Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Distillation methods and improvements.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Stibnut
Novice
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Stibnut »

I work as a lab tech in a distillery that produces mostly industrial-grade and pharmaceutical-grade ethanol, with some fuel and some beverage-grade product as well. It’s a pretty large facility and I have access to some nice lab equipment, including a pair of GCs.

A week and a half ago, a severe thunderstorm knocked out power for a couple of hours. Power outages and surges are kind of a pain: they mess up the fermenters, damage electrical equipment, and generally cause disruptions that last for two or three days before everything comes back online. As a result, there was a two day window where there were no samples to run and not much of anything to do at the lab. So I killed the time by doing a few of my own experiments.

The most interesting one was where I added about 0.2 mL each of methanol and isobutanol to 75 mL of high-purity 96% ethanol, and then diluted this up to 500 mL with water. Then I distilled the mixture in a lab retort flask with a Graham condenser, taking off several fractions through the distillation. The idea was to make a simple simulation of a pot still run with a 14.5% ABV charge and study how methanol and isobutanol (the second-most common fusel alcohol after isoamyl) concentrate in each fraction.

I took off a “foreshot” consisting of the first drips, about 0.75 mL, just enough to run on the GC. Then I took four fractions of 35-42.5 mL each, followed by a larger tail fraction of 110 mL. The ABV of the main four fractions fell from 68.18% for the first to 14.37% for the fourth, while the fifth was just 1.28%. There was far too little in the foreshot to run on the density meter; I guesstimated its ABV as 72%.

Methanol boils at 65 C, ethanol boils at 78 C, and isobutanol at 108 C. Many people think that what should happen is that the methanol will concentrate in the foreshots, the hearts are mostly just ethanol, and the tails will contain the isobutanol along with mostly water.

As you can see, this is very much the opposite of what actually happened:

Image

Image

Image
MeOH-iBuOH Pot Still Experiment.xlsx
(44.26 KiB) Downloaded 189 times
The first graph shows the concentration of methanol and isobutanol in mg/L for each fraction. The second is the number of mg of methanol/isobutanol for each gram of ethanol in each fraction. The third is the proportion of the final methanol/ethanol/isobutanol that had come off so far - e.g. by the time I switched from the second to the third cup, 94.52% of the total isobutanol I collected had already distilled over, compared to 68.45% of the total ethanol and 58.39% of the methanol.

Isobutanol’s concentration peaked in the foreshot and dropped off rapidly as the run continued. Meanwhile, methanol declined very slowly, and toward the end of the run it dropped off much less slowly than did ethanol. The ratio of methanol to ethanol did drop very slightly from the foreshot to the second fraction, but then it increased over the rest of the run - its concentration grew compared to that of ethanol beginning in the middle of the hearts and climbing through the tails.

The takeaway is that methanol comes out throughout a pot still run. It comes out disproportionately in the tails compared to ethanol and certainly compared to the fusels, but the majority of it comes out in the hearts right along with the ethanol. Discarding the foreshot doesn’t remove much more of it than would dumping a little portion of the middle of the hearts. Luckily, there isn’t enough methanol to worry about in really anything except brandy, and even there it still isn’t going to be more concentrated relative to ethanol than it is in the original wine.

The reason to dump the foreshot has nothing to do with methanol. A lot of other nasty stuff concentrates there instead, including acetaldehyde, acetal, ethyl acetate, fusels, and some other hydrophobic impurities. When distilling a fairly dilute ethanol solution, the water has a tendency to push out hydrophobic compounds, making them more volatile than you’d expect from their boiling points. Meanwhile, anything that is more hydrophilic than ethanol will be pulled in and will become relatively less volatile. Methanol is in this category, so it shows up more in the tails than ethanol itself does. Because the hydrophobicity of the longer-chain alcohols goes up with the number of carbon atoms, the relative volatility of the alcohols in a wash are in the reverse order to their boiling points, and methanol itself stays less volatile than ethanol up to about 40% ABV. This thread has more information.
Brew bama
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:45 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Brew bama »

Well done.
User avatar
Tummydoc
Trainee
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:05 pm
Location: attack ship off the shoulder of Orion

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Tummydoc »

Awesome. Could be required reading for all!
Stibnut
Novice
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Stibnut »

