ccvm

[RandyMarshCT]

Sorry googe!

[Bushman]

No problem Randy you were just answering another members question, I just didn't want it going to far off course!

[googe]

All good randy, id forgotten about this thread anyway lol.

[casper the Irish]

I do do rabbit holes too, so thank you Zrandy for the wee detour. But still focussed on how the CCVM can be teased tested or modified, better than any other design, to do the best job. I have built four still designs off of this site since I started here 10 months ago. So many authorities for the newbie to discern, and so many trad.& stuck practitioners. For me, this thread is the bleeding edge, free thinking is welcome here. I think this thread should bear inclusion of all those questions to see if CCVM can push a bunch of limitations in this craft. Can CCVM be more than cheap and easy? YES! Simpler is hard to achieve, problems sorted- smearing, elimination of ethyl carbamate, and for me... easier than Odin gin, layer management from one column for my Irish whiskey, and the chance to build a 3" SS still at an affordable price without specialist welders.

[googe]

I personally don't see any big new ideas here, quick fixes maybe. The general idea is sound but needs some work on the mechanics of it. Most stills have fixed reflux condensers so.need no.mechanical aids. A simple to build efficient mechanical aid would step things up, for ease of use, innovation. is it doing anything different to reflux condensers already out there or is it just an easy option for some that dont have the skills or tools?. Sorry if that offends anyone, just mo.

[Jacksonbrown]

I agree. CCVM just did for VM what the boka did for LM.
When I started it was all about offset heads.

Cheap and easy.
Sure CCVM work great but do they do a better job than a normal VM?? I don’t think so, it has all than same advantages and disadvantages.
So it doesn’t need a $20 valve. Great.
I’ll take my CM for ultimate control any day.

It seems some imbue mystical properties to their still head of choice.
Sure there are a few idiosyncrasy’s to the different types but really, the actual work of separation is done by the column.
A couple extra inches makes all the difference

[moosemilk]

I agree. CCVM just did for VM
A couple extra inches makes all the difference

I know why you have the but somebody has to say it:

"That's what she said!"

[thatguy1313]

The main advantage to this build to me is that I can easily and quickly change from vm to cm to pot with a quick change of a cap. I have a cap with a cold finger condenser that hangs slightly lower than the takeoff tee and can run the still as a cm with that cap or just put a regular cap on and run it as a pot or take the cap off and use it as a ccvm. Very versatile by just changing one part.

[casper the Irish]

I agree. CCVM just did for VM what the boka did for LM.
When I started it was all about offset heads.
It seems some imbue mystical properties to their still head of choice. Sure, cheap and easy....but
the actual work of separation is done by the column

CCVM
1. Allows hobbyists to move from copper to stainless steel.

So what?
i. Ethyl Carbamate is far more of an issue for reflux columns than de-sulphuring. This cuts it out entirely.
ii. Cost of larger dia Cu fittings is prohibitive cf SS Now I can do 3" cheaper and easier than 2" and even incorporate existing copper column. This is just a simpler new head.

2. Flexible, modular, no welds
So what?
I. Experiment. Change modules, packing hight, fit gin heads, adapt still as you learn to fine tune or change recipe.
I I. Simplicity. Not just dispense with valves, no need to have reducers in the wrong place altering the ratio, or unplanned pooling traps.bStraightforward separation of vapour paths with wet condensate and dry outflow. Easy even for a beginner to understand what is happening inside. Compare this to most stills festooned by returns, branhces, valves, pipes, mysterious complexities to improve. CCVM at first blush has equalled or improved by removing all that clutter of accretion.

[Jacksonbrown]

Sorry, but neither of those points are valid to me.
You can make any still out off what ever you want
and your EC concerns are a bit overstated too.

[googe]

Adding and removing parts of a still to change its managment is a disadvantage in my eyes. I see no advantages to other designs in your statement casper the Irish.

[casper the Irish]

My 3" copper bokakob is gathering a white sediment around the bottom. I had it analysed. Ethyl carbamate is a carcinogenic salt formed in the presence of hot ethanol and copper as catalyst. On a reflux column it (or its precursors) form at the copper RC. Being a salt it cannot carry over in vapor to collection. However, any copper in the outflow will also catalyse precursors which, if stored over time, will form ethyl carbamate in your product.

I am simply swapping my Liebig (or worm) fro a ss cooler. To be sure.

