I'm Officially Confused ..... Cut Temps w/ Video

[KYMountainMan]

OK. I just ran a second run of All Grain in my Brewhaus PSII High Capacity still (CM Still) and I watched this vid which confused me more!

In this video the guy mentions stuff like Isopropyl and Acetone being present in a Standard Spirit Run.

I remember Chemistry, as it was one of my best subjects, and if I recall correctly doesn't Acetone comes from Dry Distillation of Metal Acetates like Lead. Furthermore, Isopropyl, if I recall, was produced by a chemical process using Sulfuric Acid.

Does this dude know what he's talking about? If so, do I need to abandon my standard cuts by temp of :


< 174° = Foreshots

176° - 195° = Heads

196° - 201° = Hearts

201° - 208° = Tails


Here's the video. Am I hearing this guy wrong or is HE wrong?


Edit: Fixed YouTube video: Bushman

[bitter]

You can't make cuts by temp. Unless you make that same wash exactly the same, ferment in exactly the same temp, same yeast etc etc. And already have established cuts by taste.. Then you normally use a narrower cut to ensure something bad does not creap in.

You make cuts my taste, smell etc.

B

[pfshine]

I would not listen to him in regards to in the first few seconds of the video he writes "reflEx still" and calls it that as well. My reflex is to run away. And cuts should not be done with temperature. He does have the basics down it seems. Other than cuts that is.

[skow69]

+1. Also I'm skeptical of anyone who plumbs his reflUx condenser backwards.

[KYMountainMan]

+1. Also I'm skeptical of anyone who plumbs his reflUx condenser backwards.

That's how the Brewhaus Manual shows it for my PSII High Capacity.

Is that wrong?

[pfshine]

The liebig is good but the rc is plumbed backwards.

[corene1]

I know I am hijacking here but how is the reflux condenser plumbed backwards, please explain?. If the cold water comes in from the top and exits the bottom the condenser will never be able to hold a complete chamber of water for cooling, it will empty faster than it will fill with a controlled inlet flow.With the water coming in from the bottom it will guarantee a complete fill but there will be no temperature gradient. So would you plumb in from the top and raise the exit tubing higher than the reflux unit itself to completely fill the reflux condenser and have a temp gradient? Or would you still have a possibility of trapping air in the reflux chamber so full cooling would not be possible?

[pfshine]

If you prime the system and put the control valve on the outlet everything is gravy. In hydronics the valve is always on the outlet so as to never starve the system.

[corene1]

If you prime the system and put the control valve on the outlet everything is gravy. In hydronics the valve is always on the outlet so as to never starve the system.

Thanks for sharing that.

[Bushman]

It appears to be a CM still, the hoses are set up correctly but I am amazed that he can get 190 proof as he does not have separate lines going to product and reflux condenser. I feel I have better control with separate control valves to both product and reflux condenser. Having said that his setup is not a problem just surprised he can get 100% reflux. It looks like a nice setup and I found some of the smartest people in this profession can't spell (dunderhead is a perfect example).

To answer your questions don't make your cuts by temp. It is one indicator usually for me later into the tails but I always go by smell, feel, and taste.

[Kegg_jam]

I've noticed some prefer the RC plummed that way.

I run mine in the top but then either have a valve on the output or just run the output line back up higher than the input so the condenser stays full.

[CR33G3R]

I didn't see a problem with that video. There are endless debates on how to plumb a RC.
In the video he talks about making his cuts off the still by smell and taste. Though the cuts he makes in the video are kind of broad I have certainly seen a hell of allot worse ways to make cuts.
I actually thought his heads cut was pretty spot on for an experienced distiller. He could have recommended using small collection vessels until one becomes familiar with the different smells and taste of distilling, but like I said I have seen allot worse.

[rad14701]

Contra-flow makes it easier and more efficient to attain and maintain 100% reflux... Example... If vapor makes it past the coldest portion of the condenser there is little chance that the progressively warmer portion above will finish the job... The only way to insure 100% reflux is to use more coolant than should be required to the point there is no temperature gradient... Remember the whole temperature gradient thing...??? If the coldest portion of the condenser is the point of last resistance/resort/whatever then you are running in an optimized manner from an efficiency standpoint and the temperature gradient is contra-flow to that of the vapor...

Can an incorrectly plumbed condenser do the job...??? Yes... Should you...??? Probably not...

[skow69]

Corene: Good point, and well presented.

pfshine: True dat. Dunno about the hydro plumbing, I've only had ebb-and-flood.

