Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

[Mr B]

Thanks frozenthunderbolt, calcium carbonate definitively does the trick.

Boy I'm impressed with this recipe, as others have said it motors, I've been stirring and adjusting PH to 4.5 periodically, hope it continues at this pace

Re. the reuse of the yeast, do I just add it to my next wash instead of a 1/4 cup of new distillers yeast or is there anything else I have to take into account, do all my other ingredients remain the same as if it was a new wash, I read this thread twice now and didn't find anything specific about the reuse of my yeast.

Cheers
Mr B

[Mr B]

I managed to find my answers here http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =39&t=5240, thanks.

[Stilly]

Did a couple buckets of this recently. One was done with Red Star bakers yeast and the other one with Super Start. I followed Wineos recipe exactly. The bucket with Super Start stalled at 1.035 for a couple days. I finally tossed in a couple grams of Fermaid nutrients and it started back up and finished in another 7 days.

Very nice recipe for neutral, thank you
cheers
stilly

[Boda Getta]

This is my first neutral sugar wash and I had high hopes. I followed Wineo's recipe to the t, except I didn't have citrus acid and i used lemon juice. I made a 24 gal batch so multiplied everything by 4 and followed the directions. The SG was 1.07 I sprinkled the cup of distillers yeast (1/4C/6 gals) and waited 30 min's, then stirred the wash really well. In just a few hours and it had a really frothy head on it. In about 24 hours, the head and dropped and I can see no bubbling or any signs its working off. I couldn't find my PH test strips; I did have a UJSSM stall once and added baking soda and got it started back up. I went ahead and added a heaping teaspoon of baking soda, with no results. The daytime temp was around 84 during the day and 75'ish at night.
I would appreciate any help in getting this wash started up.

Thanking y'all in advance for any assistance.

BG

[Odin]

Boda,

Some yeast nutrients, maybe?

Odin.

[rad14701]

boda getta, some folks have decent luck with this recipe while others struggle hopelessly... If it doesn't work for you then try another...

[frozenthunderbolt]

If it makes you feel betta Boda, i can't make this work either! Go birdwatchers - it's kick ass!

[McNealious]

Hey everyone first time posting in the forum and basically im a total noob just got started with the hobby without knowing anything about it since my friend is letting me use his equipment while he is away. Had first run with turbo yeast since i didnt know any better and now i am giving wineos wash a go for my second attempt. i followed everything as directed in 6 gallon bucket and has been bubbling steady for about 7 days and then stopped had SG of about 1.066 and now it is about 1.2 i have no way to test PH at the moment so i was wondering if it safe to toss in some more distillers yeast and DAP and if so how much would be appropriate?

[Dnderhead]

"now it is about 1.2 " that cant be right..its got to be 1.02 or 1.002

[McNealious]

"now it is about 1.2 " that cant be right..its got to be 1.02 or 1.002

ah yea sorry about that stupid mistake its 1.02 should i just let it sit few more days and see what happens or what?

[ginjo]

boda getta, some folks have decent luck with this recipe while others struggle hopelessly... If it doesn't work for you then try another...

I have to sort of disagree with this. Better in my opinion to discover what wasn't right and correct it. If you just try new recipes that have a lot of different variables, you won't learn anything and you won't progress in your knowledge.

What is so often overlooked in so many 'recipes' is the water you use. There are many minerals that have a profound effect on the pH at the start, active ferm, and finish. These are both in your water to start and in the 'recipe.' In short, you need to have a rough idea of what's in your water. Consult the myriad of examples in the beer forums. That's what yer makin' - beer. Just sugar and water to start, so you are in a more well controlled but initially deprived situation. You are doing a laboratory fermentation with pure sugar washes, birdwatchers or otherwise. Yer looking for lack of fermentation byproducts, speed of fermentation, and attenuation. With sugar washes, you are in the realm where science dominates over the art.

The way to manage things is predominantly twofold. Mineral buffering and yeast nutrients. Mineral buffering means that you have enough ions in solution so that the initail pH is acceptable, and that yeast action (particularly carbonic acid/CO2 production) doesn't drop the pH too low as the fermentation gets going. So, you want both and acid and base addition. I'd think that citric acid and some sort of carbonate/bicarbonate are good combos... maybe potassium carbonate? If you start with distilled/RO/DI water, you can build things as you see fit. If yer water is super hard, that usually means that there is a lot of alkalinity (carb/bicarb) in solution, so you might be able to leave out that addition. You WANT hard water for brewing. It's just that you want the hardness (Ca/Mg) to be balanced with sulphate or chloride, not bicarbonate as is usually the case with most water supplies.

Yeast nutes are another part of the story. Water (with the right minerals or not) is not likely to have any nitrogen reserves for the yeast, which it needs. This is the point of adding fermaid/DAP/yeasthulls/etc. I would imagine that the tom paste in the birdwatchers is adding both an acid for pH buffer down, and an N source. With wineos, it's more out in the open.

IF you start with pure water, you need a pH buffer (acid and base), a nitrogen source, and a micronutirent source (zinc is commonly not in abundance). If you have no idea about your source water, you are guaranteed to be somewhat in the dark. Your water is part of the recipe.

[rad14701]

boda getta, some folks have decent luck with this recipe while others struggle hopelessly... If it doesn't work for you then try another...

I have to sort of disagree with this. Better in my opinion to discover what wasn't right and correct it. If you just try new recipes that have a lot of different variables, you won't learn anything and you won't progress in your knowledge.

