Over Powered Startup Effects?

[Bee]

What is the effect on removing foreshots from a wash when the startup is overpowered on a CCVM in reflux mode?

[still_stirrin]

“Over powered” … do you mean the heat input over-powers the CCVM condenser?

If so, the most volatile components would flash up first, often entraining other constituents with it and if the condenser can’t manage the vapors, you’ll lose them to the atmosphere. Much of that loss will be the fores (acetylaldehyde, acetone and other ketones, and even ethyl acetate). But it may also carry some of your “good alcohol” with it.

The advantage of good condensing power, especially at the startup is “stacking the column”, when the fractions are refluxed and stacked according to their volatility. This separation will allow you to draw off the “junk” first with a relatively clean separation to your hearts.

Does this help with your question?
ss

[Laredo7mm]

Not sure I know the answer to the original question, but wanted to add that I think it is important to not run too much cooling water through your reflux condenser before collecting fores/heads. Run just enough water to knock down all your vapor and send it back down the column as reflux. I think this allows the column to reach equilibrium faster/better as you are not dumping overly cooled distillate back down the column.

[Bee]

“Over powered” … do you mean the heat input over-powers the CCVM condenser?

The advantage of good condensing power, especially at the startup is “stacking the column”, when the fractions are refluxed and stacked according to their volatility. This separation will allow you to draw off the “junk” first with a relatively clean separation to your hearts.

Does this help with your question?
ss

Yes, I was wondering if it could cause smearing of the heads/fores into the next few collections.

[DAD300]

If your aim/desire is to smear the components, just collect it all in one big container!

[Bee]

If your aim/desire is to smear the components, just collect it all in one big container!

Not at all!
Would be to get the heads compressed for tossing!

Just wondering if the heads would be gone or smeared out into the rest of the run.

[Salt Must Flow]

Not at all!
Would be to get the heads compressed for tossing!

Just wondering if the heads would be gone or smeared out into the rest of the run.

That would be the opposite of "compressing". Compressing would to to takeoff slowly to allow the column to remain stable as the most volatile vapors stay accumulating at the top of the column so that they can be taken off.

[still_stirrin]

… from a wash … (at) startup … on a CCVM in reflux mode?

Reading “deeper” into your question Bee, you’re asking about a one & done run through your reflux column for a wash and how best to clean it up.

Well, starting with high heat input will produce a lot of vapors (from the wash). So, you need a high reflux ratio to fractionate the foreshots from the hearts cut. So, you’ll need the best knockdown your CCVM reflux condenser can produce, hopefully to fully condense the vapors produced. You want the condensate to drip back down the column through your packing to help separate the volatiles from the water. You’ll need plenty of reflux cycles to do the work for you since you’ve started with a wash instead of low wines. A high reflux ratio is important.

And I would recommend running reflux for a short while before taking off product to better “stack the column”. Then, slowly open the CCVM “valve” and start taking some product, of which the first bit will be your foreshots and early heads. Once you collected these, you can reduce the heat input slightly to finish the rest of the run. And you may be able to open the CCVM valve a little more to increase production rate. But doing this will cause the %ABV to fall accordingly.

if you were running a potstill, you’d approach production slowly so as to avoid stirring up the boiler vigorously. A gentle start would reduce the amount of smearing you’d get from the front end to the back end. Potstills are run low and slow for spirit runs to keep from mixing things up too bad.

Reflux stills and potstills are different in design and operation and produce different products.
ss

[Sporacle]

Not sure I know the answer to the original question, but wanted to add that I think it is important to not run too much cooling water through your reflux condenser before collecting fores/heads. Run just enough water to knock down all your vapor and send it back down the column as reflux. I think this allows the column to reach equilibrium faster/better as you are not dumping overly cooled distillate back down the column.

Generally the flow rate is set. The condensor coil is moved moves through the vertical plane and acts as the valve.

The vapour will condense at a certain temperature (if the RC coil is colder it will just condense sooner and not travel as far up the coil prior to condensing)

When equalising 100% of the vapour is returned as condensate.

It's just my opinion but having just enough flow to knock down the vapour is asking for trouble, especially if you have a slight variation on your water pressure.

