Economics of 'going pro'.

[The Baker]

Made my day, Setsumi.

Geoff

[Single Malt Yinzer]

It could be viable with a hobby outfit if you didn't give up your day job and didn't expect any sales to support all the overhead associated with above board production / capital expenditures.

Minimum size kettle to generate enough revenue to carry fixed costs associated with doing an above board business: 380L.

Minimum size kettle to generate enough revenue to actually be profitable running an above board business: 1000L.

Is this conjecture/anecdotal? Because it’s hard to believe without hard numbers. Also “I know a guy” or “this is what happened to me” doesn’t count as proof that this statement is true.

Larry knows what he's talking about as he's on the commercial side of things. The issue is that you don't understand that side of things. And instead of asking why he said that you challenge what he is saying. If you're actually thinking of going pro he's one of your best resources to do that. He's really smart about the business and a good person to run ideas past.

Or are you just another troll?

Nah.
Been on these forums for maybe twenty years longer than you.

Geoff

I appreciate all the posts you put out there here and elsewhere. I learned a ton from you.

[NorthWoodsAb]

Check out our instagram at @bruinwooddistillery and our website at bruinwood.com

Great looking site, next time I'm down your way will arrange a visit.

[glenlyon]

next time I'm down your way will arrange a visit.

Please do! We have a lot of Alberta travelers stop by. We also get quite a few home distillers throughout the year.

[BlueSasquatch]

I think about this weekly, and have come to the conclusion that what would make me happier than a pig in shit, is to work at a distillery, not own the distillery. Majority of your time is not spent actually distilling or mashing, but running the business, miles of paperwork, phone calls, emails, being a salesman, dealing with the government. Atleast in the USA, seems like opening a distillery is a quick way to distance yourself from actual distilling, opposed to keeping it as a hobby.

[MereCashmere]

It could be viable with a hobby outfit if you didn't give up your day job and didn't expect any sales to support all the overhead associated with above board production / capital expenditures.

Minimum size kettle to generate enough revenue to carry fixed costs associated with doing an above board business: 380L.

Minimum size kettle to generate enough revenue to actually be profitable running an above board business: 1000L.

Is this conjecture/anecdotal? Because it’s hard to believe without hard numbers. Also “I know a guy” or “this is what happened to me” doesn’t count as proof that this statement is true.

Larry knows what he's talking about as he's on the commercial side of things. The issue is that you don't understand that side of things. And instead of asking why he said that you challenge what he is saying. If you're actually thinking of going pro he's one of your best resources to do that. He's really smart about the business and a good person to run ideas past.

Or are you just another troll?

Nah.
Been on these forums for maybe twenty years longer than you.

Geoff

I appreciate all the posts you put out there here and elsewhere. I learned a ton from you.

You’re just being a dick now; so I’m just supposed to blindly accept one persons anecdote without asking for proof? The circle jerk is real.

If we’re just going to believe people, then what about the post that details that a distillery owners smallest still is his most profitable? Why shouldn’t I believe him? He actually owns a distillery, not a still parts website.

You guys gotta stop telling newcomers to this forum one thing, then blast them when they do that thing. This forum is about the spirit of research and self sufficiency, then when I ask for more proof so I can do my own research you tell me to just believe one guy I don’t even know? That’s bullshit and you know it.

Just because the majority believes it doesn’t mean it’s true. Just look at the Boka design history. It was the bees knees till it wasn’t. We wouldn’t have What we have now without people wanting to look deeper than what they’re hearing on the surface.

In short, pull your head out of his crotch and let people ask questions.

[Setsumi]

It could be viable with a hobby outfit if you didn't give up your day job and didn't expect any sales to support all the overhead associated with above board production / capital expenditures.

Minimum size kettle to generate enough revenue to carry fixed costs associated with doing an above board business: 380L.

Minimum size kettle to generate enough revenue to actually be profitable running an above board business: 1000L.

Is this conjecture/anecdotal? Because it’s hard to believe without hard numbers. Also “I know a guy” or “this is what happened to me” doesn’t count as proof that this statement is true.

Larry knows what he's talking about as he's on the commercial side of things. The issue is that you don't understand that side of things. And instead of asking why he said that you challenge what he is saying. If you're actually thinking of going pro he's one of your best resources to do that. He's really smart about the business and a good person to run ideas past.

Or are you just another troll?

Nah.
Been on these forums for maybe twenty years longer than you.

Geoff

I appreciate all the posts you put out there here and elsewhere. I learned a ton from you.

You’re just being a dick now; so I’m just supposed to blindly accept one persons anecdote without asking for proof? The circle jerk is real.

If we’re just going to believe people, then what about the post that details that a distillery owners smallest still is his most profitable? Why shouldn’t I believe him? He actually owns a distillery, not a still parts website.

