Using malts in place of yeast

[thecroweater]

It is somewhat unfortunate that you were piled on jmash but comments bout not wanting to research for what ever reason will get that response as will threads with titles such as this one. as far as posting in the welcome centre first i thin you will find that is the etiquette on every distilling forum can't speak for others but as lie entering any conversation generally its excepted you introduce yourself first. Ppl like to have an idea of who they are talking to and what their aim is, pretty understandable to me. As far as the celeb shiners you mentioned goes, two things. One, what goes on in there distilleries (or distilleries marketed under their name) has nothing to do with bullshit fallacies that go on on them contrived shows, Tim smiths head distiller is not tipping sugar in da kettle mid run t up da proof or any of the other hilarious gags from that show. apart from making rank as hell cuts Popcorn prolly did know his shit but was buried dead long before any whiskey branded in his name hit the market, now all these guys were promoting the nefarious business of illegal bootlegging and that is not related to whats being promoted here which is the safe fun hobby distillation for personal use with an added aim/ hope of seeing this wide spread hobby made legally available here and to some of us aboard (oz has a slow push going on at the moment as well)
PLEASE PLEASE don't feel bruised by the comments made here, very certain that none of the criticism was personal and not all of it directed at you personally either as the comments made and not just for you but to the many noobs, members and also johnny law that WILL be reading this. read up, see how we roll and you will soon find these guys are a great friendly helpful bunch that will go out of their way to see you right
Edit posted before seeing the last two posts

[jedneck]

jed, although your question has some validity, you have gone about asking it the wrong way.

Empty I think you got me cornfused with the op
Just sayin

[skow69]

jmashspirits14, I didn't call you any names, I was just incredified by your opening post. I couldn't believe that anyone would show up on a board like this and say, "I have a noob question. I know I could find the answer myself, but I don't feel like going to the trouble, so just give me the answer. I already know everything I really need, from listening to the great old timers, and here is the answer that I want from you, so just confirm it. [It just takes much longer to ferment right? Weeks in stead of days, am I correct?] My time is too valuable to bother with a keyword search. That's what you are for."

I don't think you are an idiot, but you are obviously ignorant of many of the basic principles of fermentation and distillation. And that's no skin off my nose either, but if you are going to write arrogant, rude posts, in a venue where you don't even know what you don't know yet, you probably shouldn't be surprised when you get snarky responses.

[Halfbaked]

EVERYONE, LETS KEEP THIS POSITIVE!

[S-Cackalacky]

Baked, I don't see that any rules have been broken here. Just a little tough love to try to get the ole boy on the right track.

[Halfbaked]

SC you are right. No rules have been broken. I am not speaking to or about anyone in particular. Just trying to keep this a little more positive. I think the OP knows he has lots to learn.

[bearriver]

A positive attitude can be %90 of the battle.

However, a positive attitude can be hard for some people to maintain when the answers to their questions are not what they wanted, or expected. Regardless, nobody is responsible for how another person perceives advice. We are all adults here and the OP is the one directing this thread. If he wants to be thankful or pissed about the best distillation advice available, that's on him. I think it's a damn shame he felt like he was being personally attacked.

[S-Cackalacky]

SC you are right. No rules have been broken. I am not speaking to or about anyone in particular. Just trying to keep this a little more positive. I think the OP knows he has lots to learn.

I have to disagree with you there Baked. It seems pretty obvious from his posts that the OP doesn't "know" that he has lots to learn. The tone of his opening post here and his unwillingness to accept the answer he received and the advice given has set the tone of this thread.

His question has been fully answered. Maybe it's time the thread was locked and allowed to sink into oblivion. Any chance of a "positive" direction has long since been lost.

Posted while Bear was posting.

[shadylane]

I vote against locking it. Yet
The OP has been given good advice, but some of his questions haven't been answered.
jmashspirits14 the ball is now in your court.
What else is needed to help you along the path of being a safe and successful home distiller ?

