No current to heating element

[Mr Sippy]

Hey guys- thought I could get through this without asking for help. Turned out otherwise.

I built my controller based on this thread.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 85&t=53167

My version has a 110 circuit w/ plug-in transformer to power 12v fan. Also has Bayrite panel meter. Camco 5500W wavy element.

When switched on: Fans powers up and panel meter lights showing voltage but not power (or current). Turning pot knob yield no change.
In order of checking:
There are 240V across main terminals of ssvr. No change in V when turn pot
Leg 1) There is continuity from main output terminal of ssvr to heater element
Leg 2) There is continuity from switch to heater element
Center tab of pot is wired to Pw.
There is no voltage across Pw and P+. And no change when turn pot.
There is no voltage across Pw and P-. And no change when turn pot.
There is 120V across each heater element terminal and earth.
There is no resistance across the element terminals. I thought this was odd

I plugged it in last night and gave it about 30 min. I dont think it was heating up but I dont have a way to measure current except with the panel meter. The only miswire I had was initially connecting the panel voltmeter after the ssvr and had no display at all. Moving it to the input side of the ssvr powered up the panel meter and shows proper voltage. Any ideas why I have no power? Thanks

Sellers schematic

My implementation

[skow69]

Your relay is not engaging. If the wiring is correct and you have no voltage at the potentiometer, the fault has to be with the SSR. The pot has to have some voltage and it has to come from the SSR. The only other choice is the pot. You can test it for resistence but you have to take it out of the circuit first.

[skow69]

When you test voltage at the pot, be sure you are on a DC scale.

[ShineRunner]

I wish I could help. I can't really follow your diagram. This will be hard to troubleshoot remotely.

Best advice I could give would be to say start at the beginning and trace step by step where power starts and stops. It could be something as simple as your main power switch wired backwards or even a bad relay. More than likely, something is just connected wrong. Keep at it and check methodically. I'm sure it's something simple.

Good luck

SR

[shadylane]

There is 120V across each heater element terminal and earth.

Is there 240 between the heater terminals

There is no resistance across the element terminals. I thought this was odd

That is odd, there should be around 10 ohms

[Mr Sippy]

Your relay is not engaging. If the wiring is correct and you have no voltage at the potentiometer, the fault has to be with the SSR. The pot has to have some voltage and it has to come from the SSR. The only other choice is the pot. You can test it for resistence but you have to take it out of the circuit first.

I was afraid of that. I'm sure of wiring, there is continuity and voltage from beginning to end. Borrowed a digital meter and re-checked voltage across pot connections on DC scale; no change. Also re-checked all other voItage. Measured pot for resistance on both sides. 0 to 10Kohm. Not sure what is supposed to be.

Shadylane:
I get no volt measurement across the heater element terminals. Only 120v between either terminal and ground. Is this significant? Also with the borrowed meter I now have 10 ohm across heater element. $10 analog meter is in the can.

Conclusion
Guess I have to order another relay from Schnapps. This is the first time it was powered up and I'm wondering if it was bad to begin with. I ordered back in August so I'm sure Jason will regard the sale as final even though I've gotten excellent response from him previously. Is there any way to test these out of the box without putting them on line? Thanks fellas.

[still_stirrin]

There is no resistance across the element terminals. I thought this was odd

Did you test it "in circuit", or before installing it in the circuit? Check it by itself (out of the circuit) with your ohm meter.
ss

[still_stirrin]

Measured pot for resistance on both sides. 0 to 10Kohm. Not sure what is supposed to be.

What is the SSVR part number? A 10k ohm pot may not be enough to turn the relay on. If it was part of a kit, I would believe they would ship the correct parts, but I'd want to double check the specs.
ss

[Mr Sippy]

Measured pot for resistance on both sides. 0 to 10Kohm. Not sure what is supposed to be.

What is the SSVR part number? A 10k ohm pot may not be enough to turn the relay on. If it was part of a kit, I would believe they would ship the correct parts, but I'd want to double check the specs.
ss

Its the 40 amp model from Schnapps Stills. Someone else makes them but he puts on his sticker.

I alluded to Schnapps customer service. That was because a month after shipment I told him I didn't receive the potentiometer (true) and he sent one without question. But separate and considerably later than the relay. Hmmm....

Gonna pursue this. Thanks.

[shadylane]

If you connect a jumper from L1 to T1 it will bypass the ssvr, for troubleshooting purposes.

