations...

So, let's delve deeper...

Minimal ingredients... Enough yeast and nutrients to get the job done on a timely basis of 3 - 7 days... Extra yeast hasn't proven to be a problem...

Minimal fussing: Make the wash, air lock, and forget it until it's done...

Clears readily: Once the airlock is inactive, let it sit until it clears adequately... Some washes may benefit from racking into a secondary for further clearing, but this adds to the fussing factor... I've done a few recipes that are almost crystal clear mere hours after fermenting to dry...

Distills to clean neutral: While a single run might be nice, experience shows that performing stripping runs followed by a spirit run factors out to be a time and aggravation saver... Get rid of a majority of the water and other crap with the stripping run(s)... This allows for an easier and more efficient spirit run once the low wines are diluted down... After all, water is the best filter... The days of 1 - 2 drips per second or slower collection rates are gone...

And as for the resulting spirits, I want mine to be crisp and clean, with decent mouth feel, neat... I like shots and mixed drinks... If all I wanted was something to macerate or flavor I wouldn't be nearly as picky and could live with less than neutral spirits... I just don't want there to be an industrial taste to my neutral spirits...

What this all boils down to, pun intended, is using only enough yeast and nutrients to get the job done within a desired time frame... Essentially, if it isn't in the wash you don't have to worry about removing all traces during distillation... And it has been discussed enough times that, in general, turbo yeasts are overly aggressive and chemically nutrient rich, hence missing the mark...

One of the simplest washes I've had success with, repeatedly finishing around .990 in 7 - 10 days, only uses water, sugar, daily vitamins, and bakers yeast... One vitamin per pound of sugar is a good starting point to work from...

Regarding the parent site, to be honest, it was a hodge podge in its original form... It was all over the map even if it did attempt to incorporate a lot of theory and fundamentals... But some of the copied and pasted comments were inaccurate, lacked corroboration, and amounted to needless fluff... That being said, Anthony put a lot of time and effort into compiling everything and for that we are very grateful... But the craft has evolved considerably over the past 15 or so years since its inception...

[LWTCS]

+1 rad.
Best wash?

Needs to be put into context is all.
Sometimes the best wash is what ya can afford.