Bushman: I disagree. I'm also surprised he can do as well as he can, cocurrent is so much less efficient.

Kegg_jam: Righton!

CR33G3R: How can you tell from here that he made a good heads cut? Maybe you can still taste ethyl acetate or acetic acid.

Rad: Ya, pretty much I think.

I'm inclined go for counter flow and then raise the hose (or whatever is required) if necessary.

Here is why:

Let's take the case when we want to extract the maximum amount of heat from a given hot stream. What design should we adopt? The figure below depicts heat exchanger schematics and the temperature profiles for both cocurrent (or parallel) and countercurrent designs:

Hence, in a cocurrent design, the temperature of the cold stream outlet, Tc,out is always lesser than that of the hot stream outlet, Th,out. Therefore, the heat transfer is restricted by the cold stream's outlet temperature, Tc,out.

On the other hand, in a countercurrent design, the restriction is relaxed and Tc,out can exceed Th,out. Hence in this design, the heat transfer is restricted by the cold stream's inlet temperature, Tc,in .

Therefore, to achieve greater heat recovery, a countercurrent design is preferred to that of a cocurrent design.
[/color]
Sarang Nath, Delhi.

I just love graphs and numbers.

[Danespirit]

OK. I just ran a second run of All Grain in my Brewhaus PSII High Capacity still (CM Still) and I watched this vid which confused me more!

In this video the guy mentions stuff like Isopropyl and Acetone being present in a Standard Spirit Run.

I remember Chemistry, as it was one of my best subjects, and if I recall correctly doesn't Acetone comes from Dry Distillation of Metal Acetates like Lead. Furthermore, Isopropyl, if I recall, was produced by a chemical process using Sulfuric Acid.

Does this dude know what he's talking about? If so, do I need to abandon my standard cuts by temp of :


< 174° = Foreshots

176° - 195° = Heads

196° - 201° = Hearts

201° - 208° = Tails

Bitter already mentioned something about the temperature.
I would like to add...if your thermometer ain't 100% true on it's reading, your results will also differ..
To come close you can do the boiling water test, if your therm shows 100 C you're very close to a true reading. If not subtract or add the value it's out of scale with.
Your best tools for doing cuts however, are your nose and tongue.
Use the thermometer to determine what's going on in your column. Unstable temperatures indicate things ain't sorted out yet..or changes are taking place.

[still_stirrin]

...if your thermometer ain't 100% true on it's reading, your results will also differ...

Excellent.

Also consider that the saturation temperature of a liquid mixture varies with pressure as well. Close the system by plugging the vapor outlet and the internal boiler pressure rises. As it does, so does the saturation temperature (the temperature of the liquid/vapor where both phases exist). The saturation temperature is the "scaler" that you are measuring.

So, if the vapor flow path is restricted, such as with a small diameter vapor pipe or scrubbies in the line or even a long tube like you'd have with a worm (especially a small diameter tube), there will be a pressure loss due to friction and that causes the source vessel to increase pressure to push the vapor through the system. And as the boiler pressure increases, so will the saturation temperature of the mixture inside (restated with reason).

Running by temperature requires very exacting controls...much more than simply looking at a thermometer. You would need to monitor pressure and (ideally, mass flow but acceptably volume) flow rates in addition to temperature to correctly predict the composition of the constituents in the product.

Bear in mind that commercial alcohol producers invest in multiple sensors and controls to monitor and regulate their production processes. And alcohol for fuel producers spend millions U$D to ensure the quality meets federal standards. It's far from a simple thermometer!
ss

[Bushman]

Bushman: I disagree. I'm also surprised he can do as well as he can, cocurrent is so much less efficient.

Scientifically you are probably correct on the flow but in my feeble mind I have a dephlagmater and if I filled from the top and it exited at the bottom I don't understand how it can fill the full chamber as it exits thus not covering all 5 tubes unless I blast the water in faster than it can exit. I also like the idea of having the coldest water at the bottom as for reflux it seems it would knock down the vapors prior to entering the tubes thus working toward equalibrium. Mentally in my brain this just seems logical but I don't have the data or science to back it up. On a side note my water does enter through the top but the tube goes to the bottom of the dephlagmater then exits a higher tube toward the top.
Below is a picture of my dephlagmater with the water lines.

[still_stirrin]

I think you're right Bushman because with your dephlag, if filled from the top and drained at the bottom, it likely would have an air bubble inside. Water is MUCH better at conducting heat than air so regardless of counter or parallel flow, filling the condenser with water is better than having a big air bubble inside.