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

To the op.
Yeast must be present for fermentation. Wether it's added or wild yeast on the malted grain used.
Yeast does not cause headaches. Bud cuts do.
You cannot run a pot still by temps

There are your answers. It's up to you to find out why.

[cranky]

The 6th post on this thread was answered by me sending the OP to my spoon feeding thread. The answers to all the noob questions are there, all he had to do was click on it. If he doesn't want the help when it is handed out on a silver platter and wants to argue about it instead of simply reading and following I don't know what else to do. We want everybody in this hobby to do it right and safely but perhaps there are none so deaf as those who will not listen. The answers are here, you just have to do your part.

It is somewhat unfortunate that you were piled on jmash but comments bout not wanting to research for what ever reason will get that response as will threads with titles such as this one. as far as posting in the welcome centre first i thin you will find that is the etiquette on every distilling forum can't speak for others but as lie entering any conversation generally its excepted you introduce yourself first. Ppl like to have an idea of who they are talking to and what their aim is, pretty understandable to me. As far as the celeb shiners you mentioned goes, two things. One, what goes on in there distilleries (or distilleries marketed under their name) has nothing to do with bullshit fallacies that go on on them contrived shows, Tim smiths head distiller is not tipping sugar in da kettle mid run t up da proof or any of the other hilarious gags from that show. apart from making rank as hell cuts Popcorn prolly did know his shit but was buried dead long before any whiskey branded in his name hit the market, now all these guys were promoting the nefarious business of illegal bootlegging and that is not related to whats being promoted here which is the safe fun hobby distillation for personal use with an added aim/ hope of seeing this wide spread hobby made legally available here and to some of us aboard (oz has a slow push going on at the moment as well)
PLEASE PLEASE don't feel bruised by the comments made here, very certain that none of the criticism was personal and not all of it directed at you personally either as the comments made and not just for you but to the many noobs, members and also johnny law that WILL be reading this. read up, see how we roll and you will soon find these guys are a great friendly helpful bunch that will go out of their way to see you right

Well said thecroweater.

[Halfbaked]

I really don't think it needs to be locked. It looks like it is headed in the right direction.

[rad14701]

Sumbitch...!!! Late to the party and not much to offer that hasn't been said... I hate it when that happens...

[ben stiller]

for the OP's sake it might be best that you were late

[ShineRunnah]

Sumbitch...!!! Late to the party and not much to offer that hasn't been said... I hate it when that happens...

I freakin love Rad. You are simply awesome my friend, simply awesome.

[W Pappy]

The OP should at this point come back and humbly apologize for pissing up the wrong tree. Then all will be well in hd land and all will be forgotten.The info contained here friend is not worth throwing away because ya got a little drubbing.In a short time you can make a better drink than the ones you mentioned.Always welcome here but don't forget to be respectful to the best distillers in the world because they are here.If someone gives you advise here that is not up to snuff they will be corrected in a very short time.

[bearriver]

Sumbitch...!!! Late to the party and not much to offer that hasn't been said... I hate it when that happens...

A man who takes pride in his work

[ShineRunnah]

To the OP: If you think you can run methanol out of a wash @148F and then run the ethanol off @178F, I suggest you give it a try.

Now as you're waiting for the methanol to run, do yourself a favor and read the required reading. Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time to make it through all of the reading before you need to increase the heat to 178F and run the ethanol.

Now on a more serious note, if you do try to run the methanol off at 148F, you'll probably realize, after staring at your still for a few days straight and waiting for something to happen, that you probably should have come here and studied up a bit before deciding you had it all figured out.

And if you eventually figure out that you can't run a pot still on temp, and you still haven't done the required reading. Well, you'll be happy to know that nice wash you just ran is now junk. Yup, you need to clean that still before you produce drinkable spirits. First with vinegar, then with a sacrificial alcohol run.

If you actually produced alcohol, still didn't do the required reading and actually drank the stuff, well, I hope you made out better than the guy that ended up with explosive diarrhea and vomiting (could somebody post his actual statement if possible) after skipping the cleaning run.