You guys gotta stop telling newcomers to this forum one thing, then blast them when they do that thing. This forum is about the spirit of research and self sufficiency, then when I ask for more proof so I can do my own research you tell me to just believe one guy I don’t even know? That’s bullshit and you know it.

Just because the majority believes it doesn’t mean it’s true. Just look at the Boka design history. It was the bees knees till it wasn’t. We wouldn’t have What we have now without people wanting to look deeper than what they’re hearing on the surface.

In short, pull your head out of his crotch and let people ask questions.

What about... read a bit around here and else where and realize that there are people that realy make a contribution to the hobby and craft. AND those people actually are prepared to answer your questions... yes on their terms and from their perspective and involvement, regardless your needs or personality. Some are just hobbiest some are in manufacturing and developing craft distilleries.. do you question Android, microsoft, Boeing? Your remark on website with parts only shows your ignorance.

Your remark on "head in his crotch" is a blatant insult to all on this site, just my opinion.

[MereCashmere]

Is this conjecture/anecdotal? Because it’s hard to believe without hard numbers. Also “I know a guy” or “this is what happened to me” doesn’t count as proof that this statement is true.

Larry knows what he's talking about as he's on the commercial side of things. The issue is that you don't understand that side of things. And instead of asking why he said that you challenge what he is saying. If you're actually thinking of going pro he's one of your best resources to do that. He's really smart about the business and a good person to run ideas past.

Or are you just another troll?

Nah.
Been on these forums for maybe twenty years longer than you.

Geoff

I appreciate all the posts you put out there here and elsewhere. I learned a ton from you.

You’re just being a dick now; so I’m just supposed to blindly accept one persons anecdote without asking for proof? The circle jerk is real.

If we’re just going to believe people, then what about the post that details that a distillery owners smallest still is his most profitable? Why shouldn’t I believe him? He actually owns a distillery, not a still parts website.

You guys gotta stop telling newcomers to this forum one thing, then blast them when they do that thing. This forum is about the spirit of research and self sufficiency, then when I ask for more proof so I can do my own research you tell me to just believe one guy I don’t even know? That’s bullshit and you know it.

Just because the majority believes it doesn’t mean it’s true. Just look at the Boka design history. It was the bees knees till it wasn’t. We wouldn’t have What we have now without people wanting to look deeper than what they’re hearing on the surface.

In short, pull your head out of his crotch and let people ask questions.

What about... read a bit around here and else where and realize that there are people that realy make a contribution to the hobby and craft. AND those people actually are prepared to answer your questions... yes on their terms and from their perspective and involvement, regardless your needs or personality. Some are just hobbiest some are in manufacturing and developing craft distilleries.. do you question Android, microsoft, Boeing? Your remark on website with parts only shows your ignorance.

Your remark on "head in his crotch" is a blatant insult to all on this site, just my opinion.

How about you answer the question Setsumi. Me asking for proof doesn’t negate the contributions of LW to the site. You truly think the vets here are infallible? That is incredibly foolish

[jonnys_spirit]

Bedside manner is important too? Demands and insults rarely lead to any reasonable outcome...

No-one here get's paid for contributing - 100% volunteer. Buyer beware and do your research until you're satisfied.

Re: Economics of 'going pro':
Q: How to make a million $ in the likker industry?
A: Start with 10 million and start a distillery?

*** If you love the hobby seriously consider not turning it into a job..

My $.02 whether it was requested or not.

Cheers and best luck!
-jonny

[LWTCS]

@MereCashmere, crunch your own numbers then.
Not everyone is going to have the same fixed costs. Not everyone will have the same kind of market space. And not everyone will have the same loss factor.

Here is a table that illustrates what a 380L, 1000L, 1500L, 2000L, 3000L,and 4000L kettle charge will yield with a 30% loss factor. Bottles are filled with an ABV of 40%.

Once (ALL) your fixed costs are factored in, you'll need to determine if the system's parameters is capable of generating an adequate net profit,,,one assumes.
Will your market tolerate a $50 bottle of whiskey? Or can you even get away with an $80 sale per bottle? Do you have enough bank to sit on a proper bourbon for 4 years? Or will you have to resort to sale after only 2?
Or did you expect everyone here to factor those types of variables for you?

This first consultation is free. Anything after is $130 per hour.

Stop with the insults or you'll find yourself heavily moderated.

[The Baker]

Saw merecashmere's name at the top.

Didn't read it.

Geoff

[StillerBoy]

You truly think the vets here are infallible? That is incredibly foolish

He's just been here a few months, and yet pretty well knows it all.. all his thread are the same, trying to teach us "greenhorns" a thing or two..

And here's where it comes from..

