Moonshine Gods Shining Down?

[kodakjohn]

This is a story of a failed mash that wasn't. As a newbie, I decided that I would try a sweet feed mash for my very first mash build. Since I couldn't find a non-pelletized sweet feed, I decided to build my own with cracked corn, oats and barley, and additional 6lbs of cracked corn, along with about 16 ounces of molasses and 14 lbs sugar. Using distiller's yeast with a yeast supplement and waiting 8 days I was sure my mash did not convert. My hydrometer was at 1 and I thought it meant I had no alcohol. I followed the instructions for a 10 gallon mash build, https://stillntheclear.com/moonshine-10 ... sh-recipe/, but building my own sweet feet was a little suspect. I knew I did something wrong. The mash was sour, but there was still a lot of sweetness. My wife and I decided to run it anyway on my home built 20-gallon copper still with thumber. My temperature guage was at 210 before anything came out of the condenser. I was sure all I was going to get was distilled water. After pitching the first 1/2 jar, my wife tasted the second jar, made a face, and exclaimed we have alcohol. I took a reading and it read 150 proof, 75% ABV. I was getting ready to throw this out and chaulk it up a learning experience. 6 more pint jars later, I was still running at 140-145 proof. The end product was hot and too sweet but tempering down with spring water to 100 proof made it very drinkable and made a dynamite bloody mary.

It appears I had several issues along the way. I do not think I cooked my corn down enough and did not use any amylase in the process. My temperature gauge does not appear to be measuring right and may be off by as much as 35 degrees. That is something I am going to have to check before I run my next batch. My 20-gallon still may be a little ugly, but it worked perfectly. I am looking forward to my next mash build with my wife and exploring my new hobby further. Also, any home distillers in East Tennessee who would like to help a newbie, I would appreciate a shout out.

[still_stirrin]

John,

To improve extraction of fermentables from your grains, I’d suggest a little different mashing process:
1) First, mill your corn to a “cornmeal” texture, much finer than simple “cracked corn”.
2) With an appropriate amount of water, heat the water to a low simmer and then stir in the cornmeal (only).
3) Hold the corn “pudding” at this (simmering) temperature for 45 minutes to an hour, stirring often.
4) After an hour, add cold water and reduce the temperature of the mash (gelatinized cornmeal) to 150-152*F. Again, stirring regularly.
5) Dough-in the crushed oats and malted barley, stirring continuously to break up any “dough balls”. It’ll be a thick mash.
6) Hold the temperature of the mash at 145-150*F for an hour or more, until the iodine check shows you’re fully converted.
7) Stir in the sugar, if you need to add sugar. But, keep in mind that sugar in a mash will reduce the flavor of the product although it will boost the alcohol potential of the ferment. Also, as you’ve pulled more fermentables from the grains, you won’t need as much sugar anyway to get enough alcohol in your fermenter.
8 ) Add the remaining cold water to drop the mash temperature to 90-100*F and stir vigorously to mix some oxygen/air into the mash.
9) Rehydrate your dried yeast in warm (not hot) water for 15-20 minutes and then “pitch” it into the fermenter. Cover and airlock if you can, to keep critters and wild flora out while the yeast goest to work.

Fermentation will be complete in 3 to 5 days, but let your fermenter settle for another week or two. This will allow the yeast to flocculate and settle and the beer will clear enough for you to rack it off into your boiler for stripping.

And for this recipe, I would suggest a double distillation process, ie - strip + spirit run protocol, even if you have a thumper (which adds a 2nd distillation). The strip + spirit run protocol produces a big flavor and cleans heads and tails better to keep them out of your hearts cut.

Give this mash process a try next time. You’ll notice an improvement in extraction efficiency as well as the flavors in your product collection. Good luck.
ss

[sadie33]

congratulations on a drinkable product that tastes good!! It's so nice to sit down and enjoy something you made. It's also nice when all that hard work pays off.

[EricTheRed]

3) Hold the corn “pudding” at this (simmering) temperature for 45 minutes to an hour, stirring often.
4) After an hour, add cold water and reduce the temperature of the mash (gelatinized cornmeal) to 150-152*F. Again, stirring regularly.
ss

SS
If using enzymes I've not had to do this whole phase.

[still_stirrin]

3) Hold the corn “pudding” at this (simmering) temperature for 45 minutes to an hour, stirring often.
4) After an hour, add cold water and reduce the temperature of the mash (gelatinized cornmeal) to 150-152*F. Again, stirring regularly.

SS
If using enzymes I've not had to do this whole phase.

Eric,
Are you doing this step?