[Moonlighter]

That relay has software in it. Thats why they work so well! DO NOT put a jumper on the relay! Looking at your wiring it appears incorrect. It doesnt match the wiring dia sent by the supplier. You have a ground on a heating element. That is WRONG and dangerous! Not sure how you are wiring this 120v/vs240v but it appears to be 240v judging by wire color. Either way you do not install a ground on the heating element itself. The ground should be connected to your boiler. The wiring dia is correct, I have this controller and it works excellent and has for years!

[Mr Sippy]

Moonlighter- thanks for your response. It was your post that inspired me to build this controller.
I never said the schematic is bad.
I added a 120v circuit to the schematic but still think my circuitry comports with the provided plan and follows commonly accepted practices.
Any ambiguity or in my implementation drawing is, of course, my fault.
I did not 'jump' the terminals, but I did take the relay/pot off line and everything works flawlessly. Fan, panel meter, element drawing 22.4 A and heating.

On the pot issue: The 10K ohm control is listed right on the sticker.
And the pot did measure in the stated range 0-10. So back to faulty relay?

Thanks all for your time and interest in my problem. Got a couple more things I want to try yet.

[rad14701]

That relay has software in it. Thats why they work so well! DO NOT put a jumper on the relay! Looking at your wiring it appears incorrect. It doesnt match the wiring dia sent by the supplier. You have a ground on a heating element. That is WRONG and dangerous! Not sure how you are wiring this 120v/vs240v but it appears to be 240v judging by wire color. Either way you do not install a ground on the heating element itself. The ground should be connected to your boiler. The wiring dia is correct, I have this controller and it works excellent and has for years!

Do you have any information on this "software" that is supposedly in this particular relay...??? Would like the exact make and model number... Never heard of relays having "software" in them... They are solid state relays, meaning they have no moving parts, just integrated circuitry... And what would be the purpose of said "software"...???

[ShineRunner]

That relay has software in it. Thats why they work so well! DO NOT put a jumper on the relay! Looking at your wiring it appears incorrect. It doesnt match the wiring dia sent by the supplier. You have a ground on a heating element. That is WRONG and dangerous! Not sure how you are wiring this 120v/vs240v but it appears to be 240v judging by wire color. Either way you do not install a ground on the heating element itself. The ground should be connected to your boiler. The wiring dia is correct, I have this controller and it works excellent and has for years!

His diagram doesn't show how he's grounding the boiler. It just shows that the ground wire goes out through that receptacle to the element. There is no ground connection on most elements. How is a ground going to the element wrong or dangerous? Mine goes to a tapped screw on the base of the element. The base is the same as the threads. The threads thread into a triclamp collar. The collar is connected to the boiler mechanically. Solid and safe.

[shadylane]

I did not 'jump' the terminals, but I did take the relay/pot off line and everything works flawlessly. Fan, panel meter, element drawing 22.4 A and heating

You have divided the problem in half

On the pot issue: The 10K ohm control is listed right on the sticker.
And the pot did measure in the stated range 0-10. So back to faulty relay?

With the power off, measure the resistance between PW and P+ then measure from P- to PW
It should very between 0 and 10,000 ohms as the pot is adjusted.
If it does, the pot is good and the SSVR is shot
On a side note, make sure you haven't got the wires from the pot to the ssvr swapped.
Just guessing, but with the pot turned to 50%.... PW should have 5k to both p- and P+
If it dos not, the pot may be wired wrong

[Stainless]

Not sure what you have there but could it possibly be that you have a solid state relay unit that requires 0-30 volts for control???

[Mr Sippy]

Shadylane
Thanks for the idea to bypass the relay. I like to think I would have thought of it eventually
I had tested pot resistance earlier per scow69. Tested it out of circuit and range was perfect 0-10K.

Stainless
Got no data on the relay other than Sellers provisions. Comfortable with 240VAC input though.

Update
Had a lengthy exchange of e-mails last night with Jason at Schnapps Stills, where I purchased the relay, pot, and switch. It was an exceptional level of service and response and I'm coming around to the notion the relay is bad.

This from scow69: "Your relay is not engaging. If the wiring is correct and you have no voltage at the potentiometer, the fault has to be with the SSR. The pot has to have some voltage and it has to come from the SSR."

That is compelling reasoning and one that I was looking and testing to obviate.
I don't want the relay to be faulty because it cost $75. And if I caused it to be faulty will I cause it to be faulty again.

I have one last piece of misunderstanding before I order a new relay though. Both Schnapps and shadylane asked if I had 240V across the heater element terminals. I don't. It reads zero voltage. Both terminals measure 120V to ground, individually. Is zero voltage across the element terminals meaningful? Powered up and with the relay off line the element was pulling 22.4 amp.