Dads a shiner, hopin to learn more here, and maybe teach some greenhorns a thing or two.

Mars

[Single Malt Yinzer]

If we’re just going to believe people, then what about the post that details that a distillery owners smallest still is his most profitable? Why shouldn’t I believe him? He actually owns a distillery, not a still parts website.

Again, you're too busy to ask why it's his most profitable.

I’m just supposed to blindly accept one persons anecdote without asking for proof?

This forum is about the spirit of research and self sufficiency, then when I ask for more proof so I can do my own research you tell me to just believe one guy I don’t even know? That’s bullshit and you know it.

You're not asking for proof. You're just telling people they are wrong. There's a difference. You should try asking people why they say what they say and not tell them they are wrong. You don't know if they are wrong, you're only putting forth supposition.

I understand you may have some issues with communicating. Maybe you should read your posts more carefully before submitting them to ensure what you write is what you actually mean. This software can help: https://www.grammarly.com/tone

[LWTCS]

Most profitable means best margin.

Maybe even a single offering can carry the nut?
But most profitable dont mean shit if you're not able to net a profit based on total production volumes.

And by profit I mean make a real living while also contributing to your retirement.

[Twisted Brick]

Saw merecashmere's name at the top.

Didn't read it.

Geoff

Same here. I think it's going around.

[MereCashmere]

If we’re just going to believe people, then what about the post that details that a distillery owners smallest still is his most profitable? Why shouldn’t I believe him? He actually owns a distillery, not a still parts website.

Again, you're too busy to ask why it's his most profitable.

I’m just supposed to blindly accept one persons anecdote without asking for proof?

This forum is about the spirit of research and self sufficiency, then when I ask for more proof so I can do my own research you tell me to just believe one guy I don’t even know? That’s bullshit and you know it.

You're not asking for proof. You're just telling people they are wrong. There's a difference. You should try asking people why they say what they say and not tell them they are wrong. You don't know if they are wrong, you're only putting forth supposition.

I understand you may have some issues with communicating. Maybe you should read your posts more carefully before submitting them to ensure what you write is what you actually mean. This software can help: https://www.grammarly.com/tone

My very first post on this thread is asking for proof

But you’re too high and mighty to admit you’re wrong, just like the rest of the cult here

[MereCashmere]

Saw merecashmere's name at the top.

Didn't read it.

Geoff

Same here. I think it's going around.

Nice, got the whole cult round table hurling insults clogging up a thread! The Trolls of the Round Table appeared, I must be doing something right.

Of course it’s completely fine when you guys hurl insults here, but no one else can.

To think all this started because I wanted proof of an erroneous claim from someone who doesn’t even own or operate a distillery…

[MereCashmere]

You truly think the vets here are infallible? That is incredibly foolish

He's just been here a few months, and yet pretty well knows it all.. all his thread are the same, trying to teach us "greenhorns" a thing or two..

And here's where it comes from..

Dads a shiner, hopin to learn more here, and maybe teach some greenhorns a thing or two.

Mars

Mars your literal MO is going thread to thread telling people “you don’t understand X and I Do because”

Perhaps look in the mirror before you hurl insults at people?

Not to mention you’ve thrown plenty of fake claims around without proof or any backup, just talking out your arse, and when you are called out on it you shut up real quick.

[MereCashmere]

Saw merecashmere's name at the top.

Didn't read it.

Geoff

Way to clog up a thread with insults instead of contributing. Father of Trolls strikes again.

[StillerBoy]

Dads a shiner, hopin to learn more here, and maybe teach some greenhorns a thing or two.

Must of touched a raw point with the about statement you made..

Good luck with teaching this "greenhorn" a thing or two..

Mars

[shadylane]

Way to clog up a thread with insults instead of contributing.

What are your thoughts on going Pro

[SassyFrass]

Thanks Shady for trying to head this back onto the original direction...lol

Me and SWMBO talked long and hard about going pro/legit/legal or whatever you want to call it, about 10 years ago. We decided against it. We figured if we did that, it would stop being an enjoyable hobby and become just another job. Besides, me and her are both cheap, and the investment money was just more than we were willing to risk.

A family friend did go legit and opened a craft distillery and seems to be doing ok. But he isn't selling "moonshine", he's selling barrel aged brown whisky.

There are folks on HD.net from all over the world, from every background, and in many different professions, including distillation pros. Might be worth it to listen to them. But thats up to the individual reader.

Anyway, if you decide going pro is for you, then I wish you luck. But I'll stick to just making a little bit here and there for me and mine.
Just my thoughts,
SF

[JAMAWG]

What about partnerships with distilleries? I don't want to own, or work full time at one. But selling a recipe, or working with them during harvest season? I am sure the economics are not there for it to be paying my rent. But there is still a product I want, its not out there. So I am working towards it.
Incase anyone wants to know. A rainer cherry liqueur on par with a Grand Marnier. I got years of work ahead of me if I go pro with it or not.
Are there things like this in the industry? There are so many liqueurs out there, and they use such small amounts in cocktails. They can't possibly be selling at a scale to support them all independently. Probably all owned by InBev and made in the same factory now days.