ParrotHead wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:47 pm
Stibnut wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:43 am In a single pot still run, the longer-chain alcohols like isobutyl and isoamyl end up disproportionately in the heads/foreshots (along with acetaldehyde and ethyl acetate, which make up most of the headsy smell) while methanol ends up disproportionately in the tails. This is because water pushes out the more hydrophobic compounds including the fusel alcohols while pulling in the most hydrophilic ones like methanol, and this effect is more powerful than the difference in boiling points for pot still runs. The hydrophilicity/hydrophobicity effect diminishes so that the opposite is true for high ABVs, as you'll see if there is lots of reflux or if you are distilling something above about 50% ABV. But for a pot still, the order is the opposite of what you would think from the boiling points.
Thank you for such a wonderful explanation. So if methanol boils at 65 C, is it safe to say that under the hydrophilic conditions, its coming off in the water/ethanol tails portion? early tails or late tails (<40% ABV) ? So these high temp boiling fusel alcohols, isobutyl and isoamyl, actually are not boiling, they are just extremely volatile and come off early in the run? So then it makes sense that this is why its not safe to do a single pot still run and take tails cuts. Is this also why you should do a high ABV (35-40%) spirit run after your stripping run? - so that you get better "cut placement" of these fusel oils and methanol? You would expect methanol to come off in the foreshots/heads in less hydrophilic conditions of higher ABV spirit runs.
The isobutyl and isoamyl alcohols are part of the mix that is boiling, but they're not very close to their pure boiling points in a pot still run. Their volatility gets increased, compared to that of ethanol, methanol, and water, because the water is sort of pushing them out. As I understand it, it makes sense to talk about the entire mixture as boiling at some temperature where its combined vapor pressure exceeds atmospheric, but each individual component can't be seen as boiling on its own even above its normal boiling point. It's just contributing its vapor pressure towards the overall total, and it's the mixture that boils.

I also did do an experiment that repeated this one, but with a 48% still charge rather than 14.5%. I don't seem to have sent myself the spreadsheet but I'll try to dig it up at work tomorrow. I recall not finding it quite as interesting; the methanol and isobutanol both came out throughout the run. With methanol I believe the distribution was more U shaped - it came out enriched somewhat more in the heads and somewhat less in the hearts, but what was left picked back up in the tails compared to ethanol. That's probably because it is a little more volatile than ethanol at 48% ABV, but not enough for there to be very good separation into the heads fraction, and then what was left over in the still came over slightly enriched in the tails as in the single pot still run.

Methanol overall is just too similar to both ethanol and water to be well separated except in well-designed reflux setups. For a single pot still run, it is enriched relative to ethanol in the tails but the absolute concentration of it still declines over the run, just slower than does ethanol. Not taking tails would reduce the methanol level of the final distillate somewhat, but the majority of methanol is actually in the hearts along with the ethanol. The reason everyone here isn't blind/dead is just that there isn't much methanol produced in any yeast fermentation except that of fruits (due to pectins), and even brandy doesn't have more than the original wine. The human body can safely metabolize a little bit of methanol, up to a couple of grams at a time.
ravi
Novice
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun May 03, 2020 9:58 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by ravi »

Grt !!!! Keep it up)
thanks for info~~

cheers
In search of Dream whiskey.................
User avatar
acfixer69
Global moderator
Posts: 5133
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:34 pm
Location: CT USA

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by acfixer69 »

Methanol is not a great dangerous home distillers fear. It was added by the government during prohibition to taint ethanol none drinkable. Old fables are hard to erase.
User avatar
ParrotHead
Novice
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:31 am
Location: Delta Quadrant, Orion System

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by ParrotHead »

What about all these reports of methanol poisoning?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _incidents

Are these intentional methanol spikes?
“Alcohol does not solve problems, but then again, neither does milk.”
“Not to get technical, But according to chemistry Alcohol IS a solution.”
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13781
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by NZChris »

ParrotHead wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:37 pm What about all these reports of methanol poisoning?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _incidents

Are these intentional methanol spikes?
The first sentence in that wiki answers that question.
Stibnut
Novice
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Stibnut »

ParrotHead wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:37 pm What about all these reports of methanol poisoning? Wiki it. Are these intentional methanol spikes? Or cuts made too far into the tails?
It's true that there have been a number of cases of mass methanol poisoning in illegal spirits, especially but not entirely in the developing world. This seems to be mostly due to alcohol denatured with methanol (cheaper because it's untaxed, and methanol is cheaper than ethanol) finding its way into moonshine.