For those of you gracious enough to review my implementation drawing I apologize for any lack of clarity. My next sketch will be better. Thanks again everyone.

[skow69]

If you disconnect the red wire only from the element you will find the same readings, 0v across the element, 120v on each terminal to ground, and 0v on the red wire from the relay. When the relay engages, you will see 120v on the red wire also. You can't tell with your voltmeter, but that red wire voltage is out of phase with the black wire voltage so they add together to make 240v. I hope that makes sense.

[Mr Sippy]

scow69- It does make sense and I think I'm starting to get the hang of it. And I don't get 240V across the heater terminals simply because I get no current, which has been my problem the whole time. That is, if the v=ir is correct in this application

There's more:
Since acquiring the digital multi-meter I remeasured voltage across Pw-P+ and Pw-P-. I measure very low voltage, 0 to 0.06V through the range of the pot
The voltage between P+ and ground is 120. So is the voltage from P- to ground. I think Pw to ground was 240.
Something is wrong between Pw and his pals. And its in the relay. Something you said way back but I feel more certain about it now.

Well, new relay it is. I need a break anyway Thanks everyone- I'll post up my repair.

[shadylane]

Sounds like the relay is toast.
Just for shits and grins, and to make sure the next relay doesn't smoke
With the power off, measure the resistance between P- and P+ it should be around 10K
Then check resistance from Pw to P- and P+ ... both should vary from 0 to 10K as the pot is moved

[skow69]

Mr. Sippy, for the price of a potentiometer, I think I would get a new pot along with the SSR. Just to start off fresh.

[rad14701]

Can we PLEASE get the exact make and model number of the relay in question...??? By looking at the diagram above this is a voltage controlled relay yet it works differently than other relays that require a controller daughterboard... I'd like to pull up the specification sheet on the relay as they are usually available in PDF format...

[skow69]

I agree with Rad, that is an odd circuit. I have been assuming that the retailer's diagram was accurate, but you never know.

[Mr Sippy]

Mr. Sippy, for the price of a potentiometer, I think I would get a new pot along with the SSR. Just to start off fresh.

It comes as a kit on the ebay store. Relay, heat sink, pot and knob. But thanks. If there were a choice, I prob would have got the relay only. The screen told me it would arrive Jan 24-27. I don't mind waiting.

Can't comment on the relay itself but I do believe this: That it is american made with quality. Giving Schnapps Stills the benefit of any doubt, I'm sure that I received a good relay. Can't imagine what I could have done, and I hope I don't do it again. But it's yesterdays news. Have to say I was very satisfied with support and response I got from Jason. He was a little circumspect about my wiring but that's OK. He was cordial and I received a response within a few minutes of every e-mail. And there were a bunch. It would be unfair to let my experience (thus far) be the yardstick for this relay.

I'm certain my controller, when fixed and running will be a great piece of gear. Stay tuned.

Cheers

[rad14701]

I did a bit more research on that relay and looked at the diagrams in the other topic... Personally, I'd skip that relay and go with a far less complicated circuit... I have never seen one that wires up that strangely and cannot find them anywhere else on the internet... I'd write it off as a loss and buy a far cheaper and easier to wire relay, which is what you'd have to do if it were to fail and SchnappStills stops carrying them... It's quite the bastardized little unit... Not resistance controlled and not voltage controlled, per se... It uses a combination of both... Feedback voltage adjusted by potentiometer to control power output... It's available in both 40A and 60A... I see zero advantage to the added complexity...

[Mr Sippy]

OK She works!

Cleaned up the wiring a little bit. Keep the colors consistent. I think that might have had something to do with the problem. Did my vinegar run and seemed to work well. The current change is perfectly synched to the sweep of the pot knob.

With some help I found out a little bit about these relays. They are a typical solid state relay with a 'custom front end' (the pot connections). The comany that makes them is a small batch low volume outfit whose core business is relays and PCB's. They offer in-house design to customize their relays to various industry needs. And, if it matters, American made, certified eco-friendly, and veteran owned.

Still believe these are good units. Schnapps Stills had this relay built to have accurate and precise control for their own line of controllers and I'm glad they're available, my own experience notwithstanding. Was mistaken on price: $50. I don't think 2 extra wires adds much complexity. Unless they're not connected properly

Here are some pics

Fan, 30A receptacle and ground bar installed

110 receptacle w/ 12v trans and relay intalled

Final wiring, pot and meter hooked up

Cheers

[still_stirrin]

Good job.

I've been meaning to ask...about...Mrs. Sippy...is that, "Mississippi"?