I've finally found the time to put it all together and do some cleaning runs. It's 2inch pipe, filled with SPP, a 3inch shotgun condenser on top, and a 2inch shotgun condensor for the outlet.
I'm currently using a 2KW T500 type boiler, which for water barely gives me a drop per second. Wrapping it with towels helps increase the rate, but hopefully with ethanol it is faster. I don't have the need for a valve for the product because I am already running it down with the 3:2 conversion and less holes on the 2inch shotgun condensor. Equilibrium is pretty much reached by the time the whole thing heats up so not much need for tweaking that , but I have a valve I may use if needed. Since I will likely triple distill everything and I'm only interested in a very neutral product I don't think it will matter much.
Looks fine.
I think you will like the valve for foreshots compression. I have not understand: Do you have done an ethanol run or only water or vinegar runs?
I would change the water flow from the product condensor to the top of the reflux condenser. The efficiency is way better. You only have to ensure, that all the air is blown out. For that you need a few seconds a little more water pressure probably.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
der wo wrote:Looks fine.
I think you will like the valve for foreshots compression. I have not understand: Do you have done an ethanol run or only water or vinegar runs?
I would change the water flow from the product condensor to the top of the reflux condenser. The efficiency is way better. You only have to ensure, that all the air is blown out. For that you need a few seconds a little more water pressure probably.
From my talks with Dad300 and other SPP users it seems by the time the whole pipe heats up you have condensed a lot of the heads anyhow. But since I will likely be triple distilling through this rig and making cuts it hardly matters in my opinion. By the 2nd or 3rd cut there should be nearly nothing left.
So put the intake into the top of the reflux condensor? I'll try that, I've only done water runs at the moment, about to run some white wine through it to help clean it out.
I think you have read, that ethanol distillation and water distillation is extreme different runing a VM. So be prepared, that you will have a really fast product output, if you run it without a valve.
I have done comparisions between the two water directions. For me it's a proven fact, that the water flow from the top is better.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
der wo wrote:I think you have read, that ethanol distillation and water distillation is extreme different runing a VM. So be prepared, that you will have a really fast product output, if you run it without a valve.
I have done comparisions between the two water directions. For me it's a proven fact, that the water flow from the top is better.
Yeah there was a bug in my design. I put some stainless wool in my 2inch shotgun condensor and it improved the rate quite a lot. It was hard to notice on the water but with the wine it was easy to see gas coming out the product end.
Seems I can get around 1.8 litres per hour at ~85% concentration. Because that concentration isn't high enough I'm probably putting too much through the product end right now, need to slow it down a bit. I'll try a 1inch condensor in the output, which should reduce it significantly from the current 2inch it is and give me the 96% .
Seems the wine I used was only 8%, so 8% to 85% at 30C in one pass isn't so bad I guess. I'm getting 95% at ~30C with some 20% low wines I have which is nice. Since I will be double distilling at least the last run should clear it completely up. I tried a one inch constricter but the product rate was too slow for my liking.
The low wines I'm doing now barely have any smell which is vastly different from my old copper still, so I'm getting some pretty pure stuff. Can't wait to try it!
So the layering of heads, hearts and tails with this rig is very nice. Very distinct layers. I also like how there is barely any fuss, just turn on the water so no gas is escaping and no other tweaking needed. I tasted some of the hearts I got it and it was great, barely any smell or flavor. The heads and tails were very compressed, About 15% was not hearts, but this was on treated low wines which could probably be expected.
raketemensch wrote:It's weird to get us d to the compression, no? The first few runs I just assumed I was doing it wrong.
I'm not sure what you mean.
raketemensch wrote:She's a beauty, how's the drop?
Well I am after the neutrals of neutrals, so the less "taste" the better as I always mix my drinks. And it was very good, at least as good as absolut in taste, it has less of a heads smell than absolut but taste wise very similar. I'm not sure if its just my tongue or not but I have a feeling there are sulphites in every vodka I drink, including my batch. Or it could be the way I mix my drinks the alcohol could be effecting the mixes I use, hard to say. One time I left the "sweetened mix" stuff with the pure vodka before adding gas water and it sort of coagulated very weirdly. Hopefully with time I become better at tasting the differences and yeah, for my first run I'm very happy with it.
I'm distilling my 10% in 10 hours batch right now so hopefully this is ok too. I think the more runs I put through it the cleaner and better it should get.
You've built a beautiful rig.
Now I have a question to get you thinking.