Anyone can make a still out of any thing. Glass is good. Copper is easy, stainless not so easy. I've made a stove top from a ss cooking pot. I want to improve it, fix the leaky seal, add a lyne arm, a 3" column to get some reflux like the pro copper swan necks.
Bokakob was a big step forward to the Nixon stone reflux column. I think ccvm might just be a big leap up from my bokakob. For sure! It's a lot easier to build and being so simple it even looks better, in plain sight with no hidden tricky bits

[Danespirit]

That's why it is very important to check and clean ones equipment.
None of my stills have hidden areas, i can't eyeball.
I thought about this issue all along as i was building my equipment.
Casper...your 3" Boka, should perform very well.
There are several members running the 3" variation..one that comes to my mind is Hound dog.
But still, the CCVM is hard to match in ease of build.
It also produces with a good takeoff rate, even my tiny 2" does a very good job.
Edit: Of course it also depends on how critical one is...i don't go for azeotrope.

[Hound Dog]

I do like my Boka. I do believe Casper has a valid point. DAD has been on this for a while and it has brought about some heated discussions. While I'm not here to argue it because each can do his own, I want to rebuild my boka head with stainless. My condenser is already CSST. My liebig is stainless pipe on the inside. I just need the top section with the slant plates to be stainless and the takeoff tube then it will be complete. Of course that is the hardest part but it will give me something to work on for a while. Once completed it will be all stainless on the descending side, copper on the ascending side.

[casper the Irish]

I got some car exhaust pipe and the garage to cut and weld in the slant plates. MIG is rough, it even bent the tube a wee bit. But effective and easy.

However although 3" is better, the two problems with bokakob remains: some smearing from that pooling, and speed remains slow compared to VM.

You do of course have the option to swap heads of any kind on the same copper (or SS) column.
Wouldn't Dads configuration of an open Tee be the simplest? No cuts or welds. And much greater volumes.

Please remind me Houndog why I was delighted with my first 3" bokakob. Since that I've made a 2" VM that just seems to run even faster, less propane to buy, over 90%abv

[Danespirit]

Exhaust pipe is mostly made out of very low alloy stainless, i wouldn't use it for a still.
2 M of stainless , will give you a nice column..it's really not that costly.

[DSM Loki]

FWIW all of the stainless exhaust tubing I've ever used was 304.

[Danespirit]

I know some of the manufacturers use good 304.
But some of it is also a lower quality and what's even worse..if one gets aluminized pipe.
So one has to be absolutly certain it is genuine stainless pipe..using aluminized stainless pipe in a still, would be fatal.

[rad14701]

I was gifted 3' of 2" 409 SS several years ago by my muffler shop guy... I just checked it and it's acquiring surface rust just sitting in the pool house... I never checked it before he cut it so I'm glad it was free rather than whatever he wanted for it originally...

[DSM Loki]

Yeah, if you aren't absolutely sure of its type and origin I wouldn't use it

[casper the Irish]

TiG welds promote rust, with heat the chrome seems to migrate from the weld leaving it to rust at the seams. Any weld needs to be gas MiG, if welds cannot be avoided.

I found a dairy component supplier. I didn't ask the grade but his metal is a lot thinner gauge. It will need a welded collar joint to add a bend and reducer, but at least the Tee will slip nicely into a copper coupler

[pulsetech]

TiG welds promote rust, with heat the chrome seems to migrate from the weld leaving it to rust at the seams. Any weld needs to be gas MiG, if welds cannot be avoided.

I found a dairy component supplier. I didn't ask the grade but his metal is a lot thinner gauge. It will need a welded collar joint to add a bend and reducer, but at least the Tee will slip nicely into a copper coupler

If your Tig welds are rusting you have done something wrong. Ie. wrong filler or you have some got the weld contaminated with mild steel. You could also be talking about sugaring

None of my TIG welds rust.

[Danespirit]

TIG welding is art as well as knowledge.
Yes, some chrome will evaporate from the weld (a lot of other toxic materials too).
That's the reason why the fillerrod is made with a higher alloy than the material that is welded.
Correct treatment of the weld, is important.
This is especially true, when the stainless is used in a harsh environment like salty or chloric water.
It also relates to anything the distiller might want to build, as distilling also expose the materials to chemicals and heat.
Welded and treated correctly, the weld won't rust.

[peacefuldavid]

Hey all,

I am new to the forum (though I have been lurking and googling into it for quite some time..) but in the process of building my still. I was going to go with the VM from Appendix 6 of The Compleat Distiller, but was pointed to the CCVM debate.