6) Hold the temperature of the mash at 145-150*F for an hour or more, until the iodine check shows you’re fully converted.

If not, and you’re simply relying on the mash time and consistency, you may be leaving some of the carbohydrates still bound up in the cornmeal. That is, your extraction efficiency could be improved.

The gelatinization is accelerated with high temperature enzymes, of course. But it is the time at temperature in water that activates the enzymes to convert the carbs to starches which will be reduced at the saccharification (converted to sugars). If you skip the high temperature step, you’re not getting the advantage of all the enzymes to break down the starches.

If you run the iodine check, you’ll see the iodine turn dark purple/black indicating starch still remaining in your mash. Your goal is the iodine (amber in color) to remain amber when you drop a drop on the mash liquid. That’s when you know you’ve been successful with the mash process. Incidentally, I’ve done hundreds of mashes in my life and to this day, I still do an iodine check on EVERY mash I do.

So, I’d be cautious of advising a new brewer to skip the gelatinization of his corn simply because you don’t do it. There is a reason for it in my recommended process … to educate the new brewer to the physical processes involved in brewing. It’s a path to success for a new brewer who may not have much, if any experience.
ss

[EricTheRed]

SS

thanks. Was a question more than a suggestion.
I've checked the iodine a few times. Clear.
With 23kgs of finely ground cornmeal and 10kgs finely ground oatmeal and 43

Edit: 129Litres - forgot to x 3

litres water I'm getting 100 litres strained wort which distills out to around 32/34 litres at 30% lowines.
Been trying to work out efficiency but .......

I will try to get temps up to that level and hold next time

Thanks

[EricTheRed]

Sorry. Realized i didn't answer you other question.
Once i add the ht enzymes i hold it at around 70 to 75⁰C for around a hour. That's 158 to 167 ish

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Sorry. Realized i didn't answer you other question.
Once i add the ht enzymes i hold it at around 70 to 75⁰C for around a hour. That's 158 to 167 ish

What is the significance of 158-167°?
Are those temps recommended by your enzyme manufacturer?
I may be wrong but those temps seem too low for HTL to work and so high that it might denature your gluco amylase.

Myself, I gelatinize/cook the corn at over 180°, holding it for a couple hours,
then when the temp drops to 150-155, I add malted barley or enzyme, wrap it up and wait for it to drop to pitching temp.

What brand of enzymes are you using? Powder or liquid? Different brands have different optimal temp range for the product to work best.

Below is from SEBstar HTL (high temp liquid enzyme).
The point of mashing is to break starches present in grains down into simpler sugars that the yeast can digest, and in turn, ferment. This is accomplished by two main steps, gelatinizing those starches (allowing them to absorb water) and then converting them to sugar. Gelatinizing starches can be tricky as it causes the mash to become very viscous and thick (much like oatmeal or polenta) as you cook it.

In some grains the starches gelatinize at lower temperatures, a temperature at which the amylase enzymes in malted barley are active. However, in some grains like corn, starches gelatinize at temperatures high enough to denature the natural barley enzymes. The traditional way of handling this would be to gelatinize the corn at the higher temperatures (usually 185 degrees or more) and then let the mash cool to 150 or so before adding your barley (so that then enzymes are active and will break down the starches). This, however, results in a very messy, thick mash that is hard to stir and cool down to the point where you can add the barley to break up the starches.

SEBstar HTL is a handy tool in this situation! Tolerating temperatures of up to 190 degrees before it becomes denatured, it allows for the conversion of starches at the same time as gelatinization. This prevents the mash from getting thick and gluey...
https://moonshinedistiller.com/sebstar- ... ture-enzym

[kodakjohn]

Thank you to everyone who responded to my post. It is obvious that I do not know what I do not know, so all this information is very helpful. I also know that there is more than one way to skin a cat ( sorry PETA ). Other that the temperature gauge on my pot, the still appears to have worked perfectly. So, I will concentrate on my mashing skills, recipes, and tools, like enzymes, iodine, and hydrometers. I think I am good with my cleaning and sanitizing skills. I know I can learn a lot from my mistakes, but I really like having this forum available so I can decrease my learning curve.

Again, thank you to everyone who was willing to share their knowledge and experience.

[Setsumi]

Maybe you should pay less attention to your temprature while running your still.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Maybe you should pay less attention to your temprature while running your still.