Now, if you "pre-charged" your dephlag....filled it completely with water before inserting into your column, then you might gain a little advantage with the flow direction of the water reversed. But in a dephlag, especially one that is fully inserted into the vapor column (like yours is), the difference in heat transfer will be minimal at best.

It would seem that the conduction of heat through the copper would make the dephlag external surface nearly the same, top or bottom. So yours acts like a "heatsink mass" inside the column.
ss

[Bushman]

Thanks, I've been running it for several years and can attain 100% reflux without throwing a lot of water so somethings working

[der wo]

I compared this during a water run with my reflux liebig condenser of my LM still. I directed the water from the small product liebig into the reflux condenser either at the bottom or at the top. It was MUCH more efficient at the top. At the bottom my condenser was too small to condense all the vapor.
After assembling the still I always open up the water valve widely to push out the air in the condenser, until I see no more bubbles coming through the hose from the condenser.

[pfshine]

As long as it does what ya want it to, don't really matter how ya plumb it. Another way to skin the can is to put an air bleed on it.

[Bushman]

As long as it does what ya want it to, don't really matter how ya plumb it. Another way to skin the can is to put an air bleed on it.

[skow69]

Agreed, any such heat exchanger needs to be filled with water and no air bubbles to function at its best. Fortunately, with our typical dimroth style reflux condensers both ends of the coil exit at the top so it is self purging. Your dephlegmator is a horse of a different color. It may well be worth while to run it cocurrently just to be sure that it is full of coolant.

I find it interesting that der wo could arrange a real life situation that would demonstrate the difference between co- and counter-. I think most of our stills (at least the homemade ones) probably have enough overkill built in that they could get the job done either way.

Bushman, that valve has mash rookie written all over it.

[Bushman]

Bushman, that valve has mash rookie written all over it.

You are right! The valves are his design but I made most of them on my CNC machine. He helped me build my condensers in trade for design drawings and CNC cuts for both his and my condensers to get all the holes lined up. He got licensed to build commercial stills just before he realized he had ALS and his first commercial still that he built was 100 gallons. I drew the plans in a 3D solid model program I have that allows me to check both volume and area. Then the software allows me to do a roll-out which makes a 2D cut pattern and includes everything but the tabs. It was nice my CAD/CAM/CNC skills and his creativity. I sure miss working with him.

I do agree with you on most condensers, my problem sometimes is I answer questions thinking about my build and how it functions. Like I mentioned earlier both my intake and outtake are at the top.

[Bushman]

As we go back and forth on counter flow I am hoping we answered the OP's question to his satisfaction.

[CRACKERCREEK]

I know everyone has chimed in already but I feel I should put in my two cents. I am a "roots" Brewer I'm talking the bares' but I use modern equipment to make sure everything is right. But that is besides the point here. You can only use temp as a mark with distilling and brewing. Your system may only start pulling down harts at 190*-ish like mine (I attribute this to the thickness of the metal used and the amount of heat I use due to time constraints. I simply don't have the amount of time needed for the drip drop some talk of. I use a really sophisticated system of taste, smell and feel. Yep I use a parrot and all but I use myself as the "master blender of my particular system. Each is different, this is why you should "learn your system" I can't see the link for the vid because I'm using the Tapatalk for iPhones but only a dickhead would plumb a libeig backwards I also added a spiral "counter spiral" inside mine and use a high pressure pump to do the work. I have done just under 90 runs with the current setup and I'd say it's working well at this stage of the game.

[CRACKERCREEK]

https://vimeo.com/160685565

[Bagasso]

I remember Chemistry, as it was one of my best subjects, and if I recall correctly doesn't Acetone comes from Dry Distillation of Metal Acetates like Lead. Furthermore, Isopropyl, if I recall, was produced by a chemical process using Sulfuric Acid.

If this is what is confuisng you it might be because your thinking that those are the only way to make them.

Yeast make them during the fermentation process. At least acetone and 1-propanol (isomer of isopropyl), among others.

[CR33G3R]

Skow
Sorry for the supper late reply. I said that I agreed with the heads cut because of how he explained it not because of what was shown.
As for the plumbing of a RC wile I on an engineering level completely agree with you, as has already been mentioned there are needs for a work around for those who run a RC with the inlet higher that the outlet. Thus plumbing cocurrent.

For sure there is always more than one way to skin a cat..

[skow69]

Riteon.

Riteon.