It seems that things are always moving here and I don't want to build last-year's still if I can wrap my head around the latest technology. In any case, it seems that getting 1/2" corrugated SS tubing to wrap for my top condenser looks too easy (and cheap) for words. The pictures from DAD300 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:45 pm, look pretty easy to duplicate, though it seems that in 2 years, the group is discussing a different setup ... like the Y rather than T. Is their any current thinking, plans or designs that I can look at that would be superior to the pictures posted in 2013?

Thanks in advance, sorry if they are around I I couldn't locate.

[S-Cackalacky]

Peacefuldavid, I wouldn't get too caught up in concerns over bleeding edge technology - it's nothing like trying to keep up with the latest i-phone release. The pot still has been around for possibly thousands of years and is still just as viable an option as it was a hundred or two hundred years ago. It's more about building what fits your needs. If you need a simple build and want to make neutral, the CCVM is a good fit. If you also want to make whiskey using a pot still, again, the CCVM is a good option. The CCVM is becoming the choice of many stillers here because it's simple to build and is extremely flexible in the ways it can be used.

If you want the most desirable design (IMO), build a plated column. It's also probably the most difficult and expensive design to build, which makes it not a good fit for everyone. The only still designs I've heard of being discouraged here are the Charles 802 designed for fuel production and the older CM designs using crossflow tubes. If a still design is well vetted here by peer review, you can rest assured that it will work and work well.

[peacefuldavid]

If you want the most desirable design (IMO), build a plated column.

I have been reading and reading and I have not seen this deference towards plated column. Is that because it is so much more difficult to build than the packed column? When you say it's better, is that strictly in the sense that it can bring more flavors like a pot-still? Or is it about consistent results? If I understand what I have read so far (which is a LOT), packed is clearly superior for making neutrals. Plates are like running a pot-still with multiple thumpers in one column.. am I right?

Would you say more about this, or point me to a thread that does it. I haven't found a compelling case to warrant the work involved. It seems (from reading, not experience) that packed column afford the ability to convert to straight pot-stills, and depending on packing and flow-rates, able to produce similar results to plates. (but I know literally NOTHING.)

I am leaning towards the T-type CCVM because it makes sense to me. As I understand, the main drawback of the CCVM design is relatively slow tail collections, as there is no way (besides changing out the head) to increase vapor flow past 50%. I am concerned with the Y-design simply because I don't know how well my coil will ''plug up" the vapor side (i.e. will the tip of the coil be sufficient to achieve 100% reflux...) This concern may belay misunderstandings on my part.

Thanks again for any/all input.

[Danespirit]

Don't be to concerned about the Y-design gets your coil stuck..it's simply a matter of winding a decent coil.
Have a look at mine here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=52290
The more conventional T-design, does the same job...The Y just let's you add herbs etc during the run.
A packed column is really good at producing neutral, and it's easy to build.
A plated is a excellent tool for flavoured.
I am not running one myself, but those who are love them for the many ways they can be set up..especially if modular build.
In a simplyfied way, you can do the comparision you did with "potstill and multiple inline thumpers", but there is more to it.
Please take a look at the flute thread, there are many very competent people participating there: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=17952
My advice would be to start with a potstill and/or any VM variation. Learn to run them and enjoy some fruits of your labour.
Later you can go for a flute, if you desire.
It would be the cheapest and best way to start distilling.

[peacefuldavid]

Thanks for the reply. My concern about the coil wasn't about it getting 'stuck' ... it was more about 100% reflux position. With a T, the RC could move straight down over the offtake pipe, with the Y, the coil enters at an angle which wouldn't be 100% blocking the offtake... least it looks that way.

[Danespirit]

Sorry for misunderstanding that..
For a reflux to occur, the coil only has to draw enough energy out of the vapor to let the phasechange happen, thus condensing.
It takes surprisingly little to do that.
If you compare it to a CCVM with a traditional tee at the top, the vapor will only reach the first few cm at the bottom of the coil.
This will also be the case if you would have a Y instead of the tee.
Nervertheless, some put a scrubber or two inside the coil to get a bigger surface the vapor could condense onto.

[peacefuldavid]

Do any of these SS VM plans allow for thermometer? I read the post where you all could taste, feel, smell and burn to see where you where, but isn't a therm still good for a complete novice?

Seems I would have to drill a hole into the pretty SS Tee just above the Ferrule ... perhaps a gasket and therm wouldn't be so difficult, though I have never tried to drill into Stainless.