Learn to walk before you run!

[BrewinBrian44]

I see topics pop up from new distillers that seem to have a common thread: Trying to run before learning to walk.

People new to this hobby that join our forum have a plethora of information at their disposal. Some of this info comes from true masters of the craft. Members who have seen it all and learned from mistakes, slowly honing in their skills over decades. These members willingness to share their knowledge is what makes this forum so great.

Some of the protocols and techniques of these members are very advanced, not meant for the novice distiller. They’ve gone beyond the basics.

In simple terms, there is nothing wrong with “the basics.” By basic, I mean a clean product, unadulterated with heads and tails. As a novice, if you get your fermentation protocols dialed, learn to operate your still without smearing and figure out cuts, you’ve already achieved a lot, and trust me, your product will still be delicious. If you perform a strip/spirit run and only keep a couple jars from the middle, there’s nothing wrong with that! Sure your yields may be small, but you’ll impress your friends with something that doesn’t taste like the nasty shine they’ll expect when you place the drink in their hands. You’ll also be able to drink it white, right away! If you’re worried about small yields, don’t! Save all your “almost hearts” from subsequent runs, enough to fill your boiler and do another spirit run with them. Your yields will be even higher and nothing gets wasted! Save the decent feints and run them again at a later date.

As a novice, your ultimate goal is making tasty booze that rivals your favorite commercial spirits. Great goal, but again, learn the basics and master them. There is plenty of info on here geared towards novices. Seek it out!

Learn these 3 things first and you’re golden:
-Ferment quality and health.
-How to operate a pot still without smearing
-How to find those clean middle jars and do cuts

All this stuff is in the novice section. Easy to find!


I’ll spoon feed a bit about running without smearing, which is likely the one of the main reasons newbs make gross booze. IGNORE THE PENCIL LEAD STREAM ADVICE. What is the thickness of a pencil lead anyways? I have no idea. Sure, if you have a 15.5 gallon keg boiler full of good quality low wines, this makes more sense. If you’re running a small boiler charge, totally different story. If I don’t have big charge, I run with just drips. Drips are good! It makes learning cuts a heck of a lot easier and your product will benefit from it.

How much power do I need? Great question, it’s different for everyone. There’s no magic amount of amps to use as a baseline. Your rig will tell you what it needs by the taste and smell of what’s coming out the pipe. Once you’ve heated up and start seeing the first drips, run very slow! Like 1-2 drips per second to get past the first 50ml.

DO THE RUB AND SNIFF TEST! This is a great way to find the sweet spot for power. When collecting heads, they should smell and feel like heads. Let the distillate drip in your hands, rub them together and take a sniff. If it smells like tails “dirty socks etc” you’re smearing. It should also feel powdery and dry as you rub it, if it feels oily, you’re smearing. Lower the power until it smells like isolated heads, leaving a few minutes in between. On the flip side, if you’re clearly collecting isolated heads at a very slow pace, increase the power, using the same protocol in reverse to find your max power before smearing. If you start smelling and feeling tails, dial back. This back and forth will tell you the correct power for what you’re running. TAKE NOTES!

This power will be different depending on what you’re running, so do this test on every spirit run to find the correct power. If you run the same thing all the time it should be similar.

As for ferment health, check out Shady’s sugar shine in tried and true and follow the recipe exactly! It’s a fool proof way to make clean booze.

Lastly, stop trying to do “wide cuts,” you’re not there yet!

Hope this helps,
-Brian

[Wildcats]

I see topics pop up from new distillers that seem to have a common thread: Trying to run before learning to walk.

People new to this hobby that join our forum have a plethora of information at their disposal. Some of this info comes from true masters of the craft. Members who have seen it all and learned from mistakes, slowly honing in their skills over decades. These members willingness to share their knowledge is what makes this forum so great.

Some of the protocols and techniques of these members are very advanced, not meant for the novice distiller. They’ve gone beyond the basics.

In simple terms, there is nothing wrong with “the basics.” By basic, I mean a clean product, unadulterated with heads and tails. As a novice, if you get your fermentation protocols dialed, learn to operate your still without smearing and figure out cuts, you’ve already achieved a lot, and trust me, your product will still be delicious. If you perform a strip/spirit run and only keep a couple jars from the middle, there’s nothing wrong with that! Sure your yields may be small, but you’ll impress your friends with something that doesn’t taste like the nasty shine they’ll expect when you place the drink in their hands. You’ll also be able to drink it white, right away! If you’re worried about small yields, don’t! Save all your “almost hearts” from subsequent runs, enough to fill your boiler and do another spirit run with them. Your yields will be even higher and nothing gets wasted! Save the decent feints and run them again at a later date.

As a novice, your ultimate goal is making tasty booze that rivals your favorite commercial spirits. Great goal, but again, learn the basics and master them. There is plenty of info on here geared towards novices. Seek it out!

