Supplementing Nutritionally Deficient ALL GRAIN Mashes

[Matt86]

A healthy dose of nutrients makes a big difference in beer brewing, it doesn't take much yeast stress to make a noticeable flavour contribution.
Yes, all grain usually has no difficulty fermenting out at a rapid rate especially at the elevated temperatures we use, however yeast stress will have an impact on flavour.
And that has to come through to a degree when distilling.

[Jimbo]

Ive never had to supplement nutrition on beers or single malts. Never had a problem in hundreds of batches over 20 years, ever, with beer. SIngle malts too. But the unmalted grain runs are a different story seems.

[Matt86]

I don't have to add nutrients to get good fermentation from 80% unmalted mashes, but I choose to because I prefer the taste of the beer when I do.
Now I don't have 20 years brewing but I have noticed differences between all grain brews with or without nutrients.
Now whether this is more of an issue because of micro-nutrient variations in my water, or some other factor, I'm fairly confident that suitable nutrient additions have improved my beer (no adjunct brews).
I see it as a small extra step that can increase the health of the yeast population, and I doubt anyone would argue that is a negative.

[Jimbo]

You make 80% unmalted beers? What style, how do they turn out?

[Matt86]

You make 80% unmalted beers? What style, how do they turn out?

No, for distillation only! I always thought all grain 'wash' was also called beer?
I meant the taste of the beer before I strip it.

[Jimbo]

haha ok, ya its often called beer too. Confusing. I think most here call it a wash if its for whiskey to avoid confusion.

Ive done bourbons with no nutrients, and been fine. I think even 20-30% mixed barley and wheat malts are enough to keep the yeast happy. And water is central I believe to success here too. But for me at least, things get dicey with 100% unmalted. Anyway, that was what I was trying to address here in my original post.

[woodshed]

I have done countless mashes without adding nutrients and been just fine as well.
But faster, more complete and complex ferments wins out when it's a business.

The malting process loosens up available food and nutrients for growth. Without malting things are still held pretty tight to the chest.
Water is very important. Check out your local water through your water district. Easy to get a report. Find your ph sweet spot and hit it every step, every time.

Ferment at 80f or higher with an appropriate yeast, DADY being the easiest and most likely to handle the extra workload.
Have nutrients readily available at the get go to smooth the extra workload.

Ultra Ferm liquid enzymes if only added to the fermenter can drastically improve the process in conjunction with the nutrients. Lower FG and better flavor extraction IMO.

[skow69]

Wow shed. Thanks. That's like Cliff Notes for Whiskey 101.
Lot of information in a small space. I knew all that (of course) but it's cool to see the whole thing in one spot.

[woodshed]

I should also say the equivalent SEB enzyme will accomplish the same added to ferment. Either work well with inmalted grain but also as a boost to any grain bill. The extraction of flavors is enhanced with a small bump in yield. Both good things.

[woodshed]

Back to nutrients, the words cell division and growth first pointed me to pre natal vits. Followed up with healthy red blood cells and lowering the chance of anemia. Spoken to me by a midwife friend over beers.

The reason for this is the higher concentrations of Folic acid, a B vitamin, found in prenatal vits. Levels of iron (think oxygen magnet) and calcium are often increased as well. All about healthy growth which is what we all want from our yeast. Happy yeast make superior product. And more of it.

[3d0g]

OK, I've discovered one complicating factor with Fermax - it raises pH. 6 gallon Mash with a pH of 4.9 shot up to 6.5 after adding the recommended 6 teaspoons. That's enough to denature glucoamylase if you're counting on extended conversion during ferment.

[Jimbo]

Where did you get that from 3Dog? It would have to be ridiculously alkaline for 6 tsp to have that impact on 6 gal, and I cant find any evidence that it raises pH. If anything the more rigorous fermentation will require extra buffers to keep the pH up, as Ive read on some wine sites just now. If you measured that reaction, what water are you using. If its distilled or RO it will have no buffering minerals left so more apt to swing all over

[3d0g]

First-hand experience Jimbo. Happened to a mash yesterday.

[Jimbo]

Strange. Havent had that happen and used Fermax plenty. In fact just did a bourbon run today with the mash helped along with Fermax.

I havent measured pH on anything in a while, Ill check the next one. But if it shot up like that, the stuff would be wreaking havoc industry wide. Spirits and Wine producers use it all over.

