uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

[frozenthunderbolt]

As i understand it, your hearts are the cleanest part - the purest alcohol. Taking slightly looser cuts including particularly some transitional tails should up the flavor i would have thought, i think we can eliminate this though if you say there is no corn flavor on the outer jars either was worth asking i guess

[Odin]

When I started out on this recipe, I used Dutch broken corn. Now Holland is not the best place for growing corn. Didn't get over much taste. A change from broken corn from Holland to flaked corn from Hungary made a very big difference.

[blind drunk]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but is it supposed to taste like corn? I'm not a serious bourbon drinker, so I don't completely know, but I never tasted corn per se when I have had a wee dram of bourbon. It's more the ghost of corn than the corn itself. Maybe?

[Odin]

BD,

I think you do have a point there. If there is one grain that (in my limited experience) does not give off a whole lot of flavour its corn. When I compare it to barley (stronger), wheat (also pretty light, but stronger taste than corn to me). Rye is much stronger in taste. Not to speak of oats, because that has really a lot of taste in my recipes.

Still, flaked maize upped my taste profile by like 200% in comparison to broken (Dutch) corn.

Odin.

[troublestylist]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but is it supposed to taste like corn? I'm not a serious bourbon drinker, so I don't completely know, but I never tasted corn per se when I have had a wee dram of bourbon. It's more the ghost of corn than the corn itself. Maybe?

Excellent point. I seriously enjoy Booker's, but I'm pretty sure most of the flavor I'm getting is from oak. I'd have to try it against white bourbon to appreciate the contribution of the corn.

Tequila provides an opportunity to compare the agave itself (blanco) to the oak (reposado or anejo). I think blanco is a waste...akin to drinking decaffinated coffee (why bother?). But others disagree.

I taste something in the late tails that reminds me of corn, but I haven't pulled that through into a finished product that I enjoy yet.

Running Gen 6 now. Clarified off a layer of muck overnight, but the wash was still just as opaque. Going to throw my backset into my SF trial run. But I guess I'll have to follow this up over in that forum.

[frozenthunderbolt]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but is it supposed to taste like corn? I'm not a serious bourbon drinker, so I don't completely know, but I never tasted corn per se when I have had a wee dram of bourbon. It's more the ghost of corn than the corn itself. Maybe?

I had filched an empty bottle of JD from the roadside recycling to wash out and re use and had a sniff before i washed it. I almost threw up - it smelt like heads and plasticizers - chemically. Under that though i could smell the corn flavors and, some reasonably complex oak (that comes of 4 years in a barrel i guess).

Compared to my UJSSM that i had white, 1 month of oak and 2 months of oak last night, there is no comparison. Mine has oodles of corn flavor, is smooth, doesn't bite the eyes or nose, and has no sick making smells to it. I would imagine that the stuff i still have on oak will end up with a similar complexity of flavor.

In the end though in think it doesn't matter if it tastes like Bourbon (commercial crap anyways - have been rich enough to try top of the line) so long as it tastes good to you!

[Odin]

+1 FTB!

[Ghost]

I have spent the last few days reading over this thread and there is a TON of info in here, some contradicts from one to another but damn its a 77 page thread!just a few questions before I embark down this road ....

1. Does anyone invert their sugar on the first set up ? seems as though sugar is just dumped in and it takes off?

2. as it has been asked many times but I would like one final ruling - after the wash is done ... it will be ok to sit for a few days until it can be run?

[Odin]

Short answers: no and yes.

Converting: why put time and energy into something that the yeast does for you for free?

You can leave it for a few days. Cold place better than warm place, though.

Odin.

[Ghost]

Gotcha and thanks Odin - Im gonna dump it all in this evening and see what happens. I will use a hot backset after this though to at least dissolve the sugar.

[Odin]

You mite want to put in warm water now as well. Melts the sugar easier and will soak your grain. Using hot backset to melt new sugar is always a good idea. I also put in my replacement corn ...

Odin.

[frozenthunderbolt]

I have spent the last few days reading over this thread and there is a TON of info in here, some contradicts from one to another but damn its a 77 page thread!just a few questions before I embark down this road ....

1. Does anyone invert their sugar on the first set up ? seems as though sugar is just dumped in and it takes off?
I did the first couple of times but now just dissolve with back set
2. as it has been asked many times but I would like one final ruling - after the wash is done ... it will be ok to sit for a few days until it can be run?

yep

[The New Brew]

Hello Pro's!!! Great to be able to communicate with yall.
I have 2 questions and I have read read read. Please help. I am super new.