This all relates to the OP and a CCVM

[Bee]

What if, hypothetically speaking, over course, the RC never fully knocked down the vapor?
Would you still have a heads fraction come off first or would it be spread though out the run? Hypothetically, what if this was an all feints run? Would it be awful?

[Sporacle]

What if, hypothetically speaking, over course, the RC never fully knocked down the vapor?
Would you still have a heads fraction come off first or would it be spread though out the run? Hypothetically, what if this was an all feints run? Would it be awful?

You would have a heap of highly flammable vapor exitng the top of your still, then condensing and if you are propane fired.......

[Setsumi]

What if, hypothetically speaking, over course, the RC never fully knocked down the vapor?
Would you still have a heads fraction come off first or would it be spread though out the run? Hypothetically, what if this was an all feints run? Would it be awful?

If your reflux cannot knock down all vapour you will leak product out the product condenser or worst out the top. But generally you will see it out the PC. You could reduce power to align vapour speed with RC.

If the bypass is small it would not matter to much but you will smear. Smearing is 2 ways, good etho into fores and heads and heads longer present in hearts.

[still_stirrin]

What if … the RC never fully knocked down the vapor? … Would it be awful?

Worse than “awful” … it would be DANGEROUS. If you can’t condense the vapors produced, you’re dumping hot explosive vapors into the air.

It won’t matter whether the product tastes good or not because you may be in a burn ward in the hospital, or worse! Do not run your still that way … PERIOD!
ss

[Bee]

What if … the RC never fully knocked down the vapor? … Would it be awful?

Worse than “awful” … it would be DANGEROUS. If you can’t condense the vapors produced, you’re dumping hot explosive vapors into the air.

It won’t matter whether the product tastes good or not because you may be in a burn ward in the hospital, or worse! Do not run your still that way … PERIOD!
ss

Hypothetically, it could knock down enough to not gas out the top, but not enough to shut off flow to the condenser.

[jonnys_spirit]

What if … the RC never fully knocked down the vapor? … Would it be awful?

Worse than “awful” … it would be DANGEROUS. If you can’t condense the vapors produced, you’re dumping hot explosive vapors into the air.

It won’t matter whether the product tastes good or not because you may be in a burn ward in the hospital, or worse! Do not run your still that way … PERIOD!
ss

Hypothetically, it could knock down enough to not gas out the top, but not enough to shut off flow to the condenser.

In a CCVM it's a safety issue since it vents out the top of the column to the atmosphere by design. The RC needs to knock down 100% of the vapor or it's a critical safety hazard - every time. If it doesn't you need to shut the still off and fix that issue.

In a CCVM the vapor path to the PC is controlled by raising and lowering the RC - NOT by changing the cooling or knockdown capacity of the RC.

In DAD300's CCVM thread he says the ends of the RC should be 110-120*F range to accommodate this. I recommend reading the whole thread for more info
viewtopic.php?t=41579

Cheers,
jonny

[Sporacle]

This is starting to become a thread that needs to be moved to "what not to".
The basic safety principles that have been addressed by some very knowledgeable members seem to be ignored by the OP.
The hypothetical nature of the questions and the fact that some of the basic operating principles of a CCVM are being ignored make this a example of why new members get confused by different threads.

[Demy]

The important thing in a CCVM is not to have steam leaks at the top of the column.... if your RC can't bring down all the steam you have 2 options: lower the heating capacity or change the coil (more turns or other system ).

[Yummyrum]

Hypothetically, it could knock down enough to not gas out the top, but not enough to shut off flow to the condenser.

Well if the Reflux condenser is able to not let anything out the top , then its running just fine ….. and safely .

But if its also letting some vapour get out the tee to the Product Condenser, it sounds like it needs to be lowered more .

[Oatmeal]

How much distillate is making it past the reflux condenser to the spout, if that's what's happening? How much is getting sent down the column? I think if the reflux ratio is high then it really won't matter for the product,

[Sporacle]

How much distillate is making it past the reflux condenser to the spout, if that's what's happening? How much is getting sent down the column? I think if the reflux ratio is high then it really won't matter for the product,

If the vapour is making it past the reflux condensor, then it is also making it past the take off point.
So some off the highly flammable vapour will be coming out the top of the still, even with some product coming out the spout.

