Stainless Steel vs Copper Mesh Scrubbers

[bellybuster]

You evidence tat in the bottom few inches if you care to look and clean the packing. But not beyond. Correct?

I can for sure tell you that the copper at the top of a 36" packed column still turns black after a time. I've accepted this as normal and clean my packing avery 3-5 runs. Too easy.

[bellybuster]

now to toss something to ponder in the mix..... a column with only SS mesh.... why does the copper column itself not turn black? Why does a copper pot still not turn black????

[bearriver]

now to toss something to ponder in the mix..... a column with only SS mesh.... why does the copper column itself not turn black? Why does a copper pot still not turn black????

great question that I've pondered before, wish I knew.

I got nothing.

[rad14701]

now to toss something to ponder in the mix..... a column with only SS mesh.... why does the copper column itself not turn black? Why does a copper pot still not turn black????

The same black that builds up on copper also builds up on my stainless steel scrubbers... Not sure whether it gathers there after being washed off the copper patina on the column or whether it forms there naturally... My guess would be that the copper column does the dirty work and it settles on the stainless... Even when I clean the column, which is very rarely, I try not to break through the patina to bare copper...

[cranky]

now to toss something to ponder in the mix..... a column with only SS mesh.... why does the copper column itself not turn black?

When I run my pot setup it does get a black residue inside that can be removed by simply pushing a rag through the column, I personally don't think this can be called patina, although a simple rinse with water will not remove it. I use lava rock in my packed column but I would also assume the copper inside any still even a copper column with SS packing does the same as in the unpacked column, namely the black is forming from a reaction. If it is not there when you remove the packing I would also assume it was probably removed by the scrubbie itself scrubbing it clean as it is withdrawn from the column, after all they are actually intended to scrub.

Why does a copper pot still not turn black????

Hot acidic wash inside, great way to clean anything really.

Now, lately I have been running a glass column with copper perf plates. One thing I noticed was after the very first sacrificial run the lower 2 plates and downcomers turned sort of a black cherry color much like oil rubbed bronze. since I can easily watch what is going on inside I can see how the copper is being affected throughout the run. All the plates get the patina but the lower plates stay darker, throughout the run the color of the patina varies, getting lighter to a point then begin getting darker again. After the run as things cool down and air returns to the column the copper darkens once again to the original darkness. I believe this tells me that the fores are cleaning the copper then later in the run sulphides begin to darken it again and once it is over the oxygen can thoroughly react with the sulphides to return the dark color back to the copper. I have no packing in my reflux or product condensers so I can't say what they would do but the spiral of wire in my long liebig stays clean and never turns black.

[bellybuster]

When I said copper pot still I meant the head itself. Mine is not black inside.

[cranky]

When I said copper pot still I meant the head itself. Mine is not black inside.

Just curious, have you ever push a white rag through it immediately after running? Like I said, mine gets a sort of blackish residue that wipes out and a dark patina.

[casper the Irish]

Cu(2)O is black, but so too is copper sulphate reduced to copper metal. I suspect reduction rather than oxidation.

Either way it's a patina if it sticks, and being black it will add to the copper conductivity making the column more efficient.

I keep copper shards and bits in the pot to help it boil. They come out clean and pink. So if they're dissolving in the wash that copper is going someplace. But my rolls of copper mesh are not clean, but green or black. They are weakening and thinning too. And copper vessels are supposed to aid the flavour of whiskey. It is also known to be antibacterial so great for storing potable liquids.
How much copper does it take? Must it be all copper from bottoms thru packing to RC? Or is it enough to touch the red stuff in passing?

[emptyglass]

I made a large kettle for a commercial distiller for their Holstien twin column still. All copper. They get a similar black build up of crap after more than a dozen runs.

They notice it in the form of increase in run times. When it builds up to the point that it effects their run times, they do a cleaning run.

When asked in an open ended fashion, they assured me this was the copper doing its job and reacting with the unwanted sulphides formed in any ferment. This is in line with anything serious I've read about copper.

So, the black crap built up on a copper still is copper helping out, it dosnt build up on stainless cos stainless does nothing to aid the process. Sorry if I sound like I'm bagging stainless in still construction, it does no harm, but it also does no favours. Stainless is a wonderful material when used for the right job, IMHO, in a column is not one of them. That includes scrubbies.