[LWTCS]

What about partnerships with distilleries? I don't want to own, or work full time at one. But selling a recipe, or working with them during harvest season? I am sure the economics are not there for it to be paying my rent. But there is still a product I want, its not out there. So I am working towards it.
Incase anyone wants to know. A rainer cherry liqueur on par with a Grand Marnier. I got years of work ahead of me if I go pro with it or not.
Are there things like this in the industry? There are so many liqueurs out there, and they use such small amounts in cocktails. They can't possibly be selling at a scale to support them all independently. Probably all owned by InBev and made in the same factory now days.

You know,,,its probably possible to create a hybrid version of a co- pack model.
Pay a fee , make and market your own spirit without having to cope with the capital expense of starting up.
Establishing trust would be critical,,,,as well as a contribution toward the liability insurance.

[JAMAWG]

Sugarlands is doing some version of this with the guys from the Master Distiller/Moonshiners Shows. The big guys sell unused time on their equipment for various runs. Thats where costco and trader Joe's gets everything. There has to be some way to do this with the smaller guys. If these startups could sell their extra capacity in some way it would probably help their bottom line.

[GPBrewer]

I like the grill idea.

Another way to keep the lights on that I am interested in is to have your distillery double as an event center.

Make everything attractive with a bright and shiny still front and center in a warehouse/hall with lots of shiplap and rustic looking reclaimed building materials, all on a decent sized piece of property where you grow your own sugar cane, corn, and various fruits for seasonal offerings.
Host and cater wedding receptions, offer liquor packages, give property tours, host distillation classes and clubs.

Yup, this is what "mystic" does near me. They sell gin, white dog, single barrel "bourbon", and some sort of grossly sweet bourbon liquor. But they also have a huge event space where they do live music, art shows, etc etc.

They also distill and bottle whiskey as a white label product, lone rider and creekwater at least, which are partially owned by famous people, aged in big plastic Gaylords on staves... gross.

But every other Saturday they do a bottling day, where volunteers get to bottle whatever they're making, it's a pretty fun way to spend a morning, and you walk home liquored up pretty good, with either a t-shirt or a bottle of your choice, and usually they buy lunch too. Seems like a very economical way to have some brute labor.

[samwell]

At one (maybe cynical) end of the scale one has the option of buying in NGS, watering it down, and selling 'artisanal vodka'.

Came across this video of Por Osos (Bert Kriesher's vodka brand) and you can hear them and see them admit to doing this in their 'how its made' video

Surprised to see people so open about slapping a label on NGS and saying its their work. Anyone understand what the process they claim is used to "polish" these neutral grain spirits? This document on Persedo Spirits website was the only one I could find.

Wild.

[NormandieStill]

Surprised to see people so open about slapping a label on NGS and saying its their work. Anyone understand what the process they claim is used to "polish" these neutral grain spirits? This document on Persedo Spirits website was the only one I could find.

In the video they were claiming heat + ultrasound + nitrogen then CO2. The reactor looked pretty small and looked to be batch processing so given the output figures they were discussing that's got to be a pretty short contact time.

I know Odin was a big fan of ultrasound and claimed that an ultrasound treatment cut 2 weeks off the "aging" time of a freshly distilled gin. It'd be interesting to run the vented output from their reactor (assuming there is one) through a mass spec to see what actually comes out

But given that 50% of the discussion was about being able to drink more with fewer consequences and the other 50% was about making money I'd be prepared to net that most customers couldn't tell the unaltered NGS from the final vodka in a blind test.

[Black Bull]

And if you don't scale, you're limited to very small batch releases (rather than say, a consistent product) which wouldn't necessarily be sustained by a local market.

I wonder if a small craft distillery could benefit more quickly from a Solara aging system. That way you can make several small batch runs and blend them together for a product that is much more consistent overall.

Interestingly enough, I found out we had a local distillery last week when I went looking for some rum.
Curious I bought a bottle of their solara rum, supposedly made from local sugar cane and aged in 50l ex whiskey barrels.

Don't rate it at all, is as bad or worse than my early rum attempts. very heady and has rather an acrid taste.
Supposedly their Gin has one a few awards though

[Saltbush Bill]

Would that be Iridium BB ?
The one I tried didn't seem to bad but I suspect it had been back sweetened.
The one I bought was marketed as 5 year old and as comming from Barrel 62.
It's always interesting to compare commercial to your own.