Ignorant? Nah, you're just overzealous and misinformed. Best of luck!

[cob]

before this continues further read the OP's other post http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 27&t=53092 note pressure cooker.

[bearriver]

Projectile Vomiting from the first run

[ShineRunnah]

Projectile Vomiting from the first run

Thanks Bear. I thought it involved diarrhea as well. Regardless, it's probably not a good first experience....

[corene1]

I would say that the OP has been thoroughly reprimanded and that there is nothing more that could be said that will show the error he has made. I would suggest a little ceasefire and see if he comes back for some serious learning . Since I have been on the forum I have seen more than one newbee come with an attitude get a scolding and become a contributing member of the forum. Or he will see his mistakes and realize everything that was mentioned here is the truth. Just my thoughts.

[emptyglass]

jed, although your question has some validity, you have gone about asking it the wrong way.

Empty I think you got me cornfused with the op
Just sayin

Whoops, sorry Jed, my bad

[jmashspirits14]

See, everyone completely misunderstood my intentions and demeanor. I didn't say I want willing to research or read. I have read many articles online, its just hard for me to navigate a forum with this format. The reason I use Facebook forums, because I can navigate them easily. I never intended to insult anyone! Every single person here probably knows more than I do about this. Even trying to back to earlier posts really does me no good because they're really aren't definitive answers. There's half of everyone that's says its done this way then the other half says no its done this way. Every forum us like this no matter what the topic. Like I told a member on here privately, I have zero intentions of becoming a commercial distiller, I just want to produce a good tasting, Smooth, safe product for myself, friends, and family to sit around the fire and enjoy a little apple pie, and maybe some good brandy. I do however plan to get a permit to produce ethanol. I'm not trying to take any short cuts, i want to learn correctly. A couple articles I read state that methanol evaporates at roughly 148f and ethanol between 174-178f, I understand this will vary depending on differences in many things like different mashes or washes. I have ordered a brewing and a proofing hydrometer. I do know some things. I do not however understand why a malt and yeast would be needed in the same mash. I know from school and the experiment I did for biology class on how alcohol I'd made that if you have sugar, and yeast in water of some kind aldol will be made. My mash/ wash that's brewing now is 80% corn, 20% wheat in 5 lb, 5 lb sugar, 5 gal water, and 1/4oz yeast. I cooked the grain to 160f, removed it from the heat and devolved the sugar, I let the temp drop to about 115f per the instruction on the yeast and stirred it in slowly. It started fermenting almost immediately, it has been going strong 3 days now and us showing no signs of slowing down. My air lock produces bursts of about 30 to 50 bubbles every 3-5 minutes. This had been steady for 3 days now. Is this any good, because I sure would hate true it out seeing that its producing alcohol at a high rate of speed. I'm sure my first distill will be shitty but I'll learn. My pot is 5 gallon stainless and the rest is copper. Its a traditional still with a doubler and a worm. I'm sorry if Ioffended anyone

[Usge]

Since this is still going in some fashion or another...thought I'd add just another tidbit or two as to the original subject. According to some of the older folk, (Dnder in particular), the folklore about using yeast (or not) may have come about in part because in the old days...store bought yeast in those parts was God Awful. Dnder said, it looked like some sludge out of the bottom of an old freezer you were cleaning out. And it smelled even worse. People avoided using it like the plague unless they just had to (ie, if they were trying to do something in winter, etc).

Wild yeast is everywhere. If you leave a glass of OJ out on the counter...it will start to ferment. It would also be on the barrels and paddles etc..that shiners used. Not to mention...malt they made out in the woods. My own experience with wild yeast was that in general...it has a more sour smell and taste. Sometimes you hit something unique, and you get floral notes from it. But, most always...it was fast to start...but quick to die out. (weak).

