So much for sugarheads..

[airhill]

Now let me see words like inferior compromise and sugarhead. And the whole point of this thread was to say its cheaper to use grain than sugar as I said I seriously doubt that. So basically UJSSM is a sugarhead by the grainhead definition.I suppose we would have to lump rum in the sugarhead collection.
Btw subbrew although yellow label works, it is slower and introduces a few interesting flavours haven't tried rye or oats but all the rest have been like that and you will be working your mill overtime getting the grain finer (especially maize) as its the only way I have found of speeding it up.

[subbrew]

Thanks for the tip airhill. I usually let me ferment go at least a couple of weeks anyhow so no worries there. And I mill pretty fine. I enjoy running my mill. I have it driven by a 1932 John Deere 1.5 horse hit and miss engine. Gives me a chance to play with my toys.

Probably depends where you get your corn as far as cost. I can get it from a local farmer for $7/bushel, so 56 lb. Conservatively you get 30 points of gravity per lb so that is 1800 points for $7 or 257 points per dollar. Sugar is about 46 points per lb. And here it is about 80 cents pre lb. $1 will only get about 1.25 lb or 58 points of gravity.

[airhill]

" I can get it from a local farmer for $7/bushel, so 56 lb"
Yes but that's like living near a flour mill with your son working there, or next to the bundy distillery in Queensland (where the rumour is they bottle the heads and tails and the hearts is something they just throw out)

[MooseMan]

Now let me see words like inferior compromise and sugarhead. And the whole point of this thread was to say its cheaper to use grain than sugar as I said I seriously doubt that. So basically UJSSM is a sugarhead by the grainhead definition.I suppose we would have to lump rum in the sugarhead collection.
Btw subbrew although yellow label works, it is slower and introduces a few interesting flavours haven't tried rye or oats but all the rest have been like that and you will be working your mill overtime getting the grain finer (especially maize) as its the only way I have found of speeding it up.

By definition airhill, a sugarhead is a second ferment on a used grain bed, that has sugar added to replace the grain starch derived sugars from the first ferment, so Rum definitely cant be classed as a sugarhead.

On the Yellow label being slower, are you pitching, and keeping the full ferment, at the recommended temps and turning the cap over until it drops?
And on the flavours, do you use backset to lower the pH?

[SW_Shiner]

Really it depends on how close to a farm shop you are. My local has 25kg( close to 50lbs or something) bags of corn for $37.99. the same amount of sugar would cost me a little over $70

[fiery creations]

I’ve been hitting the corn after realizing how cheap it was as well.

But it’s the labor involved for me. It takes 6-7 days of mashing for a full spirit run. And then there’s the grinding… even with an electric drill a corona mill takes forever. I’ve thought about chucking a sack of corn in my ball mill to see how it comes out.


I just made my first UJSM in probably 8 years. I was immediately mad at how quick and easy it was, wondering why I hadn’t at least made a few batches since then just as a needed break.

[airhill]

Shiner I suppose by farm shop this is a stockfeed store? I can get it here for about $35 aud I can get sugar from ALDI for less than $1 per kilo. Even at your prices sugar is still the cheaper option.
Moose
I do not use backset if I need to lower the ph I use citric acid. Temps are kept within recommended levels about 30c. I mix using a drill based stirrer and have not had the cap hang around for more than a couple of days. The delay seems to be in the finishing.
Btw I am not a real all grain fan; Its more useful as a yeast nutrient and flavouring than a sugar source IMHO

[NormandieStill]

Based on subbrew's 30pts/lb, I get the following:
25kg feed corn: 12.50€ = 1650pts = 132.3pts/€
1kg sugar: 1.42€ (Best price locally) = 101pts = 71pts/€

Interestingly, when I started this hobby back in 2021, sugar was half the price, so the maths wouldn't have held up then... although corn was cheaper too. In fact I was getting wheat (which I bought as chicken feed) for 5€ / 25kg at the time!

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

I don't know about anyplace but here, smack dab in the middle of sugar country (lots of corn grown here too), but corn is 1/3 the price of sugar.

