Clearing Sugar Wash - Are Conical Tanks Effective?

[Salt Must Flow]

How much difference does clearing actually make?
If it does make a difference with your setup, how much copper is there in your still, and where is it?

This is something that wasn't answered.

I've always had copper in the main boiler & still head, plus I'm heating with copper elements in the still and copper coil in the preheater. That may be one reason why I've not noticed much difference when running cleared sugar shine compared to murky, compared to other distillers with less copper.

A trick I've been using lately, with success, is upping the pH of Low Wines to over 7 using slaked lime. I buy it at the local building supply store for bugger all. A sack lasts me for years. It also works to precipitate undesirable VOCs out of feints before re-running them. A conical tank would work well for that too, but I don't know that it would be a 'must have'.

For a few years now, I've been saving my feints for an All Feints run through my Bokakob to make high quality neutral, but the slaked lime has been working so well at removing VOCs before the run that I've been experimenting with running it through a pot still instead and I've been very happy with the results.

When treating feints with slaked lime, are you adding it at a ratio, testing the ph and if testing, are you using litmus paper? I have a digital ph meter, but never tried using it with anything other than a wash. I've used Sodium Carbonate in low wines and feints many times before, but it was at a ratio that I read about and I didn't measure the ph. I quit doing that because something didn't sit right with me, treating to raise the ph without understanding what was actually happening or knowing what the ph was. I'll have to revisit that, study the info again and also search using 'slaked lime'. I understand slaked lime is also referred to as Calcium Hydroxide. I have a lot of Calcium Hydroxide I bought cheap on sale.

When I don't clear a wash, tails are very strong (odor & flavor). When I clear a wash, tails are really feint in comparison. Cleaner in = cleaner out and that seems to be the case, at least in my experience. People always say, "when making a clean neutral, the further away from the yeast the cleaner it will be". This is the thread that got me first interested in trying to clear a wash.

[NZChris]

I got the idea from the Cousins Process. Cousins used slaked lime to capture and concentrate flavor, I'm using it to capture and discard flavor.
I use pH strips as they are accurate enough for this purpose.

viewtopic.php?t=70947

[zach]

These guys have a conical for a reasonable price $144. It's a little small, 55 liter, but would give you idea if it's worth the effort on a larger scale.


https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermz ... -132g.html

[Salt Must Flow]

These guys have a conical for a reasonable price $144. It's a little small, 55 liter, but would give you idea if it's worth the effort on a larger scale.


https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermz ... -132g.html

I found a brand new 60 gal conical for $128 within 45 min drive. I also found a new 30 gal conical for $187 in the same area. It might seem silly to pay more for a smaller one, but I really don't think I need a 60 gal conical. It's just bigger and bulkier than I'd like.

[Fozzy621]

I’ve got a cheap plastic 5 gallon fast ferment conical fermenter and I love it for small batches . It’s got a little yeast catching jar at the bottom incase ya wana use ya yeast again also to remove it when it’s settled . I tend to only use it for the second ferment but I’ve also used it solely . It’s a great bit of kit and it as allways fermented out quicker than my other normal buckets .

[Saltbush Bill]

"Clearing Sugar Wash - Are Conical Tanks Effective"
Already had more than my fair share to say in this thread......but here is another angle.
Possibly......... the beer gurus seem to love them, but then we aint making beer.
Will a conical tank improve the taste of your chosen sugar wash spirit to such an extent that its very noticeable?
I cant say for sure, time and tipping my fermenter at the right angle carefully clears mine well enough for my purposes.
Could the real question be " is it worth the extra expense to buy a conical tank"
Ive got one really big one that cost me very little, stainless and holds about 600L if I want, I use it once in a blue moon for big Rum ferments, I can't say its really any better or worse or takes more or less time than tipping a normal fermenter carefully.
If it hadn't been a really, really cheap buy at the time, I would say that it wasn't worth it.

