Booner's Casual All Corn

[bitter]

Rye is nice at 5 to 10 percent

[RockinRockies]

It appears my buddy is very fond of this recipe. We're going to mash in enough today to make a 5 gallon carboy at 100 proof. I've been procrastinating on cleaning the drums and grinding the corn. It's a lot of work

[PLAYMP]

I'm wondering what the shortest rest anybody has attempted with this recipe after adding the SebAmyl GL, or does anyone have a ballpark idea of how long it takes to do it's thing? I realize you may not ever know until you see whether your mash fermented out dry or not.

Woodshed mentioned he does an overnight rest but I typically use a plate chiller to bring things down to pitch temps quick as possible. I have some powdered glucoamylase that I often add prior to pitching yeast as the instructions indicate it can work slowly at lower temps, but it's not clear from the SebAmyl documentation whether it would just go dormant below the temp range specified. My AG mashes usually ferment at 1.000 and not lower like I sometimes I see so I don't even know if the powdered gluco is working.

Also, given this is now a 9 year old recipe, especially craft and home distillation has largely boomed over that time, is anybody aware of any advances in enzymes that would perhaps improve or simplify this recipe? Don't get me wrong it's dead simple as is but if enzymes have since been developed to work at overlapping ph ranges for example, that's worth noting.

[PLAYMP]

I'm wondering what the shortest rest anybody has attempted with this recipe after adding the SebAmyl GL, or does anyone have a ballpark idea of how long it takes to do it's thing?

I read all 21 pages of this thread and it took me posting this to figure out an answer. In this pintoshine video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo) he adds the Sebamyl and does a 1 hour rest, so that's not a bad place for me to start.

[still_stirrin]

... I have some powdered glucoamylase … is anybody aware of any advances in enzymes that would perhaps improve or simplify this recipe?

Liquid enzymes do work better than powdered enzymes. Getcha’ some.

The high temperature enzyme works quick to break up the sticky corn porridge, while a liquid gluco-amylase is very good at starch conversion. But, you need to tend to the temperatures as well as the mash pH. Because of corn’s high gel temperature, I do 2 mashes; 1) corn with the high temperature step before adding to 2) the barley malt, wheat, oats, and/or rye malt saccarification at 148-150*F.

Do you ferment “on-the-grain”? If so, adding gluco-amylase to the mash in the fermenter will continue to work reducing starches, although much slower.

You mentioned a plate chiller, which would be used after mashing and conversion. So, I’m assuming you lauter your mash before runoff to the fermenter (through the plate chiller).

Also, you asked about how long to hold temperature of the mash tun. Answer: until the iodine test confirms you’re fully converted.

Got it?
ss

[PLAYMP]

You mentioned a plate chiller, which would be used after mashing and conversion. So, I’m assuming you lauter your mash before runoff to the fermenter (through the plate chiller).

You’d be right. I have a large brew in a bag setup with a 40 gallon pot. I don’t have the set up to ferment on grain so I run the wort through the plate chiller and into the fermenter in the basement.

Also, you asked about how long to hold temperature of the mash tun. Answer: until the iodine test confirms you’re fully converted.

That’s sensible and I do test my mashes with iodine where I’m getting my enzymes from malt, but I was getting hung up on if I could rely on the iodine test for glucoamylase, given that the alpha amylase should have already converted the starch to dextrins (I.e no starch, why would I not pass a starch test?). But it looks like dextrins will still react with iodine, and things should be nice and clear after the gluco does its job. It also implies that if my malt mashes are passing the iodine test I could also do without the powdered glucoamylase too. Thanks for walking me through that.

[Dancing4dan]

Do you ferment “on-the-grain”? If so, adding gluco-amylase to the mash in the fermenter will continue to work reducing starches, although much slower.
ss

Agreed. If you have a Brew in the bag setup you can ferment on grain. Let the enzymes do their work. They continue to be active during ferment.

Ferment on grain, wait for enzymes to work and pull the grain/bag after the ferment has stopped.

Be patient with your ferment.

[PLAYMP]

Thanks for the reply. It’s not so much the BIAB factor that holds me from fermenting on grain, more that where I have access to 240v is my unheated garage where it’s just above freezing half the year and it doesn’t lend itself well to being discrete for a week or two at a time, unfortunately.

[squigglefunk]

the Sebamyl GL is a blend of enzymes that is specifically formulated to improve the efficiency of brewing and distilling processes. The enzyme contains a combination of alpha-amylase, beta-amylase, and protease enzymes, which work together to break down the complex carbohydrates and proteins in the mash.