I think my experimentations are gonna take me down a corn row next. Not because it's cheap, it just seems like the logical next step in my education.

Rusty

[Homebrewer11777]

The pts/lb numbers look right except the corn should be subject to conversion efficiency factor unless you are milling all the way to flour. 90% is probably reasonable.

But this rationale to use corn seems like it would make more sense if what we were discussing would be large scale production of ethanol for fuel. I only mess with corn because I love bourbon and it is important part of the flavor profile. But my cost of a bourbon mash is mainly from the small grains, perhaps because I use brewers grains. TBH before I switch my brewers grains for feed store equivalents I'd probably look at the corn and try food grade corn/cornmeal or even better heirloom varieties. Best price I have been able find for something like bloody butcher cornmeal looks to be $3.28/lb...

[8Ball]

. Best price I have been able find for something like bloody butcher cornmeal looks to be $3.28/lb

I get my heirloom corn from Bob, pre-ground & UPS shipped to my doorstep.

https://www.dancingstarfarmseed.com/distilling-grains/

The Wapsi Valley & Minnesota 13 varieties are also very nice.

[Steve Broady]

… even with an electric drill a corona mill takes forever.

I don’t know about that. I use a corona style mill mounted inside a 5 gallon bucket to contain the mess, driven by a Harbor Freight 1/2” battery drill, and can mill corn without issue. I just did enough corn for a 15 gallon batch the other day, and spent maybe 10-20 minutes grinding. The slowest part for me is having to stop to refill the tiny hopper, since I haven’t made myself a larger one yet.

Granted, if you’re milling 50 lbs at a time, it could take a little while.

[higgins]

Food grade is certainly worth it to me for the assurance of quality ingredients.

I use organic cornmeal (NO MILLING REQUIRED) and flaked rye from Azure Standard. Roughly $20 for 25 lbs.
My last order was for 50 lb of each, delivered to a drop point >2500 miles away for a total of $88.04 ($6.90 shipping charge), or $0.88 per lb.
My malt is from Morebeer - my last order for 40 lbs pale malt was $66 delivered >400 miles away, so $1.65 per lb.

My typical bourbon batch takes 50 lbs grain and makes about 2 gallons @ aging proof after cuts. My out of pocket cost per batch is in the range of $50-$80 either using enzymes/yeast or YLAY.

I feel quite blessed to be able to get these ingredients for such a low cost.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Food grade is certainly worth it to me for the assurance of quality ingredients.

I use organic cornmeal (NO MILLING REQUIRED) and flaked rye from Azure Standard. Roughly $20 for 25 lbs.
My last order was for 50 lb of each, delivered to a drop point >2500 miles away for a total of $88.04 ($6.90 shipping charge), or $0.88 per lb.
My malt is from Morebeer - my last order for 40 lbs pale malt was $66 delivered >400 miles away, so $1.65 per lb.

My typical bourbon batch takes 50 lbs grain and makes about 2 gallons @ aging proof after cuts. My out of pocket cost per batch is in the range of $50-$80 either using enzymes/yeast or YLAY.

I feel quite blessed to be able to get these ingredients for such a low cost.

You have a point; my comparison was for feed grade whole dried corn. Even at TSC the organic cracked corn is $19 for 25#s. I've never heard of Azure Standard before I joined HD, but I'm going to have to check it out. I have a drop station near my house and near work, I'm not sure exactly how it works but I may try it since I'm thinking about moving past sugar and rum. I prefer food grade when I can find what I need, even if I have to pay a bit more.

Rusty

[fiery creations]

… even with an electric drill a corona mill takes forever.

I don’t know about that. I use a corona style mill mounted inside a 5 gallon bucket to contain the mess, driven by a Harbor Freight 1/2” battery drill, and can mill corn without issue. I just did enough corn for a 15 gallon batch the other day, and spent maybe 10-20 minutes grinding. The slowest part for me is having to stop to refill the tiny hopper, since I haven’t made myself a larger one yet.

Granted, if you’re milling 50 lbs at a time, it could take a little while.

Yeah. I need 189 pounds for a spirit run... so it takes a while.