Some unscrupulous people might buy it and pass it off directly as ethanol, while others may buy it and attempt to distill the methanol out, but fail because methanol doesn't separate much at all from ethanol unless it is really well rectified. Also, some products used as surrogate alcohol (especially counterfeit ones) labeled as containing ethanol actually contain methanol-denatured ethanol or even straight methanol. There was a case in Russia a few years back (link) where a counterfeit bath lotion was labeled as containing ethanol like the real product, but the counterfeiters had substituted methanol because it is cheaper. Russia has big problems with ostensibly non-beverage alcohol being used for drinking, and apparently this brand of bath oil was popular among poor alcoholics. Somewhere between 74 and 156 people died.

I've also come across an article about moonshine in Africa noting that there have been some problems with methanol-fermenting organisms getting into palm wine and spirits made from it. This isn't something that is going to happen to home distillers with even basic sanitary practices, but it has caused some poisonings there.

What doesn't happen is methanol being created in toxic quantities in normal fermentation. If this did happen, it would hit homebrewers as well, especially winemakers because of the pectin that is hydrolyzed into methanol. Some people are convinced that distilling is dangerous because it can disproportionately concentrate the methanol, but it doesn't work like that: it really comes out throughout the run, with somewhat more in the tails than other alcohols but the majority still coming out together with most of the ethanol in the hearts.
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Setsumi »

there is a academic text published in 2017 with title, Distillation Techniques in the Fruit Spirits Production.

the summary is that in a ethanol rich environment methanol will behave more volitile and in a ethanol poor environment tend to stay bonded to water. in short in a reflux column it will tend to consentrate in heads and in a pot still in tails.... but will be present throughout the run.

I see you did do a run with high abv as a start. it would be super if you could verify the results in a reflux still.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2207
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Kareltje »

Read the publication:
A systematic review of the epidemiology of unrecorded alcohol consumption and the chemical composition of unrecorded alcohol

This is a research for at least very mucht of the horrorstories about death by alcohol drinking.
With a short description of the case, including the amount of deaths and the causes.

Some links: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... /add.12498
https://www.academia.edu/6598588/A_syst ... ed_alcohol

I believe the second one leads to a downloadable PDF. But if not, at least to a hoard of interesting studies.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2207
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Kareltje »

Stbnut: thank you very much for your work.
User avatar
Corsaire
Distiller
Posts: 1131
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:20 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Corsaire »

Thank you very much stibnut.
That first graph is easiest to grasp for me as a homegamer. Earlier studies only showed concentrations at g/lAA which can be confusing.
Now if you could sneak in some samples of say BW, UJSSM and home made brandy that would be awesome ;)
User avatar
Chauncey
Distiller
Posts: 1618
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:30 am
Location: NOLA

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Chauncey »

This thread is way beyond being controlled by PID

Just saying


I like it
<no stopping to corner anytime [] no parking passenger zone>

When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning, I sleep till noon.
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Twisted Brick »

Stibnut wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:02 pm
Methanol overall is just too similar to both ethanol and water to be well separated except in well-designed reflux setups. For a single pot still run, it is enriched relative to ethanol in the tails but the absolute concentration of it still declines over the run, just slower than does ethanol. Not taking tails would reduce the methanol level of the final distillate somewhat, but the majority of methanol is actually in the hearts along with the ethanol. The reason everyone here isn't blind/dead is just that there isn't much methanol produced in any yeast fermentation except that of fruits (due to pectins), and even brandy doesn't have more than the original wine. The human body can safely metabolize a little bit of methanol, up to a couple of grams at a time.
I just did my first plum brandy (double-distilled) yesterday from 9gal of 14% must, and have to say your excellent presentation of numbers and analysis has relieved any confusion I had on methanol concentrations. Comforting information to take forward in all of my future distillations.