When added to the mash, the alpha-amylase enzyme begins to break down the long chain carbohydrates, such as starch, into shorter chain carbohydrates, such as maltose and dextrins. Beta-amylase enzyme then further breaks down these shorter chain carbohydrates into simpler sugars such as glucose, which are more easily fermentable by yeast.

The protease enzyme in Sebamyl GL liquid enzyme helps to break down proteins in the corn mash, which can improve the clarity and flavor of the final product

[FL Brewer]

I looked at the Sebamyl datasheet on Enzymash's website (the manufacturer) and it says:

SEBamyl-GL is an enzyme produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of
Aspergillus niger. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher, non-synthetic and can be used to produce
certified-organic beverages. SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase
enzyme. It acts to hydrolyze the alpha-D-1,4-glycosidic bonds on the non-reducing end of liquefied starch. In
addition, SEBamy-GL has side alpha-D-1,6 glycosidic activity to increase hydrolysis of starch and amylopectin
branch points. The prolonged action of SEBamyl-GL produces large amounts of glucose.

That seems to say it's a single enzyme, an alpha amylase. Is there another description (or maybe another formulation) from a reseller?

[FL Brewer]

Links to datasheets for Sebamyl GL and Sebstar HTL enzymes.

https://enzymash.biz/download/sebamylgl.pdf

https://enzymash.biz/download/sebstarhtl.pdf

[PLAYMP]

SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase
enzyme.

I might be reading this wrong or the grammar is throwing me off but doesn’t this imply that it acts as both alpha and glucoamylase?

The more I wrap my head around it I think I’ve always been conflating these enzymes with powdered alpha and gluco amylase. Where you add the alpha amylase at mash in and the gluco at slightly cooler temps, almost as an afterthought to hopefully ferment out another gravity point or so.

But it’s more nuanced than that. It’s the sebstar that’s functional and lets you actually work with your mash and the sebamyl that’s really the workhorse when it comes to conversion.

[FL Brewer]

My understanding is that both Sebstar HTL and Sebamyl GL are each single enzymes that do a specific job. The description of the Sebamyl GL (exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase) is just an acknowledgement that there are different ways to describe that particular enzyme, not that it is a mix of several enzymes. The Sebstar HTL breaks the starch molecules in cooked grain into long chain sugars (lower molecular weight dextrins) that are not fermentable (or mostly not fermentable) and don't taste sweet. The Sebamyl GL breaks these long chain sugars into the short chain sugars (glucose) that are very fermentable and taste sweet. I don't see anything in the material datasheets that indicate either of these enzymes do anything to break down proteins, but can't say for sure that they don't.

I have been using the combination of Sebstar HTL and Sebamyl GL for all my mashing except when I'm doing malted grain whiskeys, and they work very well. The immediate thinning when adding the high temp Sebstar HTL does make the mash significantly easier to work with, but it's only half the job of converting the starch to fermentable sugars, the Sebamyl GL takes care of the other half. I have done AG corn and oats whiskies as well as bourbons with these enzymes and the conversion was excellent, giving me very good yields.

[FL Brewer]

Another thing to remember is that alpha-amylase, glucoamylase, etc. are not specific enzymes, but families of similar enzymes, which is why different sellers have different temp or pH range recommendation for their products. The powdered enzymes are not the same chemical as the high temp liquid enzymes, just similar.

[PLAYMP]

So I just finished an all corn run tonight a la Booners. I took 65lbs of feed supply cracked corn and ran it through my roller mill, needed to set it a bit more coarse than works for malt but thought it would help with my yield.

Added corn to 32 gallons of water around 97 Celsius and added the HTL after that. Stirred every once in a while and after 2 hours I was at 85 degrees. I used my plate chiller to cool down to 60 degrees and pitched the Sebamyl. Iodine tested the whole way and after about 3 hours it was clear so I was happy…

…until I took a gravity reading…1.04. Pretty disappointed honestly and figure it was either just the corn itself or maybe that I didn’t gelatinize long enough? Was letting it sit for 2 hours around 90 degrees enough or do I need to let this go overnight? Can I still pass an iodine test and have a pile of ungelatinized starch trapped in the kernel? I have another bag of cracked corn so I’ll try letting it gelatinize longer next time. After that I’ll just switch to cornmeal and see if that helps me any.