This is the nature of a CCVM, if product is coming past the RC you need to shut down and either lower your power or rebuild your RC

[Setsumi]

How much distillate is making it past the reflux condenser to the spout, if that's what's happening? How much is getting sent down the column? I think if the reflux ratio is high then it really won't matter for the product,

If the vapour is making it past the reflux condensor, then it is also making it past the take off point.
So some off the highly flammable vapour will be coming out the top of the still, even with some product coming out the spout.

This is the nature of a CCVM, if product is coming past the RC you need to shut down and either lower your power or rebuild your RC

It is easy to check for leaks past the top of the RC. Put a plastic bag over the top during fores or equilibrium. If you lose vapour you will see condensation.

I do know this from experience where my cooling water to the RC got blocked. You smell that vapour very quickly. You do not want to be there on propane.

Safety is, ensure proper height of the RC chamber. Match your energy input to your RC. Check vapour condensation out the top on highest energy input. Always have a visual/auditive on your cooling water return. Stay with your still. Operate your still for optimum product not speed.

[Saltbush Bill]

I do know this from experience where my cooling water to the RC got blocked. You smell that vapour very quickly. You do not want to be there on propane.

You don't want to be in that situation even with an electricaly powered boiler imo.
A room full of ethanol fumes and a spark from any source, not just a flame under a boiler could end very badly.
Escaping vapours from any part of any still are to be avoided at all cost......the risks are just to great to ignore them.

[Oatmeal]

My read on it is the reflux condenser is letting some vapor pass into the tee initially (to be condensed by the pc (cause vapor escape is extremely undesirable)). In which case probably not the end of the world. And depending on how much made it past the reflux condenser would still result in the heads mostly being compressed.

[Bee]

Kind of insulting for this to put this here.
One doesn't know how a condenser will perform until they use it!

The hypothetical condenser just may not completely shut off flow to the PC, while keeping vapors from escaping out the top.

[Sporacle]

Kind of insulting for this to put this here.
One doesn't know how a condenser will perform until they use it!

The hypothetical condenser just may not completely shut off flow to the PC, while keeping vapors from escaping out the top.

So reading this Bee......

if the condensor is capable of stopping the vapors from escaping out the top, then.........

it is 100% capable of stopping product from exiting via the PC

You just need to have longer exits from the RC to allow it to be lowered further down the column past the take off T, also be mindful of your packing height so the RC does not come into contact with your packing

Edit, the RC is the valve and should be able to be fully closed

I hope this makes sense

[Yummyrum]

I think we are getting on the same page as Bee now .

It is fair to say that a Reflux Condenser does not magically condense 100% of the vapour right at its bottom ( unless the cooling flow is ridiculously high and from a cold source ) ….. and we all know over cooling of the top head is not useful

But rather , the bottom few inches are very likely to have un condensed vapour still surrounding the coils which are adjacent to the take off port Tee .

And I agree with Bee that Hypothetically , there could be a vapour split in that Tee area if the bottom of the RC is level with the bottom of the port .

I agree with Oatmeal and said it myself earlier , if that is the case , then the RC needs to be lowered below the Tee to achieve 100% reflux….. Iff'n thats what is desired . ( And personally I would , but thats just me )

However , I also agree with Oatmeal that even though there might be a little vapour that ends up in the takeoff port , the reflux ratio will still be very high and compression of Fores and heads would still occur and be quite acceptable …… even if it is not the normal protocol of holding in 100% reflux for X amount of time before raising the RC .

[Bee]

The RC was hypothetically lowered ~2" below the takeoff T and still allowing product to go to the PC.

Hypothetically, it would get in the low 180s for most of the run with a high of 188.

[jonnys_spirit]

The RC was hypothetically lowered ~2" below the takeoff T and still allowing product to go to the PC.

Hypothetically, it would get in the low 180s for most of the run with a high of 188.

Any pictures of the hypothetical RC scenarios?

Cheers!
-j