[Yummyrum]

A flat bottom fermenter with a wedge to tilt the fermenter a couple degrees towards the drain valve.

Well, that's weird. I tilt away from the drain.

Why push trub toward the drain if the point is to decant off it ?

I can understand your thinking greggn iff’n you are looking at the pic Shady posted …… the drain is at the trub level .
Can’t speak for Shady , but my outlet is a few inches above trub settling height , so tilting towards outlet is very effective at separating off the last of the cleared wash . I have a setup as pictured below on one fermenter while the other is a straight hole in the side at about the same height as the bottom of the bent one .
Trub if settled , won’t move faster than the cleared wash can be poured off .

Salty , I’d hazard a guess that flavour-wise, a conical wouldn’t be any noticeable in flavour than a flat bottom fermenter .

[Salt Must Flow]

"Clearing Sugar Wash - Are Conical Tanks Effective"
Already had more than my fair share to say in this thread......but here is another angle.
Possibly......... the beer gurus seem to love them, but then we aint making beer.
Will a conical tank improve the taste of your chosen sugar wash spirit to such an extent that its very noticeable?
I cant say for sure, time and tipping my fermenter at the right angle carefully clears mine well enough for my purposes.
Could the real question be " is it worth the extra expense to buy a conical tank"
Ive got one really big one that cost me very little, stainless and holds about 600L if I want, I use it once in a blue moon for big Rum ferments, I can't say its really any better or worse or takes more or less time than tipping a normal fermenter carefully.
If it hadn't been a really, really cheap buy at the time, I would say that it wasn't worth it.

I hear ya about tipping fermenters. For my last several runs, I've been clearing the wash using Bentonite Clay and it works VERY well. I use a submersible pump to transfer most of the wash out of my 55 gal poly drum. I then tip and siphon out as much as I can. Tipping & siphoning is a real pain in the ass and it would be sooooooo convenient if I could just crack a valve and drain the trub into a bucket and pump the rest directly into the boiler. I'm thinking IF a conical would make it that easy, that's exactly what I'm interested in. I've never regretted investing a little bit in things that make the worst chore the easiest chore.

The metal stands cost about as much as the tank so I'm thinking I'll make my own stand out of 2x4s, plywood and swivel casters.

[NorthWoodsAb]

Attaching a speaker to the cone and playing your favorite music at full volume, Led Zep, Beethoven, whatever, may help keep the trub moving, Dueling Banjos when making UJSSM?

Good call Chris.

[Salt Must Flow]

Since I mostly only distill a few times per year, I have a good amount of time to plan for making improvements between runs.

I'm going to call this company and see if they will do what they can to get one of these 55 gal cone bottom inductor tanks in stock. They're close enough to warrant driving to pick it up. Shipping is retarded expensive for this tank.

55 gal Conical Tank.jpg (12.19 KiB) Viewed 3242 times

I'll build a stand out of wood with swiveling casters which I already have. I've had one of these Little Giant 4-MD pumps lying around for years. I think I'll plumb it to the bottom along with a 1-1/2" ball valve. That will allow me to wheel it around, use the dump valve with a spigot, valve with a hose or the pump with hose to drain and/or transfer the contents. That pump transfers at 10-11.5 gpm. I tested it today and I think it will work perfectly for this use.

When I do set this tank up, I'll probably start a new build thread with plenty of pics, show how well it works and how I use it. The primary use is to drain the tub after clearing overnight with Bentonite Clay. My goal is to make the worst chore the most fun

[Stonecutter]

My spike cf30 works great! A nice dump port on the bottom a racking spigot and a testing spigot all come in handy. I would highly suggest using a conical for fermenting and racking.

[jonnys_spirit]

Sounds like it would allow removing the bulk of sediment and then letting it clear - repeat a couple times and should be good. I use a vacuum pump setup to transfer top down from primary fermentor into secondary carboys and leave the sediment behind. This works great for wine. Would take a number of carboys for a large batch ferment but the carboys can also be auto siphoned into a larger vessel once they're full of cleared ferment.