With UJSM, after you have taken the amount of backset you are going to use out of the still to add with the sugar for your next fermentation, what happens to the remaining fluid in the still that wasn't taken for the backset sugar mixture?? Do you throw it away? Reuse? Please help.

Last question; From my reading, I get the impression that tap water is bad. I have no cool mountain streams near me. What kind of water do you guys use for this recipe?

Thanks so much in advance to anyone who answers my super noob questions. I really appreciate it. Be safe all.....

[waylyn]

Hi The New Brew
I my self use around 40-45% backwash and I throw the rest have no way of containing it, and as it is a reccuring process so I have no problems with that process

[Ghost]

Started 2 five gallon washes tonight - SUPER SIMPLE. both are happily bubbling away within 20 mins of pitching the yeast.

[Odin]

The new brew,

The rest of the backset you throw away.

Tap water has one big problem: PH is high, so it is sweet. Backset makes your mash sour, though. Iron and other contaminants are other tap water associated problems, though minor. I use Brita filtered water. PH is 6.5 instead of 7.5 and it has less chlorine, iron, calcium, etc. in it. Not strictly necesairy though.

Odin.

[astronomical]

I tried stirring the compacted grain beds of my washes and it didnt help with corn conversion. The last generation finished an there was barely any visible wastage. Maybe this IL corn is the super crack. Unfortunately, I have no basis to judge the spirit agianst, so, I don't know if it could have more corn flavor. After adding 2T DAP 2T CC I've been having my ferments finish in 2 days. Maybe it just isn't enough time for the yeast to convert the corn. I've dialed back on the DAP and I'm hoping the yeast will be forced to convert the corn. I feel like my finished product has a a fair amount of flavor. The backset smells like bread. My tails have all sorts of flavor notes from blueberries to butter to vanilla. I have a strong feeling that the nurients I've added are just working too damn well. I've had washes finish in 36 hours with 7# sugar.

7G wash
Tap Water
25% backset
7# sugar
7# cracked corn (De Long Company corn)
Crosby Bakers yeast (1T at gen 1)
2T DAP
2T CalCar

Generation 1 "converted" about 1# of corn. Gen 6 converted less than an half ounce.

Does anyone else see minimal corn conversion? I read this whole thread and nobody ever mentioned it. I guess I'll try RODI water if stepping back my nutrients doesnt help. I think I will try more backset as well.

[Odin]

Astronomical,

UJSSM is a minimal corn conversion recipe. It's the sugar that gives the alcohol, the corn that gives the taste & nutrients. Now, I do notice on pretty much all my UJSSM recipes that some corn conversion and fermentation takes place. That's why it keeps on bubbling with me. At a very, very slow rate. Like one burb every two minutes or so.

I do not use nutrients. Let those yeasties get to work and extract them nutrients from the grains themselves. Maybe that helps in adding taste too. Don't know for sure.

What does help increase taste is:
- Up the backset percentage from 25% to 40%;
- Add some more grains in relation to water and suger (them staying the same);
- Use flaked corn instead of cracked corn;
- Add some 25% rye (okay, it will give you more of a RYE taste, but it is good, I can tell you).

Hope this helps.

Odin.

[Bull Rider]

What does help increase taste is:
- Up the backset percentage from 25% to 40%;
- Add some more grains in relation to water and suger (them staying the same);
- Use flaked corn instead of cracked corn;
- Add some 25% rye (okay, it will give you more of a RYE taste, but it is good, I can tell you).

From my experience, Odin is spot on with this information:

I've been using 75-100% backset for over a year, for numerous batches.

I change out about half of the grain bed every run, the quail have to eat too and grain is cheap.

I've been using only steam rolled corn and steam rolled barley for the past year. I add about two thirds rolled corn and one third rolled barley to the grain bed for each fresh mash.

Now and then I will bump the yeast bed with a fresh shot of yeast, either a Ale type brewing yeast or a re hydrated bakers yeast. I figure the strongest yeast will survive.

I use food grade Calcium Carbonate to control PH, I use a PH meter to keep the PH in the 4.1-4.4 area.

My mashes take at least a week to run dry, I keep a heater in the mash room and keep the mash at around 75 degrees F. Two week turn arounds are about average.

