Vapor management take off rates question

[copperlover1]

Ok. Everything is put back together and cleaned. Now I need some help driving this thing. I am getting no better out put. About 1 qt per hour at 80% abv. I got a little less with 90+% abv with the 1" valve. What am I doing wrong?

[copperlover1]

Correction. 1 qt per hour at 90% abv.

[Jacksonbrown]

In answer to the original Q -

"So what can I change to get a better take off rate?"

If you increase the take off rate with out changing anything else all your doing is playing with the RR and your ABV will just drop.
Assuming this isn't what you were after and you actually wanted to maintain high ABV but increases the take of rate then need more power and a more efficient column.

You could try extending your column from 2' and putting more heat in the bottom.
If you column starts flooding then you've reached the limit of 2" with your packing of choice so time to go to 3" maybe.

Your still head design wasn't the problem.

Out of interest, your taking 1 quart an hour out, do you know how much comes out if you pull out the RC and cap the top?

[copperlover1]

I do not know yet. But I have about 25 lbs of malted barley to work thru so I should have that info in a few weeks.

[skow69]

1. What position is the valve in? Gate valve or ball?

2. Are you still running the gas valve at 1/4? What burner do you have? Brand and model or specs would be nice. It never hurts to shoot a picture, too.

3. How tall is the packed length of the column?

4. Are you still packing with ss scrubbies? How tight are they? (Do a breathe test.) What do they weigh? Shoot a picture.

5. How long do hold full reflux before collecting? What is the temp?

We can get you a reasonable production rate now, but we need to know everything about the still and how you run it. You're almost home free, man. If you're like most guys, we'll find out you need to improve your packing and give her some more power and you'll be kickin' ass and takin' names.

Skol,
skow

[copperlover1]

Ok sounds great. This site is truly the best.

No valve. I went with the sliding reflux condenser.i pulled it up just to get drips and pulls off foreshore and than heads. Than back down to restableize. Than wide open for the run.
Bayou classic 55000 btu. I was running it between 1/4 and 1/3 open.
24" Coloum . SS scrubies. Tight but you can breathe thru it with out too much trouble.
I hold reflux about 15 minutes. Temp 170 F.
I will try for better pics when I get my iPad back. I am working with my kids iPod touch now. Way to small and fingers way to big

[skow69]

Sounds like time to crank 'er up. More heat --> more vapor --> more product. The limiting factor being flood stage.

If the purity is not acceptable then you can try equilibrating longer or packing in more scrubbies. Most of us pack the column too loosely. The old rule of thumb for column height was 20 to 30 times diameter, so you are a little short, but that was before SPP. Dad or Odin could tell us for sure, but I've seen guys report azeo with similar dimensions. Others say lava rock is just as good or better. And rad is working miracles with marbles. So there are lots of options, at some point you just have to pick one and give it a test drive. It can be frustrating, but it's also part of the fun.

Good luck, and stay in touch.
skow

[Jacksonbrown]

That sounds like 4 to 5 times more power than my 2" column can handle.
I have a sight glass so can see what's going on but under those conditions my column would be completely flooded and what comes out the PC is actually overflowing reflux.
Is there a lot of bubbling and gurgling going on when you run?
Can you sustain 100%RR for more than 15min at that power level? It might take more than that for the reflux to back up.

[copperlover1]

How does the height of the coloumn affect the take off rate? I have lots of 2" copper so I will make a new coloumn that's 40" tall. And pack it tighter with the scrubies. Will look into making some spp because that looks like fun too. I had my ear to it the whole time. I could hear something but not sure what. Might have been gurgle or rumble from the keg.

[T-Pee]

I had my ear to it the whole time. I could hear something but not sure what. Might have been gurgle or rumble from the keg.

Uh-huh. Probably your blistering ear falling off.

tp

[Kegg_jam]

Wish I'd a seen this post sooner. Built my ccvm with a reducer (well 2 actually) from 1.5" to .5" straight off the T, then .5" 90 to Liebig. That's what I had on hand. Gonna have to get me 1.5" 90 and see if that helps. Slow'ish take off but not all that different from doing a slow spirit run with the pot still and way better product (if going for neutral). Might be a shotgun in my future. Good thing I like building 'bout as much as stillin. Well maybe not, but I do like makin stuff.

[rad14701]

How does the height of the coloumn affect the take off rate? I have lots of 2" copper so I will make a new coloumn that's 40" tall. And pack it tighter with the scrubies. Will look into making some spp because that looks like fun too.

A taller column will stack better which allows for slightly faster take off rates without sacrificing purity... This can only be optimized so far before resulting in diminished returns... This is all covered in the theories and fundamentals for reflux columns...

[still_stirrin]

...Bayou classic 55000 btu.....running it between 1/4 and 1/3 open...

OK, 1/4 of 55000 BTUs is 13750 (as if that is a real possibility because those BTU ratings are often overstated).

But 13750 BTU/hr is just a touch over 4kW (4030 W). Like jacksonbrowne said, that should be way more power than you need for a 2" column in reflux. I run mine around 1 to 1.2 kW when stabilized. So you must have a bunch of condensate running back down the column if you're takeoff rate is so slow. Dads CCVM design is real good at knocking down the vapor too so it isn't surprising if the RR is higher than you think.

