Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

[S-Cackalacky]

With all due respect, I think y'all are missing the point. First, Tom wasn't trying to start a commercial distillery. He clearly stated in his earlier posts on the subject that he wanted to get a permit just to be legal. He said that he had no plans to SELL what he made. He only wanted to operate legally, pay the required taxes on what he made and drink it himself. The irony of the whole thing is that he has no way to comply with the law and pay the required taxes in order to practice his hobby. The gooberment has essentially said that, if you want to do it, you will need to do it illegally and we will be after you to inflict harsh penalties if you do so. That is, they won't allow you to pay taxes on it and drink it yourself.

Funny thing is - with the fuel alcohol permit, you can make ethanol (10,000 gallons/year) and you can store it on your property without denaturing it and without paying any taxes on it, but if a drop of it passes your lips, you are committing a felony. So, what's up with that - it's OK to use it one way, but not another? If I put it in my car, no taxes, not penalty. If I put the same alcohol in my mouth, I'm committing a felony. What's the warped logic in that?

Seems to me that it isn't about the taxes at all. What other commodity has a tax on its manufacture? Any other commodity has the tax levied at the point of sale. The tax is simply a way to control how the product is utilized. The tax is an extension of prohibition and a control mechanism for the market carved out by the big boys.

OK, I'm done.

[John Barleycorn]

If I put it in my car, no taxes, not penalty. If I put the same alcohol in my mouth, I'm committing a felony.

THAT is very well said, SC! Even a politician should be able to understand it.

[woodshed]

The fuel permit was created and is issued to "reduce our dependency on foreign oil". Government words not mine.
Agreed SC. Just does not make sense. Not taxing the production of fuel is supposed to be the incentive.

[woodshed]

"We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for the people of good conscience to remain silent".
Thomas Jefferson

[wv_cooker]

Well my post got misunderstood all to hell. Rather than try to explain and get into another off topic discussion, please just accept my apologies and let's get back to trying to legalize the hobby!

[tcowdrey]

Gentlemen,
I am really sorry I mentioned the permit business since it has caused so much misunderstanding and off topic conversation. I hope this ends the confusion and the discussion. I got an AFP, located in my garage in August 2013. There was no mention of distance from my residence in the application. I figured what the hell, if I could get an AFP, why not go for the DSP? My house is in a mostly agricultural area of the county where home businesses are permitted - to be sure I called the county zoning office and explained exactly what I wanted to do and was given the OK. I also called the VA ABC agent for my area and explained to him what I wanted to do. He said if it was permissible in the county it was fine with the state. I explained to the TTB that I had an 8 gallon still and could produce no more than 1 gallon of 95% ABV per week. I figured that since my garage (apparently the official definition is a shed) was good enough for an AFP, it should be good enough for a DSP. Apparently not. End of story.

Now back to the topic at hand. We would like to see everyone join the Hobby Distiller's Association to show support for our cause. Of course we need as much money as possible to offset the cost of the lobbyists, however if you don't want to join, please sign up as a supporter. The next thing is to contact your congressional senators and district representative. It is important that when this topic comes up in DC, your elected officials know what people are talking about and remembers that you, their constituent, is in favor of this legislative change. Another thing that has very positive results is go online and look up your congressional representative's local offices. Most have several local offices scattered around their district and you may find one only minutes from your home or office. Make an appointment or just drop by with a copy of the proposal. Sit down with them and explain what we are trying to do. They are paid as constituent representatives and will listen to you. Ask them to pass the proposal to their congressman/woman and request a response. If you don't hear from them in two weeks call them on the phone. Follow-up is key.