Learn these 3 things first and you’re golden:
-Ferment quality and health.
-How to operate a pot still without smearing
-How to find those clean middle jars and do cuts

All this stuff is in the novice section. Easy to find!


I’ll spoon feed a bit about running without smearing, which is likely the one of the main reasons newbs make gross booze. IGNORE THE PENCIL LEAD STREAM ADVICE. What is the thickness of a pencil lead anyways? I have no idea. Sure, if you have a 15.5 gallon keg boiler full of good quality low wines, this makes more sense. If you’re running a small boiler charge, totally different story. If I don’t have big charge, I run with just drips. Drips are good! It makes learning cuts a heck of a lot easier and your product will benefit from it.

How much power do I need? Great question, it’s different for everyone. There’s no magic amount of amps to use as a baseline. Your rig will tell you what it needs by the taste and smell of what’s coming out the pipe. Once you’ve heated up and start seeing the first drips, run very slow! Like 1-2 drips per second to get past the first 50ml.

DO THE RUB AND SNIFF TEST! This is a great way to find the sweet spot for power. When collecting heads, they should smell and feel like heads. Let the distillate drip in your hands, rub them together and take a sniff. If it smells like tails “dirty socks etc” you’re smearing. It should also feel powdery and dry as you rub it, if it feels oily, you’re smearing. Lower the power until it smells like isolated heads, leaving a few minutes in between. On the flip side, if you’re clearly collecting isolated heads at a very slow pace, increase the power, using the same protocol in reverse to find your max power before smearing. If you start smelling and feeling tails, dial back. This back and forth will tell you the correct power for what you’re running. TAKE NOTES!

This power will be different depending on what you’re running, so do this test on every spirit run to find the correct power. If you run the same thing all the time it should be similar.

As for ferment health, check out Shady’s sugar shine in tried and true and follow the recipe exactly! It’s a fool proof way to make clean booze.

Lastly, stop trying to do “wide cuts,” you’re not there yet!

Hope this helps,
-Brian

Nice. Thank you sir. Wry informative

[Steve Broady]

One of the things that I’ve struggled with is the common advice to read, and read, and read, and all answers will be found. The implication, as least as I understand it, has been that any fool can do this if they just do their homework, and any problems encountered are purely from a lack of proper research.

While I agree that research is critical, that attitude seems to totally discount the benefit of experience. Some things just get easier the more you do them. I think it’s worth pointing out, as you have done here, that you really do just need to settle down and get the basics right, and that more advanced techniques are going to be unattainable for the time being.

In short, it’s worth remembering that this hobby isn’t just about having shiny stills and expensive ingredients. There is a crap ton of skill involved, and the only way to get that is through practice. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, or think you are. And yes, I’m very much speaking to myself as well.

[jonnys_spirit]

one thing that some find helpful is to experiment. other not so much... try never doing it the exact same way twice. get used to living outside the comfort zone. fail and pay attention?

i don't think you can run a pot still without smearing though but that doesn't really matter. run it slow and run it fast. run it how you;re feeling in the moment. take your cuts on the fly every so often. obsess over it and make three different blends. ferment with some anger and pour your soul into that bottle. take copious notes then burn them all with a jug of fores. put up a few jugs for long term and don't label anything...

DON't listen to me (i'll lead you astray guaranteed) - don't listen to anyone. figger it all out until you realize you don't really know anything...

quit drinking for nine months but keep running?

Cheers and good luck!
-jonny

[BrewinBrian44]

one thing that some find helpful is to experiment. other not so much... try never doing it the exact same way twice. get used to living outside the comfort zone. fail and pay attention?

i don't think you can run a pot still without smearing though but that doesn't really matter. run it slow and run it fast. run it how you;re feeling in the moment. take your cuts on the fly every so often. obsess over it and make three different blends. ferment with some anger and pour your soul into that bottle. take copious notes then burn them all with a jug of fores. put up a few jugs for long term and don't label anything...

DON't listen to me (i'll lead you astray guaranteed) - don't listen to anyone. figger it all out until you realize you don't really know anything...

quit drinking for nine months but keep running?

Cheers and good luck!
-jonny

I should have clarified better by what I referred to as smearing. Part of the appeal of pot stilled spirits is the smearing of early tails into the hearts. What I was eluding too, was pushing the bad tails into the run.

[Stonecutter]

one thing that some find helpful is to experiment. other not so much... try never doing it the exact same way twice. get used to living outside the comfort zone. fail and pay attention?

i don't think you can run a pot still without smearing though but that doesn't really matter. run it slow and run it fast. run it how you;re feeling in the moment. take your cuts on the fly every so often. obsess over it and make three different blends. ferment with some anger and pour your soul into that bottle. take copious notes then burn them all with a jug of fores. put up a few jugs for long term and don't label anything...