Thanks for your most valuable contribution.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
User avatar
ParrotHead
Novice
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:31 am
Location: Delta Quadrant, Orion System

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by ParrotHead »

Stibnut wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:59 pm
ParrotHead wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:37 pm What about all these reports of methanol poisoning? Wiki it. Are these intentional methanol spikes? Or cuts made too far into the tails?
It's true that there have been a number of cases of mass methanol poisoning in illegal spirits, especially but not entirely in the developing world. This seems to be mostly due to alcohol denatured with methanol (cheaper because it's untaxed, and methanol is cheaper than ethanol) finding its way into moonshine.

Some unscrupulous people might buy it and pass it off directly as ethanol, while others may . . .
Thank you Stibnut. This has completely changed my view on methanol worries. Considering all the horrible solvents in foreshots, I'm guessing that its still a good idea to throw out the first 4-6 oz for 20L of wash?

Also, for a pot still, do you think it helps to have a high ABV spirit run (35-40%) to lower the hydrophobic environment for methanol? Is there a difference in a low ABV stripping run vs. a high ABV spirit run and where the methanol comes off, heads vs tails? Would a low hydrophobic environment cause methanol to behave more true to its boiling temperature of 64 C?
“Alcohol does not solve problems, but then again, neither does milk.”
“Not to get technical, But according to chemistry Alcohol IS a solution.”
User avatar
Windy City
Distiller
Posts: 1190
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Windy City »

Can't believe I missed this one.
It was a great read and should definitely be made into a sticky to be easily refrenced and guided to in the future.

Great work Stibnut :clap: :clap: :clap:
Thank You
The liver is evil and must be punished
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
User avatar
MartinCash
Swill Maker
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:15 pm
Location: Southern end of the land Down Under

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by MartinCash »

ParrotHead wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:20 am
Thank you Stibnut. This has completely changed my view on methanol worries. Considering all the horrible solvents in foreshots, I'm guessing that its still a good idea to throw out the first 4-6 oz for 20L of wash?

Also, for a pot still, do you think it helps to have a high ABV spirit run (35-40%) to lower the hydrophobic environment for methanol? Is there a difference in a low ABV stripping run vs. a high ABV spirit run and where the methanol comes off, heads vs tails? Would a low hydrophobic environment cause methanol to behave more true to its boiling temperature of 64 C?
It depends on whether you recycle heads or not. If you do, then tossing the vilest early heads will help you avoid the buildup of heads compounds that might reduce your hearts cut, as they are more concentrated in the early heads. You need to look at fores and heads as not essentially different, just a change in concentration of the same compounds.

As to the high ABV spirit runs, in my opinion no: safety first (even if this point is arguable, we might as well); and going back to the point made again and again: a normal fermentation (except of a high-pectin fruit wash) does not produce enough methanol to worry about.
4'' SS modular CCVM on gas-fired 50L keg.
Stibnut
Novice
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Stibnut »

I found the other dataset, where I did something similar but with a 46% ABV charge rather than 14.5%, to simulate a spirit run with low wines. The concentrations aren't strictly comparable because I added less of the methanol and isobutanol to more ethanol: about 0.1 mL of each to 125 mL 96% ethanol, diluted with water to an ABV of 46.12%. I also only took four fractions, with no foreshot and no deep tails. There's a 'heads' of 16.5 mL at 85.02%, then two 'hearts' fractions of 35 mL at 82.01% and 53.5 mL at 74.99%, and then a 'tails' of 41.5 mL at 38.68%.

In hindsight I wish I'd set these up in a more similar way, but I think the data is still usable. Here are the results; the graphs are set up the same as in the OP.
Screenshot 2020-08-04 at 1.21.07 AM.png
Screenshot 2020-08-04 at 1.21.31 AM.png
Screenshot 2020-08-04 at 1.22.36 AM.png
MeOH-iBuOH Pot Still Experiment With 2nd Run.xlsx
(66.94 KiB) Downloaded 176 times
The overall behavior of the two aren't that different from each other until you get to the tails fraction, where isobutanol drops off and methanol climbs as a ratio of ethanol, just as in the first pot still run. You can see how in the 'heads' fraction the isobutanol level is a bit lower while methanol is a bit higher than in the early hearts fraction, which does show how methanol starts out a bit more volatile than isobutanol before the ABV of what remains in the still falls and the pattern reverses.