Another thing you can do is Phone a Friend (remember the TV show Who Wants to be a Millionaire). Or in today's word Text a Friend or Email a Friend. We all know family or high school / college buddies in other states who might be willing to help. Ask them to check out the HDA website, download the proposal and send it to their congressional representatives. If you would like help composing a letter to your congressman, send me a PM and I'll be happy to help. Lets git'er done. Thanks for everyone's support. Tom

[HDNB]

I'm not a US resident but i sympathize with your plight.

are there no lawyers in this group? it seems to me the fastest way to get where you want to go is challenge in court; take a Florida shiner that has been charged and is willing to fight, and rally around him. get him enough money to hire the best lawyers and fight based on high level legislation - the bill of rights or UN human rights.
governments can't risk a judge siding with a layman at this level. with a good argument and enough money to persist you get the charges "stayed" or "dismissed" and....once it gets tossed out of the court, you have a precedent that anyone charged in the future can simply quote the precedent. and the government can simply go on oppressing the population in other ways. a win -win.

obviously not as simple as my two line monologue, but trying to get a politician to change existing legislation (especially one that MAY reduce taxation) is going to be much more difficult and time consuming. it will be much easier to encourage them (politicians) to create MORE taxation by issuance of licenses and permits, which i think most hobbyists would be willing to pay to be "legal" and even increase the penalties for selling (which the true artisan distiller isn't doing - right??)

the answer to 9 out of 10 questions is money. for example:

if the average souse swills down 1L a week, and the tax on this is 12$/L, Lobby for an annual permit that costs more than that. add in an admin fee... lobby for an increase in legislation to increase (decrease? i don't know your laws) the penalty for selling un-taxed likker to 100 grand and take away a couple of birthdays. likely enough deterrent for most sane people- I know that would do it for me!!

sounds easy if you say it quick.

cheers.

[HDNB]

Funny thing is - with the fuel alcohol permit, you can make ethanol (10,000 gallons/year) and you can store it on your property without denaturing it and without paying any taxes on it, but if a drop of it passes your lips, you are committing a felony. So, what's up with that - it's OK to use it one way, but not another? If I put it in my car, no taxes, not penalty. If I put the same alcohol in my mouth, I'm committing a felony. What's the warped logic in that?

just got an image of a guy being led away in handcuffs after sucking too hard on a siphon hose sticking out of his E-85 flex fuel Ford

[S-Cackalacky]

Funny thing is - with the fuel alcohol permit, you can make ethanol (10,000 gallons/year) and you can store it on your property without denaturing it and without paying any taxes on it, but if a drop of it passes your lips, you are committing a felony. So, what's up with that - it's OK to use it one way, but not another? If I put it in my car, no taxes, not penalty. If I put the same alcohol in my mouth, I'm committing a felony. What's the warped logic in that?

just got an image of a guy being led away in handcuffs after sucking too hard on a siphon hose sticking out of his E-85 flex fuel Ford

Yep, the whole point of the current tax laws related to spirits is no different than the 18th amendment - an attempt to legislate human behavior. It's also an end run around the 21st amendment which repealed the 18th and gave ALL regulatory authority to the individual states.

If that same fuel was denatured with something like gasoline, it would be OK. Being killed is better than tax evasion.

[HDNB]

just had another thought (a wondrous rarity)

if you get a (free, cheap?? you can get these in USA?) fuel permit, and label all of you makin's as "denatured alcohol fuel" and label it with poison skull and crossbones...does that not keep you inside the existing legislation?

you know it's ok to consume, and yer not selling it so...who is to know otherwise?

IF you get busted and IF they test it in a lab, the results will show some amount of high alcohols, i.e. the "methanol" you used to denature it... so it's fuel right? would that not keep you outta the hoosegow?

even Denali distilling's exotic labels could use the tag line "get yer motor runnin' "!

or am i missing the point?

[jholmz]

just had another thought (a wondrous rarity)

if you get a (free, cheap?? you can get these in USA?) fuel permit, and label all of you makin's as "denatured alcohol fuel" and label it with poison skull and crossbones...does that not keep you inside the existing legislation?

you know it's ok to consume, and yer not selling it so...who is to know otherwise?

IF you get busted and IF they test it in a lab, the results will show some amount of high alcohols, i.e. the "methanol" you used to denature it... so it's fuel right? would that not keep you outta the hoosegow?

even Denali distilling's exotic labels could use the tag line "get yer motor runnin' "!

or am i missing the point?

denatured by definition is undrinkable. when you get a fuel permit you are allowing the feds to come on your property at any time without notice or warrant to inspect said property to make sure your within the law. if its labeled denatured and its tested and its drinkable its the same as making untaxed drinkin liquor. just having a fuel permit will not allow you to skirt the laws

[Snuffy-ga]

and so the HDA is still looking for additional members.