DON't listen to me (i'll lead you astray guaranteed) - don't listen to anyone. figger it all out until you realize you don't really know anything...

quit drinking for nine months but keep running?

Cheers and good luck!
-jonny

Ode to the craft right there.
Cheers my Brotha!

[NZChris]

A newbie should be able to make good likker right off the bat.

You don't have to read until your eyes bleed.
You don't have to know everything about everything

You do need to know the important stuff about each step in the process for what you intend to make. E. g., I don't have much sympathy for newbies who are asking what went wrong with their wash, when they hadn't done the basic homework needed before buying the ingredients and putting the wash down, or why their product tastes nasty when they hadn't researched how to run their pot still before they put the wash in it.

The reason I've always had a high success rate is because I've spent hours researching each product before I started, not because I was born an expert. It took over nine months from deciding to make rum to do the research, build a pot still, and run it. It was good molasses and made nice rum, but it took a long time to strip and spirit run, so I built a preheater like I'd come across when doing my research. It doesn't take an expert to build and run a preheater. I was a newbie and mine worked very well, I still use the same still three decades later.

[PLAYMP]

While I agree that research is critical, that attitude seems to totally discount the benefit of experience.

I think sometimes experience is the only thing that can actualize what you’ve absorbed in your research. The first time I did a neutral run with my CCVM I was following instructions from this forum but I realized I didn’t truly understand what it meant to equalize my column and what that looked like until I had things heated up. Could have read those directions 1000 times and not known what I learned after actually trying.

[Yummyrum]

Nice OT brewinbrian .

It certainly isn’t a case of “If I buy the fastest Bike and all the gear , I should be able to win the Grand Prix”, when I’ve never even ridden a Push bike .

But if you listen to advice and go really slowly , you’ll make it around the circuit and hopefully won’t fall off .

A few times around the circuit and you can go a little faster .

Learning distilling is the same .
Have heard often when someone will come here and say they have decided to make a keg full of Rum or Whiskey for their kids 18th or the likes when they have never even run a still , let alone made fermentation .

Theres no harm in having a goal , but small steps are needed before you are up and running .

[Bolverk]

I find the whole walk before you run idea very gatekeepery, and in my opinion it's the worst kind of gatekeeping because its under the guise of actually being helpful. It's saying I'm not going to help you because you haven't learned something up to MY standards yet or you have earned that knowledge yet.

Just because someone isn't walking your way, or in a way you find suitable doesn't mean they haven't spent hundreds of hours reading and researching the shit out of a topic to grasp it in its entirety before actually doing it.

I was taught to find something you want to do and learn all the steps to do it... isn't that what we kinda of preach here? Find what you want to make and work backwards; So you want a rye? How long to age it? On what wood? What char? How was it distilled? What was the grain bill? Etc...

But hey, maybe I'm weird... I like to experiment and push myself to do new and exciting things.

Best,
B

[Saltbush Bill]

Good post Brewinbrian

I find the whole walk before you run idea very gatekeepery, and in my opinion it's the worst kind of gatekeeping because its under the guise of actually being helpful. It's saying I'm not going to help you because you haven't learned something up to MY standards yet or you have earned that knowledge yet.

I think that's complete rubbish, it means nothing of the sort.
Maybe when you have been here for a few more years and seen the same dumb mistakes made time and time again you might understand.
The title of the post means exactly what it says.

[Sporacle]

Well put Brian
It's been nearly three years since I first ran a still, I am beginning to understand how stuff works.
I can for the most part diagnose what I am doing wrong and solve most of my problems.
It takes time to get the basics on a broad range of techniques.
I am still very much taking baby steps but have gone from a still spirits reflux still and turbo to building a 4 inch perforated plate and 80L boiler, if it wasn't for the very patient folks on here and on another site back in OZ I would have come unstuck a long time ago.

If I could offer one piece of advice.... when in doubt, step away from the fermentor

Thanks to all the super helpful people on here

[Bradster68]

Nice OT brewinbrian .

It certainly isn’t a case of “If I buy the fastest Bike and all the gear , I should be able to win the Grand Prix”, when I’ve never even ridden a Push bike .

But if you listen to advice and go really slowly , you’ll make it around the circuit and hopefully won’t fall off .

A few times around the circuit and you can go a little faster .

Learning distilling is the same .
Have heard often when someone will come here and say they have decided to make a keg full of Rum or Whiskey for their kids 18th or the likes when they have never even run a still , let alone made fermentation .

Theres no harm in having a goal , but small steps are needed before you are up and running .

That's a great way of putting it yummy.
I believe any hobby or even a job will require some learning and experience to get good at it.
Iv seen fist hand guys who spend thousands on woodworking tools and wonder why they can't build a bookcase.
Or a machinist who can't cut a mold.
A few years of using those tools and they start to shine.
This hobby is no different, and we all move at a different pace.