Cheers,
j

[Salt Must Flow]

My spike cf30 works great! A nice dump port on the bottom a racking spigot and a testing spigot all come in handy. I would highly suggest using a conical for fermenting and racking.

I hear ya, but I don't intend to ferment inside of it at this time. I ferment inside of two 55 gal drums with swiveling casters. The drums are wheeled inside of a wood box with a space heater and temp controller. I even have a little fan inside that helps to recirculate the air within the box when the heaters kick on. It's not insulated, but it maintains temp very well.

Once fermentation is complete, I drop a submersible pond pump (1,340 gph) inside the fermenter/drum. It thoroughly recirculates, degasses the wash and kicks up all settled trub into suspension. I intend to then use that submersible pump to transfer the wash over to the 55 gal conical tank. I then add Bentonite Clay slurry to wash and let it mix for 20 min. I'll let it clear overnight in the conical drum then use it to drain off the trub and pump the cleared wash into the boiler.

The next day (or while the first batch is being stripped) I'll do the same with the 2nd batch of fermented sugar wash.

The reason I don't intend to ferment inside of the conical tank at this time is because I mainly need it to just separate the trub. I also want it to be tall enough to slide a 5 gal bucket under it if I wanted to. That height would make it too tall to fit inside my fermentation box. If I did ferment inside the conical, I still need to toss a pump inside to degass it, mix in the Bentonite Clay slurry, mix it all again and leave it overnight to clear. I have considered fermenting the first batch inside the conical and if I choose to do that in the future, I just have to shorten the legs on the stand to make it possible. That will be a decision I'll leave to the future if I find that allowing a bucket to fit beneath it is of no use or value. I've given that option a lot of thought so I left it as an option.

[Salt Must Flow]

Sounds like it would allow removing the bulk of sediment and then letting it clear - repeat a couple times and should be good. I use a vacuum pump setup to transfer top down from primary fermentor into secondary carboys and leave the sediment behind. This works great for wine. Would take a number of carboys for a large batch ferment but the carboys can also be auto siphoned into a larger vessel once they're full of cleared ferment.

Cheers,
j

Vacuum transfer is a good idea. I have a 1.5 CFM vacuum pump. I could try that and see if the tank is sturdy enough to not try to implode or buckle inward in places. I'm sure it would implode at a certain low pressure, but hopefully it would transfer the wash before showing signs of imploding/buckling inward. Vacuum transfer would eliminate the need to 'pump' the wash over to the conical. I'll probably try pumping it over first, but I'll plan on on trying vacuum transfer at some point, at least just to see if it works with this tank.

[jonnys_spirit]

I pimp the All In One Wine Pump (no affiliation) but I also have an oil-free diaphragm based lab vacuum pump with a relief valve to dial in the amount of vacuum that works the same. Works great with transferring and degassing into carboys from whatever as well as wine bottling.

This system is good for a number of things:
https://allinonewinepump.com/

Cheers,
jonny

[BlueSasquatch]

Why not add the clearing clay to the blue fermenters that already have some decent separation I imagine from sitting?

Have you considered adding insulation and either an AC unit or the guts from a freezer to your chamber and cold-crashing to clear your wash? Skip the clay?

I've designed but not yet built a 3-keg ferm chamber that is basically a deep-freeze with front doors and kegs on rollers using the guts from an old fridge and a heat lamp on an inkbird controller.

[Salt Must Flow]

Why not add the clearing clay to the blue fermenters that already have some decent separation I imagine from sitting?

Have you considered adding insulation and either an AC unit or the guts from a freezer to your chamber and cold-crashing to clear your wash? Skip the clay?

I've designed but not yet built a 3-keg ferm chamber that is basically a deep-freeze with front doors and kegs on rollers using the guts from an old fridge and a heat lamp on an inkbird controller.