[Twisted Brick]

Food grade is certainly worth it to me for the assurance of quality ingredients.

I use organic cornmeal (NO MILLING REQUIRED) and flaked rye from Azure Standard. Roughly $20 for 25 lbs.
My last order was for 50 lb of each, delivered to a drop point >2500 miles away for a total of $88.04 ($6.90 shipping charge), or $0.88 per lb.
My malt is from Morebeer - my last order for 40 lbs pale malt was $66 delivered >400 miles away, so $1.65 per lb.

My typical bourbon batch takes 50 lbs grain and makes about 2 gallons @ aging proof after cuts. My out of pocket cost per batch is in the range of $50-$80 either using enzymes/yeast or YLAY.

I feel quite blessed to be able to get these ingredients for such a low cost.

+1

For me, switching from feed to food grains translated to an increase in yield and quality. Plus, I don’t miss the musty, barnyard smell of feed store grains.

Today’s grain cost to fill a 5gal barrel with bourbon newmake made of corn (Azure Standard), (home-malted) rye (Azure Standard) and pale barley malt (LHBS) is $180. (In 2021 it was $139). Yes, there are the usual miscellaneous costs but grain costs alone work out to $7 a fifth of barrel strength booze.

Understandably, there are many approaches to this hobby, but many of us are in it to make the very best spirit possible. And for me, this excludes sugar at any cost.

You have a point; my comparison was for feed grade whole dried corn. Even at TSC the organic cracked corn is $19 for 25#s. I've never heard of Azure Standard before I joined HD, but I'm going to have to check it out. I have a drop station near my house and near work, I'm not sure exactly how it works but I may try it since I'm thinking about moving past sugar and rum. I prefer food grade when I can find what I need, even if I have to pay a bit more.

Rusty

I think you will like the quality of products from Azure Standard. They are clean, reasonably priced and one can’t beat the free shipping (on $50 orders). If you have any questions, just holler.

[shadylane]

My 2 cents worth.
Reusing spent grain by adding sugar has it's advantages and disadvantages.
The spent grain and yeast only needs some sugar to kickoff again.
100% grain is best for whiskey and a sugar head will have a bite similar to sugar wash.
If your not using steam, the disadvantage is it requires squeezing again.
Mostly I us spent grain and sugar just feed a packed column for neutral.

[Deplorable]

Shiner I suppose by farm shop this is a stockfeed store? I can get it here for about $35 aud I can get sugar from ALDI for less than $1 per kilo. Even at your prices sugar is still the cheaper option.
Moose
I do not use backset if I need to lower the ph I use citric acid. Temps are kept within recommended levels about 30c. I mix using a drill based stirrer and have not had the cap hang around for more than a couple of days. The delay seems to be in the finishing.
Btw I am not a real all grain fan; Its more useful as a yeast nutrient and flavouring than a sugar source IMHO

Sugar is a metric shit ton cheaper down under than it is in the USA.
a 4 pound(1.8KG) bag of Cane sugar locally is $8.99, or $2.2475 a pound
A 50 pound bag of dent corn, is currently $15.00, or $0.30 a pound
Its probably one reason why everything in the US is sweetened with HFCS where everywhere else on the planet they use sugar.
Its cheaper to make sucrose with corn than it is to make it with sugar cane or beets. in the US apparently.

[shadylane]

a 4 pound(1.8KG) bag of Cane sugar locally is $8.99, or $2.2475 a pound

A 4lb bag of sugar here at Walmart in the middle of USA is $3.14 that's around $.80 per pound.
The price has definitely gone up, 10 years ago it was only $.50 per pound.
10 pound bags are usually the best deal and draw the least attention.

[airhill]

Apparently in the USofA corn syrup and HFCS (and I suppose maize) is subsidised by the govt, whereas imported 'sugar' is taxed. Why do you not hear often of corn syrup being used ie a cornhead.

[Homebrewer11777]

In fairness I've been using tractor supply cracked corn, organic when I can get it, and grinding it to meal. This thread has me motivated to switch to food grade.