[Bradster68]

One of the things that I’ve struggled with is the common advice to read, and read, and read, and all answers will be found. The implication, as least as I understand it, has been that any fool can do this if they just do their homework, and any problems encountered are purely from a lack of proper research.

While I agree that research is critical, that attitude seems to totally discount the benefit of experience. Some things just get easier the more you do them. I think it’s worth pointing out, as you have done here, that you really do just need to settle down and get the basics right, and that more advanced techniques are going to be unattainable for the time being.

In short, it’s worth remembering that this hobby isn’t just about having shiny stills and expensive ingredients. There is a crap ton of skill involved, and the only way to get that is through practice. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, or think you are. And yes, I’m very much speaking to myself as well.

[Bolverk]

I think that's complete rubbish, it means nothing of the sort.
Maybe when you have been here for a few more years and seen the same dumb mistakes made time and time again you might understand.
The title of the post means exactly what it says.

I dont disagree that there are some stupid questions and questions that have been asked a thousand times that 5 minutes searching would have answered.

I'm talking more about the people that you can see are learning, trying to understand better, but still get smacked down for asking questions that are "too advanced" for them, and are met with the you should learn to walk before you run response.

[jonnys_spirit]

Run it early and run it often. This will likely help with ones research and the knowledge/experience feedback loop will reduce noise and increase signal.

Handholding and spoonfeeding have been shown to do the opposite.

Discourse and contribution build the community.

It might feel like a fine line at times..

Cheers,
jonny

[BrewinBrian44]

I find the whole walk before you run idea very gatekeepery, and in my opinion it's the worst kind of gatekeeping because its under the guise of actually being helpful. It's saying I'm not going to help you because you haven't learned something up to MY standards yet or you have earned that knowledge yet.

Just because someone isn't walking your way, or in a way you find suitable doesn't mean they haven't spent hundreds of hours reading and researching the shit out of a topic to grasp it in its entirety before actually doing it.

I was taught to find something you want to do and learn all the steps to do it... isn't that what we kinda of preach here? Find what you want to make and work backwards; So you want a rye? How long to age it? On what wood? What char? How was it distilled? What was the grain bill? Etc...

But hey, maybe I'm weird... I like to experiment and push myself to do new and exciting things.

Best,
B

The intent of my original post was to be the opposite of gate-keepery. Learning the three basic things I posted will give you great booze and you’ll be able to enjoy it sooner in the hobby if you focus on them. I even offered advice to get there.

Some of what I posted comes from my own mistakes when starting this hobby. I kept reading about wide cuts and tried taking a crack at them because you supposedly “need them” for tasty aged spirits. Ruined some of my earlier products that I invested a lot of time in by being greedy. What I consider wide cuts now is many less jars than I would have used when starting the hobby. Again, basic home mode booze with good cuts is good booze. A foundation to build upon and enjoy in the short term.

If you don’t understand the basic principles you’re gonna make some gross stuff. But hey you do you. If you wanna experiment before you know how to do the basics, have at it.

[Setsumi]

I find the whole walk before you run idea very gatekeepery, and in my opinion it's the worst kind of gatekeeping because its under the guise of actually being helpful. It's saying I'm not going to help you because you haven't learned something up to MY standards yet or you have earned that knowledge yet.

Just because someone isn't walking your way, or in a way you find suitable doesn't mean they haven't spent hundreds of hours reading and researching the shit out of a topic to grasp it in its entirety before actually doing it.

I was taught to find something you want to do and learn all the steps to do it... isn't that what we kinda of preach here? Find what you want to make and work backwards; So you want a rye? How long to age it? On what wood? What char? How was it distilled? What was the grain bill? Etc...

But hey, maybe I'm weird... I like to experiment and push myself to do new and exciting things.

Best,
B

The intent of my original post was to be the opposite of gate-keepery. Learning the three basic things I posted will give you great booze and you’ll be able to enjoy it sooner in the hobby if you focus on them. I even offered advice to get there.

Some of what I posted comes from my own mistakes when starting this hobby. I kept reading about wide cuts and tried taking a crack at them because you supposedly “need them” for tasty aged spirits. Ruined some of my earlier products that I invested a lot of time in by being greedy. What I consider wide cuts now is many less jars than I would have used when starting the hobby. Again, basic home mode booze with good cuts is good booze. A foundation to build upon and enjoy in the short term.

If you don’t understand the basic principles you’re gonna make some gross stuff. But hey you do you. If you wanna experiment before you know how to do the basics, have at it.

Myself identify pretty much with Brewinbrain44. But here is another that I adhere to: every man kisses his wife his way. You are free to do it your way.