[S-Cackalacky]

As stated before, perfectly willing to donate the $30 anonymously, but there doesn't appear to be a way to do that. I'm willing to do most anything except put my name on a list.

[S-Cackalacky]

just had another thought (a wondrous rarity)

if you get a (free, cheap?? you can get these in USA?) fuel permit, and label all of you makin's as "denatured alcohol fuel" and label it with poison skull and crossbones...does that not keep you inside the existing legislation?

you know it's ok to consume, and yer not selling it so...who is to know otherwise?

IF you get busted and IF they test it in a lab, the results will show some amount of high alcohols, i.e. the "methanol" you used to denature it... so it's fuel right? would that not keep you outta the hoosegow?

even Denali distilling's exotic labels could use the tag line "get yer motor runnin' "!

or am i missing the point?

denatured by definition is undrinkable. when you get a fuel permit you are allowing the feds to come on your property at any time without notice or warrant to inspect said property to make sure your within the law. if its labeled denatured and its tested and its drinkable its the same as making untaxed drinkin liquor. just having a fuel permit will not allow you to skirt the laws

Doesn't need to be denatured if it stays on your property. And, I kinda question that whole thing about the feds being able to come on your property. I don't believe they can enter your residence unless it it is being used to perform any part of the process. That is, if you store, ferment, distill in a separate building, they would only require entry into THAT building - not your private residence.

[rad14701]

Doesn't need to be denatured if it stays on your property. And, I kinda question that whole thing about the feds being able to come on your property. I don't believe they can enter your residence unless it it is being used to perform any part of the process. That is, if you store, ferment, distill in a separate building, they would only require entry into THAT building - not your private residence.

The entire physical address becomes legally searchable, not just the outbuilding described in the paperwork submitted... It's covered in the TTB's legal-eze... Hence the rationale to have a totally separate property for alcohol production...

[S-Cackalacky]

Doesn't need to be denatured if it stays on your property. And, I kinda question that whole thing about the feds being able to come on your property. I don't believe they can enter your residence unless it it is being used to perform any part of the process. That is, if you store, ferment, distill in a separate building, they would only require entry into THAT building - not your private residence.

The entire physical address becomes legally searchable, not just the outbuilding described in the paperwork submitted... It's covered in the TTB's legal-eze... Hence the rationale to have a totally separate property for alcohol production...

Don't remember reading anything like that, but will go back and read again. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Jasper]

Any specific updates from the lobbyist or marketing firm efforts?

[Brewhaus]

I contacted the lobbyist this morning for an update. They are putting together a one page document that outlines everything so that they can get the points across to our representatives and hopefully rebut the myths before those questions arise.

[whiskeytripping]

Id say your better off taking that 30$ and buying a sack of corn and some sugar and doing something about it. Sending it to lobbiest is a total waste

[Brewhaus]

Actually, I received confirmation today that a bit of headway is already being made, and I was able to get outside information supporting that. That information will be in the members area of the HDA website tonight.

[Jasper]

Why only share that info with current members? Seems like you could get even more support if people see real progress...

[whiskeytripping]

+1 jasper, its best to keep it like scientology, you have to pay the money to find out the secret

[varocketry]

S-Cackalacky:

They do have a better way sign-up now which I used to contribute. Paypal.
When the HDA site asks for name and address just make up something reasonable.

[S-Cackalacky]

Good luck with it - last post here.

[woodshed]

Good luck with it - last post here.

Yep.

[Brewhaus]

Why only share that info with current members? Seems like you could get even more support if people see real progress...

Members have to receive some benefit beyond the warm fuzzy feeling of helping the cause. Given that all HDA efforts at this point must go toward pushing for legalization there is no time left to offer any other benefits right now. Once this (hopefully) gets pushed through, then the HDA can take on more 'regular' association activities, and members will gain other benefits.