To answer ParrotHead's question, I don't think that running low wines really changes things much, certainly for methanol and fusel alcohols. The 30-45% ABV range is where the volatility of all the alcohols are pretty similar to each other. If anything it might actually push fusel alcohols more into the heart.

But I'd note that most of the odor of heads are caused by compounds (e.g. acetaldehyde, acetal, ethyl acetate, other small esters, and acetone) that are more volatile than ethanol at any ABV. I also get the impression that a lot of the nasty "wet dog" stuff in the tails probably comes from short-chain fatty acids and the like; these are not all that volatile at any ABV but more than stinky enough to make up for that. Short-chain fatty acids contribute most of the odor of BO, vomit, and barnyard animals (propanoic, butyric, and caproic/caprylic/capric acids respectively).

Stripping runs followed by a spirit run make perfect sense from a time efficiency perspective, and that's what I do too. I doubt they help all that much with separation, although tossing foreshots from each stripping run combined with having two opportunities to leave some tails behind with the water definitely helps some.
Hügelwilli
Swill Maker
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Hügelwilli »

I am currently working on a congener simulation. We (me and other members of another distillers forum) have collected data of around 50 congeners. Volatilities in dependece of the alcohol concentration. Experimental data. From some important congeners we have data from up to six publications, what helps to jude the quality of the data and to decide, what's trustworthy enough.

In short, like you write, fores are aldehydes and esters, tails are acids. The higher alcohols are at stripping runs mostly in the heads, but the higher the abv, either because of high abv boiler charge or because of rectification, the more they are in the hearts or tails. And methanol comes earlier the higher the abv is. To push it in the fores, you need something like a 95%abv boiler charge and rectification.
But not all aldehydes behave the same and not all esters and there are other important compounds.

Here a link to a screenshot how the simulator looks like at the moment:
https://hobbybrennen.ch/download/file.p ... &mode=view
It visualizes the amount of some compounds per liter current distillate at a distillation of a 40% charge and very small rectification.
User avatar
8Ball
Distiller
Posts: 1510
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:12 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by 8Ball »

Thank you for your efforts and insight. Good job.

🎱
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
Stibnut
Novice
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Stibnut »

Hügelwilli wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:33 am I am currently working on a congener simulation. We (me and other members of another distillers forum) have collected data of around 50 congeners. Volatilities in dependece of the alcohol concentration. Experimental data. From some important congeners we have data from up to six publications, what helps to jude the quality of the data and to decide, what's trustworthy enough.

In short, like you write, fores are aldehydes and esters, tails are acids. The higher alcohols are at stripping runs mostly in the heads, but the higher the abv, either because of high abv boiler charge or because of rectification, the more they are in the hearts or tails. And methanol comes earlier the higher the abv is. To push it in the fores, you need something like a 95%abv boiler charge and rectification.
But not all aldehydes behave the same and not all esters and there are other important compounds.

Here a link to a screenshot how the simulator looks like at the moment:
https://hobbybrennen.ch/download/file.p ... &mode=view
It visualizes the amount of some compounds per liter current distillate at a distillation of a 40% charge and very small rectification.
Wow, that's amazing! That's so many different congeners, many of which I wouldn't have even thought of. Could you link the publications where you got the data, and is that program something we could download? I'd love to look around and see how different congeners behave according to your modeling.
Hügelwilli
Swill Maker
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Hügelwilli »

The simulator will be online like our other calculators here, named probably "Begleitstoffesimulator".
And there will be a second one, more practial, where you can calculate the influence of cutting points on the final spirit. Also cutting points at stripping runs.


Our sources are:

A) From pot stills to continuous stills: flavor modification by distillation" from Robert Piggot. Published in The Alcohol Textbook, Chapter 17.
Probably good data except acetaldehyde and acrolein. The volatility of acetaldehyde is not so extreme high according to other sources.

B) From Whisky Technology, Production and Marketing, original from Panek und Boucher, probably "Continuous distillation", published also in The Science and Technology of Whiskies (J. R. Piggott, R. Sharp and R. E. B. Duncan, eds), pp. **. Longman Scientific and Technical.
Uncertain quality. Our only data from phenol unfortunately.