What and how are you fermenting? Sugar wash? All grain? Remember we can only get out what we put in.
The better your protocol for ferment the better your drink will be. Just something to think about.
Btw love the setup.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
Has anyone ever had their rig just not able to go past a certain temperature? Tonight my rig struggled to get above 80C when distilling a 10% wash. If I had have kept it going for another hour it may have kept going but the first 800mls I extracted came very quick, within 25 minutes and then it took another 40 minutes to get 200 mls. I have a feeling I don't have a powerful enough boiler for this setup, I also can't hear any liquid in my 1M of pipe which is a good sign I'm not getting great efficiency from my SPP either.
It is probably the shut down function of a VM. I think you know what I am talking about?
Did you collect all the ethanol from the wash?
Edit: 2kW for 2" SPP is good. But are you sure, there is no cycling electronic?
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
We need more information in order to provide a decent answer... All we have now is questions...
What was the volume of wash in the boiler...???
How much heat were you applying...??? 2000W...???
Have you measured the %ABV of your collected spirits and, if so, what was the reading...???
Just a hunch but if you got 1200ml out of a 10% wash and only had 3 - 4 gallons in the boiler then you got all of the spirits other than the tails which VM's are noted for not producing...
I takes a lot of power/time to push the tails out of a VM. And the SPP makes it more so.
I'm amazed that that Product Condenser is working. That appears tiny! Good experiment... You might not need the SS Scrubbie in the PC if you turn it to a 45 deg angle or add some restriction at the output end. A 1"x1" piece of gauze stuffed in the end.
If you change boilers/heaters, expect more than 2kw to overpower it.
der wo wrote:It is probably the shut down function of a VM. I think you know what I am talking about?
Did you collect all the ethanol from the wash?
Edit: 2kW for 2" SPP is good. But are you sure, there is no cycling electronic?
No I'm not sure about the element in this boiler. It says it is 2000W and is pretty much the exact thing you find on T500s, if that helps. Either way given how much weight and steel I have, it seems not powerful enough.
DAD300 wrote:I takes a lot of power/time to push the tails out of a VM. And the SPP makes it more so.
I'm amazed that that Product Condenser is working. That appears tiny! Good experiment... You might not need the SS Scrubbie in the PC if you turn it to a 45 deg angle or add some restriction at the output end. A 1"x1" piece of gauze stuffed in the end.
If you change boilers/heaters, expect more than 2kw to overpower it.
The tails was smeared through the entire thing nearly, except for about 300mls. So the compression of the tails sucked on this 10% wash. I believe the biggest reason it struggled tonight vs my first wine wash was the ambient temp was about 8C cooler. It barely struggled to distil water the other night, and tonight it just couldn't push past 80C. My boiler sucks, or is just not powerful enough. I took the towels off and the temp at the PC dropped immediately 1.
In regards to the product condenser the 2inch to 0.75inch converter is actually warmer than the condenser itself, but its only 30C and seems to be doing the job. I can't see any gas escaping unlike before I added the SS scrubbers to the shotgun pipes. I was happy that the first ~400mls of this 10% wash came out at 90%, but I feel if I can get the right energy up the pipe I would probably be seeing 96% the whole way through.
rad14701 wrote:We need more information in order to provide a decent answer... All we have now is questions...
What was the volume of wash in the boiler...???
How much heat were you applying...??? 2000W...???
Have you measured the %ABV of your collected spirits and, if so, what was the reading...???
Just a hunch but if you got 1200ml out of a 10% wash and only had 3 - 4 gallons in the boiler then you got all of the spirits other than the tails which VM's are noted for not producing...
Well I would be happy if it was pure hearts in there but it smelt like tails from about 400mls on. The first 400mls was 90%, the rest was 80%. In total there was about 900ml of alcohol collected, and more was coming out I just couldn't be bothered waiting for the last ~200mls since the 200mls before that took 40mins, whereas the first 800mls was 20 mins.
hoochlover wrote:but I feel if I can get the right energy up the pipe I would probably be seeing 96% the whole way through.
Not without a valve. Or a more restricted product path.
My opinion is, first you have to find out, what wattage your heater uses after heat up. There are meters, you connect them between device and power point.
There are always tails at the end of the run. Even at 96%. If you do a single run of course earlier.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
skow69 wrote:How long did you hold it in equilibrium and what reflux ratio are you running?