+1

[EricTheRed]

Sorry. Realized i didn't answer you other question.
Once i add the ht enzymes i hold it at around 70 to 75⁰C for around a hour. That's 158 to 167 ish

What is the significance of 158-167°?
Are those temps recommended by your enzyme manufacturer?
I may be wrong but those temps seem too low for HTL to work and so high that it might denature your gluco amylase.
The liquid enzymes i use recommend holding temp at 80 - 85°C. In speaking to Distilique (and having observed myslef), the enzymes work quite happily, albeit a tad slower at lower temps. They keep working right through the ferment

Myself, I gelatinize/cook the corn at over 180°, holding it for a couple hours,
then when the temp drops to 150-155, I add malted barley or enzyme, wrap it up and wait for it to drop to pitching temp.
Liquid from Distillique called Dextrolique

What brand of enzymes are you using? Powder or liquid? Different brands have different optimal temp range for the product to work best.

Below is from SEBstar HTL (high temp liquid enzyme).
The point of mashing is to break starches present in grains down into simpler sugars that the yeast can digest, and in turn, ferment. This is accomplished by two main steps, gelatinizing those starches (allowing them to absorb water) and then converting them to sugar. Gelatinizing starches can be tricky as it causes the mash to become very viscous and thick (much like oatmeal or polenta) as you cook it.

In some grains the starches gelatinize at lower temperatures, a temperature at which the amylase enzymes in malted barley are active. However, in some grains like corn, starches gelatinize at temperatures high enough to denature the natural barley enzymes. The traditional way of handling this would be to gelatinize the corn at the higher temperatures (usually 185 degrees or more) and then let the mash cool to 150 or so before adding your barley (so that then enzymes are active and will break down the starches). This, however, results in a very messy, thick mash that is hard to stir and cool down to the point where you can add the barley to break up the starches.

SEBstar HTL is a handy tool in this situation! Tolerating temperatures of up to 190 degrees before it becomes denatured, it allows for the conversion of starches at the same time as gelatinization. This prevents the mash from getting thick and gluey...
https://moonshinedistiller.com/sebstar- ... ture-enzym

Trying to keep 11kgs of grain in 33 Litres of water at 85°C+ is a scorch event waiting to happen. It also takes a long time to heat 33L of water to 96°C (we live at 1500+ meters altitude) - use to, don't anymore.
I used to check iodine and SG on each one, consistently clear and 1.07x - so i don't bother anymore (FOR THIS RECIPE)
total mash (across 3 fermenters) is 23kgs finely ground cornmeal FLOUR, 10 kgs finely ground oatmeal FLOUR, 129 litres of water, HT enzymes at +- 80°C, Gluco at 45°C, distillers yeast at 30°C
Gives +- 100 Litres of wort at +-30%

What would my efficiency be on that??

Just trying to work out if actually going back to trying to boil the corn is worth it?
The only way i could see that happening would be to use 1/2 of the required HT Enzymes at 80°C, then when thinned out, increase temp to 85 - 90°C, for an hour, then once cooled back to 80°C add the otehr 1/2 of the required HT Enzymes.
Would i actually get more wort out of this method?
Does having the cornmeal and oatmeal that finely ground make a difference?

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Never heard of those enzymes you're using but if they work, they work. And I've never used C°, only F° so I'm lost on those C°.

Just trying to work out if actually going back to trying to boil the corn is worth it?
The only way i could see that happening would be to use 1/2 of the required HT Enzymes at 80°C, then when thinned out, increase temp to 85 - 90°C, for an hour, then once cooled back to 80°C add the otehr 1/2 of the required HT Enzymes.
Would i actually get more wort out of this method?
Does having the cornmeal and oatmeal that finely ground make a difference?

I do similar even though I use a steam rig to cook with. If my corn porridge turns into corncrete, I use some htl enzymes to thin it out while it cooks but I try not to get over 190° so I don't denature the enzymes. I haven't gotten more wort but I've had better efficiency by doing this. I've also found that grinding my grain finer than cracked (but about like fine grits, and not finer than course meal) seems to help.
What ever your enzyme manufacturer recommends is what is stick with. Too low a temp it may not work or be slower than Christmas, too hot and it will denature and not work at all.

If you're get clear starch tests you're doing something right.

PS Other than mashing, about the only thing I've used a thermometer for is to help tell when she's about to start running, but I haven't used one for that in 40 years.
Some of these kids claim they can run and make cuts by temp, but I've never been able to figure that one out.

[EricTheRed]

Some of these kids claim they can run and make cuts by temp, but I've never been able to figure that one out.

Ha ha
Cuts by taste and smell only

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Some of these kids claim they can run and make cuts by temp, but I've never been able to figure that one out.

Ha ha
Cuts by taste and smell only

100% +1