Also, I'm surprised that you don't get azeo out of it if that's the case.

ss

[Kegg_jam]

Ok, shadylane's idea and picture had me thinking.

what if you made a cold finger to fit in the reducer and it would be able to move up and down as the condenser is moved.

i attached a picture but this is my first try so hopefully it will load.

[thatguy1313]

Most of the vapors will condense before the centering ring and the coldfinger/ centering ring creates a choke point for the remaining vapors. Try making the tail of the condenser a little longer than usual and also as pointed as possible. That made a big difference in mine. You should be pulling a quart of 80% every 20 minutes with a column that size. Maybe try lava rock. It's cheap as hell and works great in my column broken into penny/dime size pieces.

[Jacksonbrown]

Ok, shadylane's idea and picture had me thinking.

what if you made a cold finger to fit in the reducer and it would be able to move up and down as the condenser is moved.

i attached a picture but this is my first try so hopefully it will load.

Not sure what the point would be? It would run very similar to just making it 1" all the way through only with a lot of added build complexity.

[Kegg_jam]

Ok, shadylane's idea and picture had me thinking.

what if you made a cold finger to fit in the reducer and it would be able to move up and down as the condenser is moved.

i attached a picture but this is my first try so hopefully it will load.

Not sure what the point would be? It would run very similar to just making it 1" all the way through only with a lot of added build complexity.

That's why I'm a novice. Says so in my profile. Picture was sure nifty tho.

[Jacksonbrown]

Great picture

[thatguy1313]

Picture had me a little concerned at first glance! Thought I might be on the wrong forum

[copperlover1]

There is no valve in the take off arm on the CCVM . If the RC doesn't block off the take off arm you won't stop the vapor from going out.

[copperlover1]

I am not sure if I like the CCVM . So I am working on a 2" valve with easy flanges. I can put in line for neutral. And take out for pot still. And it's 2" so I can still work on my take off speed issues.

[thatguy1313]

To give you something to compare to (sort of) I have a 2" CCVM that's got about 40" packed with lava rock. Notes from last run of BW say 93% at a quart every 23 minutes on average. There's nothing wrong with the design. Keep at it. You'll figure it out.

[copperlover1]

I am going to make a taller column first. And test that. The 2" valve is really just for fun.

[thatguy1313]

Experimentation is what makes this hobby as fun as it is!

[skow69]

How does the height of the coloumn affect the take off rate? I have lots of 2" copper so I will make a new coloumn that's 40" tall. And pack it tighter with the scrubies. Will look into making some spp because that looks like fun too. I had my ear to it the whole time. I could hear something but not sure what. Might have been gurgle or rumble from the keg.

There's nothing wrong with a little gurgling in the column. Have you seen what the Russians are doing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHlcbAZIfyg

You can bet there is some gurgling going on there. I think it started with SPP but now you can see them running like that with everything from chunks of glass tubes to seashells. They talk about maintaining an "aquatic environment." I'm not sure I understand it entirely. Odin has talked about it some. I went snooping around a Russian distiller's forum looking for info, but that would take a serious investment of time. Google translate is a great tool, but it has limitations. Do we have any Russian speakers in the crowd who would like to check that out? Here is a link to get started with: http://www.homedistiller.ru/. [Nice name, eh?]

Anyway, I think we get a little paranoid about flooding sometimes, which is understandable because it is so hard to tell what is going on inside a column without visual access. That is, up to the point where wash starts pouring out, like Jackson said. Then it becomes perfectly obvious, but slightly too late.

[Kegg_jam]

Is it even possible to flood a ccvm?

Was thinking by the time flooding became evident it would have to drain out the take off anyway.

Least that's what I was a thinkin

[rad14701]

Is it even possible to flood a ccvm?

Was thinking by the time flooding became evident it would have to drain out the take off anyway.

Least that's what I was a thinkin

That would still be choking and flooding, just not as potentially catastrophic is flooding out the top of the still...

[skow69]

I'm not sure I use the same definition of flooding as others do. I was always unsure of exactly what it meant, then I saw the Russians running their "aquatic environment" and started running my column like that. Now I don't consider it flooded until it does just what you said, and liquid comes out the takeoff arm instead of vapor, or liquid rises to the tee with the valve closed. But sure, you can flood a CCVM. I do not run a CCVM so I will defer to someone with real-life experience, but it appears to me that with the reflux condenser raised up it's just like a valved VM with the valve open, with the RC down it should behave just like a closed valve. But I think you can flood any column if you just feed it more power than it can handle.

[skow69]

Kegg_jam, I reread your post. I see what you meant, that you wouldn't call it flooded until it blew out the top. I figure if the column is full of liquid to the tee, there is no mingling of liquid and vapor going on, so it's not working, and therefor flooded.

[Kegg_jam]

Yeah, I just meant that it wouldn't blow out the top. But I do understand that bad things would be happening in the column if driven to the point of choking. Sometimes I'm not as clear as I should be.

Oh, and it really was a question as I'm just learning this craft.