Clearing with Bentonite Clay is just too simple. It's super cheap and completely clears within hours of adding it. It doesn't require anything special other than a submersible pond pump to mix, recirculate and pump it all out.

Right now I do add Bentonite to the fermenters then let it sit overnight for good measure. The biggest pain in the ass has been siphoning out the remaining clear wash above the trub. I have bruises under my arm pit and it's the biggest pain in the ass of any part of my distilling process. I'd rather pump it all out into the conical, let it clear then just crack open a valve to let the trub out. Flip a switch and pump the rest into the boiler. That's about as convenient as I can imagine. Right now I already have everything to do this except for the conical tank itself. Once it's completed, I think it will be an enormous improvement to my process.

I figure, if I distill 3 times per year, even with the price of sugar being as high as it is ... it only costs me $0.88 per day to distill. If I have to spend a few bucks on a conical tank, as long as it simplifies my biggest problem, it's worth every penny to me.

[BlueSasquatch]

I agree, the best hobby improvements are ones that reduce time/effort by the largest margins. Fancy gizmos are not as valuable as time.

I don't brew beer and I like temperature controlled fermentation but the Catalyst Fermenter (small volume) looks like a pretty great little system, they have a butterfly valve+jar bottom attachment for removing trub/etc from the fermenter that could be cool at a larger scale.

I was just trying to figure out if you could get away from having to transfer and dirty another vessel. If you added a bottom drain to those barrels and had a long enough pipe before a valve, your sediment would mostly gather in said valve. But they are still flat bottom so not quite as nice as conical.

If I were you, I'd just get two of those conical fermenters on wheels, and renovate that chamber to be taller and accommodate them, then do everything in those and avoid another container to dirty/transfer.

[Salt Must Flow]

I agree, the best hobby improvements are ones that reduce time/effort by the largest margins. Fancy gizmos are not as valuable as time.

I don't brew beer and I like temperature controlled fermentation but the Catalyst Fermenter (small volume) looks like a pretty great little system, they have a butterfly valve+jar bottom attachment for removing trub/etc from the fermenter that could be cool at a larger scale.

I was just trying to figure out if you could get away from having to transfer and dirty another vessel. If you added a bottom drain to those barrels and had a long enough pipe before a valve, your sediment would mostly gather in said valve. But they are still flat bottom so not quite as nice as conical.

If I were you, I'd just get two of those conical fermenters on wheels, and renovate that chamber to be taller and accommodate them, then do everything in those and avoid another container to dirty/transfer.

I definitely considered that too. The cost of two conical tanks, constructing two stands AND potentially rebuilding the fermentation chamber is what deterred me from doing that ... at least at this time. I figure I'll use one conical tank to clear and separate the trub. IF over time I feel the need to build another conical. I could just shorten the legs on the stand to not have to modify the box if I find that I do not need it to be tall enough to put a 5 gal bucket under it. Right now a single conical tank gets the job done at the lowest cost.

The area I work in is quite ideal. It's a large heated garage (no AC), smooth concrete floor, plenty of light & electricity, water, sink, hose & sprayer, multiple floor drains and multiple doors. I can roll the conical up to a door and drain the trub outside. I could place a bucket underneath the conical, drain the trub into it, dump it down the sink or chuck it outside. I could also just drain the trub down a floor drain and easily flush it down with a hose. Rinsing fermenters and the conical is super simple for me so dirtying a single conical is not a big deal and nowhere near as much of a pain in the ass as siphoning the wash above the trub.

BlueSasquatch, I was also considering another option. Once fermentation is complete, I could clear the wash overnight, pump most of the wash into the boiler then pump the remainder into a MUCH SMALLER conical. Like a 15 gal, 20 gal or 30 gal conical. Let that sit and separate for a while, drain the trub then separate the trub and transfer the remainder of the cleared wash over to the boiler. This gets the job done, costs less, smaller footprint, but more fiddling around and not anywhere near as ideal as a 55 gal conical. If I got a smaller one, every time I used it I would wish it was larger.