Today, you can buy just about any variety of brewing, distillers, etc..yeast you want for relatively cheap in pristine packets or sterilized tubes. There's not really any good reason "not" to use it...unless you just want to do it the hard/old way for the sake of history, legacy or experimenting. (not that there is anything wrong with that either). The arguments about it sort of reminded me about when my Grandparents first realized they could buy just the parts of meat they wanted from the store, individually wrapped, only what they need, without having to kill an animal and cut it up and preserve the rest of it. Or bread or biscuits from a can that were fluffy and light instead of the lead weight bread they made at the time.

I get nostalgic for those old heavy scratch cathead biscuits every now and again. But, I can shore nuff tell you my grandmaw, who used to make them daily, thought those can biscuits were the Shiznit. And my Grandfather never complained about the fried chicken or pork chops, ham, etc. he ate after never having to butcher another animal. They did things the way they did because that's what they had to work with. Was it better? etc. That's up to you. What you like, what trade-offs work for you.

Today, we can get EVERYTHING from the store...online...and have it mailed to us!!! Don't even have to "go" to the store. What we complain about today is different (for the most part). WE want things that are "natural"...not processed to death, etc. We want to go back to the good ole days! Back then...to my Grandmaw...those biscuits were a marvel of science and something impossible to do with the old yeast they used. (to get it that light and fluffy). She thought it was amazing and good. Today, plenty of people would kill to have a taste of the old heavy biscuits they used to eat because it reminds them of home or time long past. It's all good! Enjoy!

[woodshed]

No offense taken here. it can be hard to tell if an OP is serious or not especially with their first post.
Sounds like you have spent some time on forums so you know what the whole troll thing can be.

Malt alone may have some wild yeast come with it but your results will be hard to duplicate and chances of producing anything worth drinking slim. If results were consistent those of us in the trade would just use malt. One less step and cheaper that way.
Seriously doubt you will find any distillery counting on wild yeast attached to malt for production purposes. Just not realistic.
The only better explanation you will receive than that is the one you find with research here at HD.

Stopping at 160f will do nothing for your heavy corn bill so do not expect much return out of this protocol. In other words do not be disappointed when you produce very little alcohol and a weak tasting sugarhead.

Hate to sound like a broken record but you would know this with the research we consider mandatory. Glad you came back but if you are not in a position to do the research for whatever reason maybe you should wait until you are. Chances are high you keep coming back here asking these most basic of questions the flaming will continue. Not from me though. This will be my last words on this thread. Good Luck.

[W Pappy]

Malt will turn starches into sugar only if done at the correct temps.You have to add yeast intentionally or not no getting around it that is what produces ethanol.I would not add yeast until the temp is 85 to 90F start your yeast in 110/115F glass of water.
When it gets good and foamy pitch.
Posted same time you guys were ha.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I do not however understand why a malt and yeast would be needed in the same mash. I know from school and the experiment I did for biology class on how alcohol I'd made that if you have sugar, and yeast in water of some kind aldol will be made. My mash/ wash that's brewing now is 80% corn, 20% wheat in 5 lb, 5 lb sugar, 5 gal water, and 1/4oz yeast.

It may be that you don't understand what malt and yeast do. Malted grains provide enzymes to convert starches to sugars. Yeast ferment the sugars into alcohol.
When we talk about malt, we're talking about malted grains, not the stuff that comes in a jar for milkshakes.
I'm guessing you just used raw corn and wheat, neither of which will contribute any enzymes to your "mash". Those grains will only contribute flavor, not anything fermentable.
You don't need to add malted grains to a sugar wash to get fermentation, but yeast is absolutely required, whether you add it, or you let nature take its course.
There is a lot to learn, and this site is the best place to explore.

[shadylane]

jmashspirits14
Just a suggestion, the more research you do, the better your questions will be.
This will motivate the other forum members to help you find the answers.

[jedneck]

Maybe tell us what makes it hard to navigate the forum. Somebody here might have some ideas to help you out. We want you to be as successful as you can be and have it be enjoyable.