No equilibrium. He runs the VM without a valve.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
hoochlover wrote:but I feel if I can get the right energy up the pipe I would probably be seeing 96% the whole way through.
Not without a valve. Or a more restricted product path.
My opinion is, first you have to find out, what wattage your heater uses after heat up. There are meters, you connect them between device and power point.
There are always tails at the end of the run. Even at 96%. If you do a single run of course earlier.
Well according to Dad300 and other SPP users increasing heat up the pipe (to a certain point) increases the efficiency of the SPP. Basically if you are running a liquid pipe you are going to get a cleaner product at the end. I'm nearly certain mine isn't in a liquid state.
And I am aware there are always tails, but if you have a very efficient distillation process then it will be more compressed and less smearing in the hearts. I saw this with my low wines but not with a 10% wash.
skow69 wrote:How long did you hold it in equilibrium and what reflux ratio are you running?
No equilibrium. He runs the VM without a valve.
Well there is a 3 inch pipe at the main reflux condenser , and a 2 inch outlet for the product. Which should give a ratio a bit over 2:1. Then the fact my shotgun consenser for the 2inch only has 3 pipes vs 6 pipes for the RC also reduces it to some extent. After some talks with other SPP users they often run ratios 1:1 once it gets going because the efficiency is so high and they still hit 96%.
skow69 wrote:How long did you hold it in equilibrium and what reflux ratio are you running?
No equilibrium. He runs the VM without a valve.
But he said it is condenser controlled so he should be able to get total reflux.
hoochlover wrote:
And I am aware there are always tails, but if you have a very efficient distillation process then it will be more compressed and less smearing in the hearts. I saw this with my low wines but not with a 10% wash.
And what do we learn from this? How about, If you want a clean product distill it at least twice?
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
According to Odin (SPP-seller), SPP is most effective close to flooding. That's around 2.5-3kW for a 2" column. Of course 2kW would be good too.
You run a VM single run without stabilizing. I think, that is the taste problem. And perhaps theunfermented sugars.
And cycling is the time problem probably.
A 1:2 reflux ratio is nothing. For a neutral you need much more reflux and much less output. Perhaps they talk about whiskey not neutral? BTW, I also use SPP. 1m 2" column 2.6kW LM.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
der wo wrote:According to Odin (SPP-seller), SPP is most effective close to flooding. That's around 2.5-3kW for a 2" column. Of course 2kW would be good too.
Yes I'm aware of that, and given this boiler is probably crap it is making it even worse.
der wo wrote:You run a VM single run without stabilizing. I think, that is the taste problem. And perhaps theunfermented sugars.
And cycling is the time problem probably.
Not sure what you mean by taste problem? I never said I had a taste problem. I've only tasted double distilled low wines from this and it was great.
der wo wrote:A 1:2 reflux ratio is nothing. For a neutral you need much more reflux and much less output. Perhaps they talk about whiskey not neutral? BTW, I also use SPP. 1m 2" column 2.6kW LM.
Given other guys with SPP are getting 96% at 1:1 ratios I don't think 2:1 is a problem here. I'm just not getting enough heat up the pipe to make my SPP efficient enough. From what I've read if you don't have enough power going up the pipe with SPP it is only a bit better than steel wool. With enough power it blows it away, too much and you'll flood the column and have a lot of mess!
hoochlover wrote:Well there is a 3 inch pipe at the main reflux condenser , and a 2 inch outlet for the product. Which should give a ratio a bit over 2:1. Then the fact my shotgun consenser for the 2inch only has 3 pipes vs 6 pipes for the RC also reduces it to some extent. After some talks with other SPP users they often run ratios 1:1 once it gets going because the efficiency is so high and they still hit 96%.
Those "other SPP users" are controlling the reflux ratio with a valve or movable condenser, which allows for making changes during the run, which is essential for taking advantage of a reflux column.
They run at 1:1 to maximize takeoff rate, after stacking the column. It is not just a matter of "getting going," it is the process of compressing the fractions.
You are aware that you can't get to 1:1 anyway, right?
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
hoochlover wrote:The tails was smeared through the entire thing nearly, except for about 300mls. So the compression of the tails sucked on this 10% wash.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
hoochlover wrote:The tails was smeared through the entire thing nearly, except for about 300mls. So the compression of the tails sucked on this 10% wash.
That shouldn't be a surprise with a 10% charge and no euilibration. You are not giving the column a chance to do its job.
You guys type faster than me.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
I've only tasted double distilled low wines from this and it was great.