I even considered a single 100-110 gal conical. These are IN STOCK where the 55 gal ones are NOT. Ferment in ONE conical tank, clear inside of that tank, drain the trub and transfer only cleared wash into the boiler as needed. While this may sound pretty cool, it is much bigger and heavier than I intended. That size of tank costs $322.99 and would weigh 834 lbs when full. I'd be afraid I wouldn't like it. I'm trying NOT to pull the trigger on this tank just because it's in stock. I'm trying to be prudent, but still considering this idea.

[Salt Must Flow]

I just called the company and they cannot say if or when a 55 gal tank will come in stock for local pickup. They do however have six 60 gal tanks in stock ready for pickup.

60 gal tanks are 38" tall and the 55 gal tanks 47" tall. 60 gal tanks are 30" in diameter and the 55 gal tanks re 24" in diameter. It looks like 60 gal it is.

[BlueSasquatch]

All good points, I find the desire for more volume a constant struggle, but there are logistic challenges once the volume gets too big, I tend to ferment, strip and spirit run in different areas, so being mobile is helpful and limits me to hauling around 10-15 gallons at a time instead.

Have you considered distilling on-grain? I know this thread is sugar wash, but I suspect the same could be done, ignoring the trub and the like, no need to clear at all.

Sounds like you found the fermenter you want to go with, smaller volumes have less options but at some point the height/width vary enough that its worth hunting something that is squatter for your shorter chamber.

[Salt Must Flow]

All good points, I find the desire for more volume a constant struggle, but there are logistic challenges once the volume gets too big, I tend to ferment, strip and spirit run in different areas, so being mobile is helpful and limits me to hauling around 10-15 gallons at a time instead.

Have you considered distilling on-grain? I know this thread is sugar wash, but I suspect the same could be done, ignoring the trub and the like, no need to clear at all.

Sounds like you found the fermenter you want to go with, smaller volumes have less options but at some point the height/width vary enough that its worth hunting something that is squatter for your shorter chamber.

I primarily do sugar washes and aim to create the cleanest neutral I can. Clearing is the one thing that has made the most noticeable difference of any tip or trick I've ever employed. I've fermented in my boiler and stripped in that same boiler, trub and all. I can still make clean product, but when I cleared the wash first, it was obvious how much cleaner the wash was. The low wines were much cleaner and the tails during the spirit run were a fraction of what they would be if I hadn't cleared it. I know I want to continue clearing my sugar washes. That's what leads me to make that job super simple using a conical tank.

It turns out that this 60 gal conical will fit in my fermentation box even with a stand tall enough to allow a 5 gal bucket to fit under it. I found a listing on Marketplace for this exact same tank for $128. I'm skeptical, but if it's a genuine listing ... I'll be snatching that up ASAP.

[fzbwfk9r]

Bring back one from the near past for questions:

it has been mentioned bentonite allows the wash to clear, but the trub, once settled, is still loose and can slid with gravity along the plastic sides/bottom but does not stick much.

if so, those conicals would work VERY well, as the trub would just slide down and into the removal system, what ever that is for the setup.

Can bentonite be used to clear on grain same as a sugar wash?

if so, one would only need to source a sludge pump capable of moving the solids around.

[Salt Must Flow]

Bring back one from the near past for questions:

it has been mentioned bentonite allows the wash to clear, but the trub, once settled, is still loose and can slid with gravity along the plastic sides/bottom but does not stick much.

if so, those conicals would work VERY well, as the trub would just slide down and into the removal system, what ever that is for the setup.

Can bentonite be used to clear on grain same as a sugar wash?

if so, one would only need to source a sludge pump capable of moving the solids around.

No need for a pump if the conical is elevated enough to drain it using a valve.

[fzbwfk9r]

Thanks SMF

that's the info I was looking for

seems like Bentonite is a win win. add one small step, and make life easier.