C) "chemical aspects of distilling wines into brandy" from J.F. Guymon, 1973, published In Chemistry of Winemaking; Webb, A.; Advances in Chemistry; American Chemical Society: Washington, DC, 1974.
original from: Figures 5 and 6, prepared by Unger (36) from vapor-liquid equilibrium data obtained by Williams (37).

Very good data.

D) from Computer simulation applied to studying continuous spirit distillation and product quality control, Fabio R.M. Batista, Antonio J.A. Meirelles, Food Control 22 (2011) 1592-1603
Very bad data. But most congeners we have in other publications. Except acetone.

E) VAPOR-LIQUID EQUILIBRIA OF ORGANIC HOMOLOGUES IN ETHANOL-WATER SOLUTIONS ®. C. WILLIAMS
Very good data and many and very important congeners. This is the most important source we have. The raw data is better than the curves he draw from it.

F) A quick method for obtaining partition factor of congeners in spirits Ana Marti´n Æ Francisco Carrillo Æ Luis M. Trillo Æ Antonio Rosello
Very bad data. Mostly not experimental data. Sad, because there are a few interesting esters we don't have elsewhere.

G) Vapor-Liquid Equilibria Measurements of Bitter Orange Aroma
Compounds Highly Diluted in Boiling Hydro-Alcoholic Solutions at
101.3 kPa

Special congeners, not really important for us. But here we have examples of terpenes and ketones. And it loos like good data quality.

H) Distillation principles and processes from S.Young page 308
I don't know. I haven't yet looked at it closely enough. Very old data (1921 or earlier). Probably not usable. But isoamyl acetate would be a nice addition to the list.
Hügelwilli
Swill Maker
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Hügelwilli »

And:
I) Vapor−Liquid Equilibrium of Ethyl Lactate Highly Diluted in
Ethanol−Water Mixtures at 101.3 kPa. Experimental Measurements
and Thermodynamic Modeling Using Semiempirical Models


J) Review and thermodynamic modeling with NRTL model of vapor–liquid equilibria (VLE) of aroma compounds highly diluted in ethanol–water mixtures at 101.3 kPa

Have to look at it.


Most missing:

- Ethyl carbamate
- Sulfur compounds like DMS
- butyric ethyl ester
- isoamyl acetate
- lactic acid
matjans
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:33 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by matjans »

Follow mode on :) Very interesting.
Stibnut
Novice
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Stibnut »

Hügelwilli wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:20 am The simulator will be online like our other calculators here, named probably "Begleitstoffesimulator".
And there will be a second one, more practial, where you can calculate the influence of cutting points on the final spirit. Also cutting points at stripping runs.


Our sources are:

A) From pot stills to continuous stills: flavor modification by distillation" from Robert Piggot. Published in The Alcohol Textbook, Chapter 17.
Probably good data except acetaldehyde and acrolein. The volatility of acetaldehyde is not so extreme high according to other sources.

B) From Whisky Technology, Production and Marketing, original from Panek und Boucher, probably "Continuous distillation", published also in The Science and Technology of Whiskies (J. R. Piggott, R. Sharp and R. E. B. Duncan, eds), pp. **. Longman Scientific and Technical.
Uncertain quality. Our only data from phenol unfortunately.

C) "chemical aspects of distilling wines into brandy" from J.F. Guymon, 1973, published In Chemistry of Winemaking; Webb, A.; Advances in Chemistry; American Chemical Society: Washington, DC, 1974.
original from: Figures 5 and 6, prepared by Unger (36) from vapor-liquid equilibrium data obtained by Williams (37).

Very good data.

D) from Computer simulation applied to studying continuous spirit distillation and product quality control, Fabio R.M. Batista, Antonio J.A. Meirelles, Food Control 22 (2011) 1592-1603
Very bad data. But most congeners we have in other publications. Except acetone.

E) VAPOR-LIQUID EQUILIBRIA OF ORGANIC HOMOLOGUES IN ETHANOL-WATER SOLUTIONS ®. C. WILLIAMS
Very good data and many and very important congeners. This is the most important source we have. The raw data is better than the curves he draw from it.