All of my product is double run, aired, then oaked.



Bull.

[Ghost]

Just as a side note, I did something different with my 2 five gallon buckets.

Bucket 1 has a heating pad on it and wrapped in a blanket

Bucket 2 is just wrapped in a blanket.



Both are fermenting at the same pace it seems. I have ran out of heating pads as I have two other ferments going and I thought I would see how this ferment does without the heater. Push comes to shove I simply go buy one if it slows or stalls. I keep my house at about 68 F 24/7. so far so good so good, both are bubbling along.

[Odin]

I find that warming it a bit, gives more taste. A fruitier product at that. But it will ferment out dry at 17 to 18 degrees as well. Just takes a bit longer.

[rad14701]

I think what is being discussed here can be explained... The backset becomes acidic and also contains some naturally occurring enzymes due to fermentation... When Bull Rider is using a high percentage of backset in combination with replacing a higher volume of corn there is good reason for that... He is getting some conversion of the starches in his corn due to the acidity and natural enzymes... The resulting amount of spirits collected from each subsequent distillation might reflect this additional conversion... His observations sound like the ideal for this recipe but everyone may not be able to have the same amount of success that he has had... That is one of the nice things about this recipe - that it is very adaptable to batch by batch results...

[frozenthunderbolt]

What does help increase taste is:
- Up the backset percentage from 25% to 40%;
- Add some more grains in relation to water and suger (them staying the same);
- Use flaked corn instead of cracked corn;
- Add some 25% rye (okay, it will give you more of a RYE taste, but it is good, I can tell you).

Odin.

I would add:
* try grinding your cracked corn finer
* Cook the corn till it gellatinizes in a slow cooker with some good sour backset (about 6 hours in my crockpot)

I have also used 100% backset before, and then added calc. carbonate to adjust the PH - gives more flavor at the expense of a slower ferment, even with the PH adjustment

[Odin]

So interesting to see how different generations and batches and approaches give various results. I also did a few 100%-ers. With CC. Strangely my ferments did not slow down. Well, the first did, but then I started using CC.

Frozen, I don't mill or cook the grain, since I use flaked grains now. Works good for me!

Rad, I get 13% beer out of a 3.5 kilo, 24 liter water, 3.5 kilo grain ferment. That's too much for just the sugar. And fermentation does not stop. It just gets ... very ... very slow. Like a burp per 2 minutes. Grain conversion, I guess. Even when the yeast bed is just sitting on some 5 liters of fresh water (the beer being distilled), it just keeps op working slowly.

Odin.

[The New Brew]

Thank you Odin and waylyn for the info!!! Fantastic.

[Titus-a-fishus]

OK
Just mixed up a barley UJSM
4kg flaked barley
4kg sugar
20ltrs water
14 gms Dried bakers yeast
2 Teaspoons Citric Acid

The flaked barley also has a small amount of molasses in it

SG 1.070
Temp 34 Deg
pH 4.8

Let's hope there is flavour with this one

Thanks for the idea Odin

Cheers
TAF

[Odin]

You are welcome Titus,

And I am sure you will get taste, this time! How is the brew smelling? That's some indication already ...

Odin.

[Titus-a-fishus]

Hey Odin
The smell is hard to describe.
Initially it was just like dry straw.
But now it has a totally different smell....
Not one I could say smells like anything else
Pleasant though

Took a decent whiff of the corn ferments that are going....
Nothing like these.

Have taken your advice and pitched another 14gms of yeast
It is already going like a beauty.

Cheers
TAF

[Odin]

Titus,

And if barley doesn't get you taste, you can still "upgrade" to oats or rye.

No need to, I guess.

BTW I am making a barley UJSSM as well. It has been going for a few days now. I want to see if there is some nice whiskey flavour now, but actually started it (as I have it in abundance) as an alternative to my All Bran vodka. So for a vodka with very little taste but lots of mouth feel.

Now I think: maybe should make some whiskey out of it!

Let's see what it gives us.

Odin.

[Ghost]

Cranked up the still this morning for my first run of UJSSM, 9 gallons went into the still and I ran it super slow. I kept out about 600ml of hearts and collected about 3/4 gallon of the heads and tails and some hearts to add back to the next run. Very impressed with just a single run! I covered the yeast and corn with 3 gal, collected 2 gallons of hot backset and put in the sugar - waiting for it to cool now to add back in. so far so good gentlemen!