[PLAYMP]

So I took another kick at the can last night and this morning. Adjustments from above was running the cracked corn through the roller mill twice, the second time at the finest setting I could adjust to. I also let it sit overnight after adding the corn and HTL - about 7 hours before I added the sebamyl gl. Iodine test again passed with flying colors but I still only made it up to 1.05. I don't hate 1.05 but man corn has been tough on me...

After this ferments and gets stripped I'll have enough for an all-corn spirit run but in the future I'm just going all cornmeal, maybe even flour and hope I can get a couple more points out of it.

[Bee]

So I took another kick at the can last night and this morning. Adjustments from above was running the cracked corn through the roller mill twice, the second time at the finest setting I could adjust to. I also let it sit overnight after adding the corn and HTL - about 7 hours before I added the sebamyl gl. Iodine test again passed with flying colors but I still only made it up to 1.05. I don't hate 1.05 but man corn has been tough on me...

After this ferments and gets stripped I'll have enough for an all-corn spirit run but in the future I'm just going all cornmeal, maybe even flour and hope I can get a couple more points out of it.

That's pretty typical and it seems to yield more than the OG would indicate.

[Bradster68]

So I took another kick at the can last night and this morning. Adjustments from above was running the cracked corn through the roller mill twice, the second time at the finest setting I could adjust to. I also let it sit overnight after adding the corn and HTL - about 7 hours before I added the sebamyl gl. Iodine test again passed with flying colors but I still only made it up to 1.05. I don't hate 1.05 but man corn has been tough on me...

After this ferments and gets stripped I'll have enough for an all-corn spirit run but in the future I'm just going all cornmeal, maybe even flour and hope I can get a couple more points out of it.

I took my roller mill apart and modified the adjustment holes with a carbide bit. I can now adjust it so it grabs a single peice of paper. I'm getting a much finer crush. Lots of flour twice through. Made a bif difference.

[Whitecap72]

I was curious what you guys are putting in your thumper when running this recipe. I've ran this before without a thumper and now have added one. I've heard the same mash in the thumper?

[AppleWood50]

Looking to give this recipe a try and was wondering if anyone has used powdered enzymes instead of the liquid SEBStar ones?

I’m specifically thinking of Still Spirits Distillers Enzyme Alpha-amylase and Still Spirits Distillers Enzyme Glucoamylase

I simply can’t get SSBStar or liquid enzymes over here.

[Sporacle]

They'll work fine as long as they are in date, just make sure the AA that you order is the specific high temp one.

[AppleWood50]

They'll work fine as long as they are in date, just make sure the AA that you order is the specific high temp one.

Thanks so it doesn’t matter whether the AA is in powder or liquid form?

The AA I’m looking at says Temperature Tolerance: 65-80°C (149-176°F)

[Sporacle]

Shouldn't matter. Just make sure you have good gelatinisation and hit your enzyme temps

[AppleWood50]

Attempted this recipe today and it’s unfortunately became a complete failure when done via BIAB for me.

All gone well until it came to removing the BIAB from the boiler. The corn because so fine blocked my bag good style!

I’m literally stuck with 25l of water and corn in the bag and it won’t drain. Probably going to have to ditch the whole batch as I’ve now burst the BIAB bag trying to squeeze the liquid out.

Everyone that has attempted this recipe can you confirm, what method did you use for mashing the corn? Because BIAB totally didn’t work for me!

I still have lots of corn left so would really appreciate some advice on how it’s best to mash the corn. For me all corn in the BIAB just didn’t work!

[Bradster68]

Personally I don't use the bag. I bring my ground corn to a boil,and simmer for 2 hours. I get great results. HTL is a must,sacrificial at beginning and more when back down to temp.
I wouldn't throw it away

[Deplorable]

Attempted this recipe today and it’s unfortunately became a complete failure when done via BIAB for me.

All gone well until it came to removing the BIAB from the boiler. The corn because so fine blocked my bag good style!

I’m literally stuck with 25l of water and corn in the bag and it won’t drain. Probably going to have to ditch the whole batch as I’ve now burst the BIAB bag trying to squeeze the liquid out.

Everyone that has attempted this recipe can you confirm, what method did you use for mashing the corn? Because BIAB totally didn’t work for me!

I still have lots of corn left so would really appreciate some advice on how it’s best to mash the corn. For me all corn in the BIAB just didn’t work!