F) A quick method for obtaining partition factor of congeners in spirits Ana Marti´n Æ Francisco Carrillo Æ Luis M. Trillo Æ Antonio Rosello
Very bad data. Mostly not experimental data. Sad, because there are a few interesting esters we don't have elsewhere.

G) Vapor-Liquid Equilibria Measurements of Bitter Orange Aroma
Compounds Highly Diluted in Boiling Hydro-Alcoholic Solutions at
101.3 kPa

Special congeners, not really important for us. But here we have examples of terpenes and ketones. And it loos like good data quality.

H) Distillation principles and processes from S.Young page 308
I don't know. I haven't yet looked at it closely enough. Very old data (1921 or earlier). Probably not usable. But isoamyl acetate would be a nice addition to the list.
Thank you so much for those paper titles - I'll see what I can track down and learn. And that calculator page is extremely useful even without the congener simulator! Let us know when you put the congener program online, I'd love to mess around with it when it goes up.
Hügelwilli
Swill Maker
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Hügelwilli »

If you ever will do another distillation with GC measuring, perhaps concentrate on things where information is rare?
The behavior of methanol and isobutanol is well known, your experiment showed us only, what we know already.
For example data of volatile acids is rare, I know only one good source even for acetic acid, what is the most important one. And you could also measure the esterification rate by the way (measuring ethyl acetate in the product).
And more versatile would be volatility diagrams (x-axis abv from 0 to 100, y-axis volatility) or data.
30xs
Swill Maker
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:05 pm
Location: WV

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by 30xs »

So from what I take from that is that pulling a pint/quart slow drip on the front of the stripping g run would help pull more of the nasties out of the spirit run? Would that widen the hearts cut or just lower the methanol amount in the spirit run? I understand there is not enough methanol to be concerned with, but would reducing it help clean the hearts and make them larger?

I had been doing a slow (hour) pint on the strip and tossing it. I would then open it up an collect full speed for my strips. The run I’m currently doing I only pulled fores and stripped. Since there was some product that is being ran again in the mix I won’t be able to say with certainty if the was a noticeable difference. I was just curious as to whether my original protocol was the better option (other than adding an hour to each strip).
Stibnut
Novice
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Stibnut »

Hügelwilli wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:47 am If you ever will do another distillation with GC measuring, perhaps concentrate on things where information is rare?
The behavior of methanol and isobutanol is well known, your experiment showed us only, what we know already.
For example data of volatile acids is rare, I know only one good source even for acetic acid, what is the most important one. And you could also measure the esterification rate by the way (measuring ethyl acetate in the product).
And more versatile would be volatility diagrams (x-axis abv from 0 to 100, y-axis volatility) or data.
The first GC experiment was for my own education - I hadn't seen the research where this was already measured until after I did it, other than a few threads here about how methanol behaves. I feel that I learn best when I do an experiment of my own to see it with my own eyes, even if the experiment just rehashes things that are already known. In retrospect, of course you are right: it would have been better to try something where the behavior is less well established.

I don't know when I will get a chance to try this again - things are getting pretty busy at work now and there are a bunch of audits coming up, so I might not have as much time and/or freedom to do my own stuff. I'm sure I'll get a chance eventually though. When I do, I'll definitely follow your suggestion and look at acetic acid along with some acetate and/or lactate esters.

In an earlier test a couple of months ago, while trying to identify some unknown GC peaks, I made ethyl lactate, isobutyl acetate, and isoamyl acetate. I know I still have the ethyl lactate sample and might still have the isobutyl and isoamyl acetates in a drawer somewhere. You still need ethyl lactate and isoamyl acetate data, right? If so, those will be the ones I'll try next along with acetic acid.
Hügelwilli
Swill Maker
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 am

Re: Methanol and isobutanol measured by GC in pot still experiment

Post by Hügelwilli »

Before a new experiment happens please contact me and tell me exactly what yo will do.

I just look at your xlsx. I hope I can compare your data with our data. It will need a few days.

Questions:
- You measured the alcohol strength by density, right? "SG" in your xlsx really means SG or does it mean density (kg/L)?
- "EtOH g/L" is measured with GC or calculated from the SG?
- "Cum." means cumulated?
- You have no measurement data of the remaining liquid after distillation?
- You write: "Approx. wash makeup". How far away from your numbers can it be?
Post Reply