Casper, FWIW, I dont mind stainless where the wash is liquid, but copper for vapour contact, that is, a stainless boiler is ok, ideally with a copper top, and copper for the rest.

[casper the Irish]

thanks eg, I'm seekin not preachin.
Im following Dad into csst condensers and rebuilding to 3" from2" copper VM.
He has also swapped his packing to ss spirals to reduce column height.

First problem is cost. i planned a ss head on a copper boiler+ column. Just priced this morning to convert my copper from 2 to 3" its $150 for a single copper reducer, but $10 for ss.

so if I knew where and why copper was
most effective, maybe I could build it in ss (much cheaper over 2") but make spp packing (or all mesh) in copper

[emptyglass]

I'm not trying to preach Casper.

But if you take into account what a store bought bottle costs, and also take into account how long it will take to age any unwanted flavours out of your finished product, you can short cut the "rules" by using copper in your still.

SPP is good for stills up to 3", but over that it can tend to lead to flooding, there are many threads on the topic. Its kinda sad that the SPP guys havn't played much with changing the size to see if it has other performance parameters, but they have been so solid in following what has been done before to try anything new.
Would be good to see innovation, not imitation as far as SPP is concerned

I love hearing new ideas, but theres no point wiping your feet on the same old dirty doormat the others have and say my boots got cleaned different.

Sorry if i'm going off topic, but its kinda all wrapped up in the one goal. to make good hooch.

Yes, copper is an expensive material, but it pays back. All too often I see guys comment on the expense, its a big reason a lot of guys use stainless in their still. They are shooting for the good, fast, cheap road, but all they get in the end is cheap.

[thecroweater]

Deja Moo : that feeling you've read this bullshit before. If you want the inside of you column to turn black and stay black find a way to heavily score it otherwise it will remain self cleaning. Copper packing acts as a catylist as well as a reflux strata. Stainless is much cheaper but doesn't clean shit. Use what ya want or think ya need but let's be honest about it

[casper the Irish]

eg "I am seekin not preachin" by which Im sayin I am not pushing cooper or stainless packing. Zi just want to hear your experience.

its not about cost. This is a craft. for me that means experiment, create, and in the end do it simply as you can do. That is the art in it.
I want to use copper where I can do. Why? 1. malleable, a hand craft. I can do it without asking the professionals to help 2. I hear it improves taste and can clean up my product domehow 3. Everyone says to use it

Why use stainless steel? 1. copper dissolves ans packing shrinks. where does it go to? Are all chemical reactions good? I'm reminded of dentists gaily filling my teeth with mercury Fluorine and plastics. One fact- copper catslyses pre-cursors to Ethyl carbamate. A white sslt that you dont want in your body. Not much if a problem in pot stills but a major factor for those who reflux. Again not a problem inside where the salt gets recycled. I don't wsnt copper in the vapour out downside 2. I have an all copper 2" VM. Are my benefits in the pot, the column, or the packing? If I experiment with ss (because of cost or craft or chemistry) What is it about copper that I want to keep, will it be enough as OP asks to have copper packing. or copper column. or must i also have copper pot?

[bunter492]

I bought some stainless steel scrubbers on ebay and popped one in some water and it rusted and corroded in little more than a day. Can anyone recommend the genuine article? I am in the UK. Is there a test for them for column suitability? I see many stainless steel tests but there are so many types of ss.

[oakey22]

Tesco do stainless ones. Think they come in a pack of 2

[bunter492]

Tesco do stainless ones. Think they come in a pack of 2

Excellent - many thanks - I will give em a go - The brand is Spontex and they have economy type but some better looking ones in 4 packs for 1.70GBP which actually state "rust free". I will give them a test.

[DAD300]

Look at restaurant supply stores and web sites. You did a great test...

[Bushman]

I would like to address several comments made as I read through this thread:

1. Copper packing compressing as opposed to SS. I have no idea which is better suited toward this question but I believe a lot has to do with the type of mesh (not talking about material used). I made my own mesh and for over 2 years it has yet to break down or compress. I believe this is do to the way it is packed and that it is a more dense material than what they sell on the market. See link: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=47650
I realize that with commercial set-ups 6" diameter plus columns they go with different designed plates as the size difference will compress mesh.

2. Also in over 2 years I have basically just rinsed my mesh when I disassemble after use and have not noticed large amounts of dark discoloration. Part of this could be that the dephlagmater I built removes from the top so I can thoughly rinse my column: see plans: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=28241