Azure looks like a great option for either plain yellow corn or blue corn. But the drop system is not going to work for me. Nearest drop looks like 2-3 hour heavy traffic drive each way with $40 in tolls round trip.

That dancingstar link @SSail listed looks good but not really a storefront so no pricing or delivery costs on web. He has no issue shipping to hobbyists? Looks like more of B2B seller.

I have same concern about restaurant depot. I see one of those nearby but I don't have a business license so not sure if they will sell to me.

Looking at Agricor. Seems I can get that from Walmart or Webrestaurantstore.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Have you looked at Webstarant Store? I just bought 10 gallons of molasses from them. Decent prices and fast shipping. I think I may try Azure Standard but I have a drop just a couple of miles from work.

Rusty

[8Ball]

That dancingstar link @SSail listed looks good but not really a storefront so no pricing or delivery costs on web. He has no issue shipping to hobbyists? Looks like more of B2B seller.

You Do know how to navigate a website, right? Click on “Shop” at the bottom of the page, add to cart & enter your zip code to get shipping cost. This is a great seller and provides a fantastic selection of products.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Dancingstar seems really reasonable for the grain, I might give them a try too.

Rusty

[Homebrewer11777]

That dancingstar link @SSail listed looks good but not really a storefront so no pricing or delivery costs on web. He has no issue shipping to hobbyists? Looks like more of B2B seller.

You Do know how to navigate a website, right? Click on “Shop” at the bottom of the page, add to cart & enter your zip code to get shipping cost. This is a great seller and provides a fantastic selection of products.

Thanks
Found it. A bit clunky and paypal only but real issue was $110 to ship two sacks to New York. Double that for 4 sacks.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Thanks
Found it. A bit clunky and paypal only but real issue was $110 to ship two sacks to New York. Double that for 4 sacks.

Yeah, it was $70 for one sack to me. Probably not gonna do that unless it's for a special batch once in a while.


Rusty

[8Ball]

Thanks
Found it. A bit clunky and paypal only but real issue was $110 to ship two sacks to New York. Double that for 4 sacks.

Yeah, it was $70 for one sack to me. Probably not gonna do that unless it's for a special batch once in a while.


Rusty

He’s a farmer. He charges flat rate UPS shipping on top of his price. About $35 a sack for quality heirloom corn varieties, average, milled, plus $8 handling to package it, then the shipping which is out of his control. The heirloom corn really brings a great flavor to your glass. So basically double the cost of feed corn plus shipping. I’m okay with that.

[Twisted Brick]

He’s a farmer. He charges flat rate UPS shipping on top of his price. About $35 a sack for quality heirloom corn varieties, average, milled, plus $8 handling to package it, then the shipping which is out of his control. The heirloom corn really brings a great flavor to your glass. So basically double the cost of feed corn plus shipping. I’m okay with that.

After your reference to Minnesota 13 I read of it's long history and checked on the cost of shipping a sack from Dancingstar to CA: $35 + $79 shipping. I'm going to have to pick their best strain of corn before pulling the trigger.

I have same concern about restaurant depot. I see one of those nearby but I don't have a business license so not sure if they will sell to me.

If your Restaurant Depot is like the one here you don't need a membership. Walk in and pick up a non-member one-day pass. Heads up, though: for years I bought 50lb sacks of cornmeal from RD for $23-25. Then about 6mo's ago they stopped carrying cornmeal altogether.

[Bolverk]

Kinda reminds us why making booze was so dependent on what grows locally. Bob is a great dude, and I'd buy from him any day but man those shipping costs (not his fault) kill the deal for me.

I guess I'm pretty lucky though... I can drive less than an hour to a farmers market and buy bloody butcher, jimmy red, Cateto corn, and abruzzi rye just to name a few.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

The cost of the grain itself is more than reasonable, I just wish I didn't live in "zone 6". I'm sure I'll eventually try some of his stuff, but I want to practice on something a lot less expensive for a while. I'm probably gonna use this opportunity to try out Azure Standard or just grab 50#s of course ground cornmeal at Webstaurant Store, $40 and they drop it off in a couple of days.

Rusty