Don't forget that this push is expected to cost between $35,000 and $40,000. I am backing it to make sure that it is followed through, and does not fall flat. The only way to help lower that cost is through membership, so we need as much as possible coming in from membership dues. AND, we need a strong showing to Congress. An association with two members because we are 'giving the milk for free' does not show that we have any support. We need people to sign up. We are making headway. But, we cannot do it alone.

[jarheadshiner]

Id say your better off taking that 30$ and buying a sack of corn and some sugar and doing something about it. Sending it to lobbiest is a total waste

What is buying a sack of corn and sugar gonna do to help legalize anything? Comments like that don't help anything. If you have a legitimate suggestion I am all ears? Not just for HDA but any at all.

[tcowdrey]

Funny thing is - with the fuel alcohol permit, you can make ethanol (10,000 gallons/year) and you can store it on your property without denaturing it and without paying any taxes on it, but if a drop of it passes your lips, you are committing a felony. So, what's up with that - it's OK to use it one way, but not another? If I put it in my car, no taxes, not penalty. If I put the same alcohol in my mouth, I'm committing a felony. What's the warped logic in that?

S-Cackalacky,
From what I have seen with the fuel permit, the rules are much more relaxed than with a DSP. Maybe it is because they have not had since 1920 to perfect them. You file a required form once a year that lists how many gallons of fuel you made, how many were denatured, and that is about it. No records required, just your word on how much you produced and it is up to you to report it accurately and truthfully. It's pretty simple. You are supposed to store it in a designated storage area. I store my in my lawn mower shed(at 90/95%) ABV until I am ready to use it (in the lawn mower of course). I love your comment that if you put it in your car or truck, no tax no foul, but if it gets to your lips you are a felon. I am old enough to remember when Jackie Gleason used to say "Up to the lips and over the gums, watch out stomach, here it comes." Somehow that seems appropriate here. Tom

[Jasper]

Why only share that info with current members? Seems like you could get even more support if people see real progress...

Members have to receive some benefit beyond the warm fuzzy feeling of helping the cause. Given that all HDA efforts at this point must go toward pushing for legalization there is no time left to offer any other benefits right now. Once this (hopefully) gets pushed through, then the HDA can take on more 'regular' association activities, and members will gain other benefits.

Don't forget that this push is expected to cost between $35,000 and $40,000. I am backing it to make sure that it is followed through, and does not fall flat. The only way to help lower that cost is through membership, so we need as much as possible coming in from membership dues. AND, we need a strong showing to Congress. An association with two members because we are 'giving the milk for free' does not show that we have any support. We need people to sign up. We are making headway. But, we cannot do it alone.

I totally understand that - and i support your efforts (through friends - i am too chicken to put my own name down). I just think that showing people you are for real would garner 10 times more support than all the 'advertising' you have done so far on forums and the like. This thread is 11 pages long and there are, obviously, a lot of people interested... but there are A LOT more on the fence about it. If you ask me you need to show actual results to get these people interested and keep this thing moving forward. If you just keep saying 'there is progress - but i cant tell you what unless you join' you will have very little progress. To put it in perspective - would you buy much of anything ($30 price point) based on blind faith? Or would you rather see some sort of indication of performance (testimonials, product reviews, word of mouth, etc.)?

Like i said - i am all for your efforts. But i just think at this stage of the game you need to think fundraiser - not a business or club. Information is power in this type of pursuit and the PUBLIC needs to be on your side. I like where it is going - but currently you are not the AHA - not even close so please don't pretend to be (that can come later).

Also i guarantee that most (if not all) of your current members don't give a rat's a$$ about special treatment because they payed money... they just want to see things changed.

[Brewhaus]

I don't think that lack of registered members has anything to do with what is or is not being shown publicly, but more a matter of people's concern over anonymity given the legality of the industry. If someone sincerely believes that we are just blowing smoke, then making updates available publicly could just as easily be viewed the same way. I do see where you are coming from, and was originally tempted to make the information publicly accessible, but I don't think that will really sway anyone.