When I made 6 gallons of all corn for aging, I used SCD's Easy Large Batch mashing technique and fermented on grain. It's easier to deal with the spent grain after all the sugar has been converted to alcohol. 2 pounds per gallon of milled dent corn. I added boiling water to the corn in a well insulated HDPE barrel while stirring, covered it and let it gel for about an hour while the next boiler full of water came to a boil. just before adding the next round of corn and water, I added a dose of Alpha amylase to thin it out for stirring. After adding the 2nd batch of corn to gel, I let it rest for another 1 hour, added a 2nd dose of HTAA, stirred it, and let it rest until it hit 140, then added my Gluco amylase.

[Twisted Brick]

Attempted this recipe today and it’s unfortunately became a complete failure when done via BIAB for me.

Everyone that has attempted this recipe can you confirm, what method did you use for mashing the corn? Because BIAB totally didn’t work for me!

Many feel that BIAB is a better tool for beer and worts made with barley malt because of its husk for filtering. Corn retains a large amount of water (and its converted sugars) which makes it unwieldy and heavy. Others have complained that BIAB corn mashes suffer from pockets that can create challenges to stirring. Deplorable's advice about the ease of dealing with corn after fermentation is spot on.

Here's another member who had a similar experience to yours.

With experience corn becomes manageable, and then easy. Keep at it!

[Setsumi]

+1 on fermenting on the grain. Do not dump it ferment it.

[AppleWood50]

Well guys I really appreciated the advice that you all gave me above and I taken it all into consideration and had another go at this recipe and still didn’t really get the efficiency that I desired. I mean my second go turned out okay but still far from great. My process was as follows.

30lbs finely ground corn, 50 litres water.

Using still spirits powdered alpha amylase and powdered glucoamylase instead of the original liquid enzymes recommended by booners recipe. I just can’t get the liquid enzymes here!

Added the 50 litres of water at 100 degrees Celsius to mash tun along with the 30 lbs of corn. Stirred it all up and left to gelatinise. About 2.5 hours later the temp finally dropped down to 170f And I added alpha amylase stirred it all up really well and left for 2 hours to do it’s thing. After two hours I opened the mash tun and stirred it all up really well. I could see the alpha amylase had done its thing as the gloopy corn had become really easy to stir and liquid. I left the lid off the mash tun and kept stirring every 5-10 minutes until the temperature dropped to 140f And then I added the glucoamylase. My setup holds heat very well hence having to stir for a while to lower the temperature. After adding the glucoamylase and stirring I put the lid back on and left overnight as recommended by booners recipe.

The day after I manually poured the liquid and corn from the mash tun through my grainfather stainless steel basket. This made separating the grain super easy! As all the starch had been converted by the enzymes the mesh basket did not block.

As I filtered all the grain through the stainless steel mesh basket I used my fists to compress the corn and force all the liquid out. After forcing all the liquid out of the corn I had 40 litres at 1.040 SG.

I then put all the grain in the basket again and sparged with 15 litres of boiling water to wash all the sugars still trapped in the corn out.

This then gave me a total of 55 litres of wash at 1.030.

I figured this was okay but far from great. What would this be? Maybe 45-50% efficiency? So pretty low!!

I confess I added 6kg of dextrose to bring the SG to 1.063. For the time, effort and labour involved It just didn’t feel worth fermenting 55 litres at 1.030.

Now that I have added dextrose to the wash, what should I expect? Will my results not be as good as if I had not added the dextrose??

I mean the wash is super milky and has a strong odour of corn! And the dextrose shouldn’t impart any flavor to the wash like sugar would?

[bilgriss]

Adding dextrose and water will boost the alcohol in your ferment, but it will likewise dilute the flavor a bit.

Getting the extra efficiency from the corn mash is about maximizing the amount of gelatinization of the corn and making it all available to the liquid and enzymes in the mash. Many folks cook the corn for an extended period. Booners is a compromise by starting with boiling water and allowing the corn to gel as it steeps. Grinding corn finer increases surface area and the amount of corn exposed to the hot water. You can try increasing the amount of water a little. One benefit of the high temp liquid enzyme is it can be added at a pretty high temperature, keeping the corn more liquid while the gelatinization is taking place. That all nudges the process towards a little more efficiency.

I think a lot of folks also leave the corn on the liquid and ferment on the grain. Enzymes continue to work at lower temperatures, just more slowly, and keep increasing the efficiency while the yeast work. Good for you sparging corn before the ferment, that can be hard to pull off, but the hot sparge water stops any enzymes from further activity.

With tried and true recipes, the results have usually been well verified, and if you follow the process exactly, you can expect to get what the recipe indicates. I'd say overall your deviations from the process are the source of discrepancy in specific gravity.

Good luck!