[3d0g]

Mash was 100% flaked rye. My water has a bicarbonate (HCO3) of 109 ppm so it's relatively hard.

I did see reports of wineries anticipating pH increase with Fermax use. It probably isn't a problem as the yeast will drive pH down rapidly. Wineries aren't relying on amylase conversions, of course.

[moosemilk]

Excellent thread, Jimbo. When I did my first booners, I posted about the ferment having a rotten egg type smell after a day, then a day later it would go away. pH and all were bang on, so left nutes as the problem. The extra day for some yeast to die and others become the little cannibals they are would explain why the smell would clear and the ferment finish off. I typically add Inositol and a little dap, but was out at the time (for those that don't know, inositol is a b vitamin typically found at GNC, and really helpful with yeast reproduction...for us, it's a fat emulsifier used in training)

[shadylane]

I'm not convinced that all grain converted with enzymes is nutritionally deficient, when compared to using malt.
But, failure hurts my feelings. That's why I use a pugidog "yeast bomb" and crushed oyster shells on all my ferments.

[skow69]

OK, I've discovered one complicating factor with Fermax - it raises pH. 6 gallon Mash with a pH of 4.9 shot up to 6.5 after adding the recommended 6 teaspoons. That's enough to denature glucoamylase if you're counting on extended conversion during ferment.

So give it a teaspoon of citric acid and it's cured. No big deal. Also I believe you're better off to feed the Fermax in 3 doses as the ferment progresses, rather than all up front. And I use about half that amount with great results.

[3d0g]

So give it a teaspoon of citric acid and it's cured. No big deal. Also I believe you're better off to feed the Fermax in 3 doses as the ferment progresses, rather than all up front. And I use about half that amount with great results.

Of course skow, but I wasn't expecting it so I'm just passing along the info. I actually did an overnight amylase rest so conversion was well complete in my case. Last 100% rye mash took 9 days to ferment out. I'd like to see that much closer to 4. Hope Fermax does the trick...

[skow69]

OK gotcha. Good luck with the Fermax on rye.

[Jimbo]

Rye sucks.

That is all.

... actually my issues with rye are no doubt operator error. Rye is HIGH in glucans and needs gluconase, or a steam powered still.

[3d0g]

Rye is HIGH in glucans and needs gluconase, or a steam powered still.

SEBflo TL. Don't leave home without it.

[Jimbo]

I have Seb HT and SebSuper. Super is a blend of enzymes, incl gluc, but it didnt touch my S3, which was only 20 or 30% rye. Could be my element was gettin dicey and spent too. Shit I dunno. Ill take another whack at it

[3d0g]

Done two 100% rye mashes now and both have been pretty manageable. 23l mash with 4.5kg flaked rye. I bring the water down to a 6 pH with lactic and dough in at 80C. Immediately hit the mash with SEBstar HTL. 90 minutes of periodic power drill torture and it drops to under 65C. Another dose of lactic to get things in the 5 range and in goes the SEBamyl GL. More drill torture and once the temp drops below 60C, I hit the mash with a double-sized dose of SEBflo TL. In less than 30 seconds the whole bucket liquifies and my drill does a sigh of relief. Both SEBamyl and SEBflo continue to work down to 30C so I just let the mash rest overnight.

[skow69]

I wondered what the TL was for. I bought a bottle with my first order, but never figured out what to do with it.

[3d0g]

Liking the results with Fermax so far. Didn't pull a hydrometer sample but I took a peek this morning @ 48 hours and the ferment looks to be winding down.

[Jimbo]

Id like to see Rad post up here. From what I recall he put a lot of effort into achieving strong ferments in sugar washes. I think he got his ferments down to 21 minutes LOL

[rad14701]

Id like to see Rad post up here. From what I recall he put a lot of effort into achieving strong ferments in sugar washes. I think he got his ferments down to 21 minutes LOL

Close, but not quite...

I'll be doing some sweetfeed in the very near future, but not as an All Grain... Got enough for one batch while I was farm-sitting a few weeks ago...

[Jimbo]

Rad, what's your go to nutrient recipe these days for thin mashes?

[rad14701]

Rad, what's your go to nutrient recipe these days for thin mashes?

Epsom Salt, 30-10-10, and multivitamins are my regular go to nutrients... It's just about time to do another round of experiments... Considering the amount of bee pollen I have on hand it may be included in testing...