This idea is all well and good if you have enough basic knowledge to go about debunking things... However, for a novice distiller who has never fermented anything this can be a daunting task and is forcing them to delve deeper into the recipe phase than they should be required to at such an early stage in the hobby... My comment should be read more as trying another simple sugar wash recipe that garners success and confidence and then come back to WPOSW at a later date should they choose to do so... I'd hate to see recipe frustration scare someone away from the hobby when there are other virtually foolproof alternatives... WPOSW is essentially a chemical based wash and the sourced ingredients can vary widely so I'd suspect that as well as water quality they can contribute to success or failure... I would not consider this to be a first go-round recipe...

Hope that clears things up, ginjo...

[ginjo]

I understand where you're coming from rad. A lot of my discussion was for readers of the thread who were not beginners. In 41 pages there are a lot of peeps who have a good amount of knowledge. However, the simple fact remains that water is an ingredient, and far and away the largest portion. It matters. And it isn't trivial to start with sucrose and an unknown water chemistry and get it to fully attenuate. In that regard, none of the sucrose/water-type washes are beginner washes. Barley malt or extract are probably the easiest/simplest washes to make.

If you compare snow-melt reservoir water to well water, it's not too difficult to see why washes made from them could behave very differently. I don't think that beginners need to understand the ins and outs of water chemistry to have good success. If you're just making batches in 5gal buckets, it might be very easy to get enough RO or distilled water and a teaspoon of gypsum. If you don't start with ingredients you understand very well, you can use a brute force approach and measure/correct the pH on the fly. pH papers/strips should be in every beginner's arsenal. Just as valuable as a proof hydrometer, if not more so.

If we just want to treat the recipes as wholistic witches' brews, I can see some advantages there in terms of simplicity. In that case, however, there would be no point in having a thread about the recipe... one could just post their recipe and that would be the end of the discussion.

I think that if even beginner users have a rudimentary understanding of pH, the number that have success with the sugar/water-type washes would increase significantly.

[Oxbo Rene]

I just started 2-6 gal washes today, as per original recipe (minus citric acid) .....
I have been messing with the PH as it drops considerably after tossing yeast.
My observations -->
Water (well) = 5.2PH
Water with additives = PH 7
After tossing yeast and stirring = PH 5.2
Waiting 1/2 hr and stirring in yeast cake = PH 5
I expect it to drop more, will consider adding Calcium Carbonate when/if it stalls (which I have been experiencing).......

[Oxbo Rene]

Been three days now = still chuggin ........

[Oxbo Rene]

Been eight days now, burps have slowed to one every 30 sec.... SG = 1.050...
Added two heaping tbls of Sodium Bicarb (out of Calcium Carb) yesterday.....
Burping approx one burp every 5 sec now = happy .....

[bigbone32]

Hello. First time poster and new to home distilling. So far Im loving it! I'm surprised to say that the final product is only about 25% of the fun for me.

Anyway to stay on point, I live in Brazil and can only restock my hobby supplies a couple of times a year when Im back in the states. I am interested in this recipe and am limited on the ingredients. I do have a 1 lb pack of Hillbilly Stills distillers yeast nutrient w/ag and a small container of citric acid. The nutrient contains Diammonium Phosphate(DAP), Magnesium Sulphate(Epsom Salts), Magnesium Carbonate, Trace Minerals and vitamins.Looks like the only missing ingredient is Gypsum. The water I am using is bottled, supposedly, spring water. Finally getting to my question. Will the nutrient and citric acid be enough to make this recipe and have it turn out well? If so, how much of the nutrient should I use? Thanks in advance for the help and I look forward to your answers and thoughts.

BB

[whiskeytripping]

Welcome Bigbone, you mention that you have to get your supplies while your in the states?, you can do what you wish but if you were having problems locating these items you might want to check out the birdwatchers recipe. This one here's the only one I've ever made myself, I just had it stall on the last batch, dumped in the can of tomato paste, and BAM, it came back to life like I've never seen. Most of the items on the birdwatchers recipe you can buy in a grocery store. Just my suggestion. Either ways welcome and happy distilling

[moose11]

As per Wineo's first post, here's his recipe and instructions.

"This is for a 6 gallon wash.
8 pounds of sugar{dissolved in hot water}
1 tsp of citric acid
1 tsp of DAP
1 tsp of gypsum{You can get this from a beermaking supplier}
A pinch of epsom salts{Less than 1/8 of a tsp}
1/4 cup of distillers yeast,or 1/2 cup of bakers yeast{sprinkled on top}
Dissolve your sugar in hot water and mix until its dissolved real good.
Add the DAP,gypsum, acid and epsom salts,and stir until its all dissolved.
Add this to your fermenter,and add enough cool water to make 6 gallons.
The starting SG should be 1070-1080SG.Dont go over 1080SG for best results.
Check the temp,and once its 95f or under,sprinkle the yeast on top.
After 15-20 minutes,give it a good stir to mix things up,and get some air mixed in.You can cover the fermenter with a cloth,or use an airlock.
Depending on the fermenting temp,this will work off in a week or two.
Dont rush it.Let it finish to dryness,and give it another week to clear before running it. "

My first batch I couldn't find DAP, citric acid, or gypsum so I substituted a one a day vitamin for DAP, lemon juice for the citric acid, and passed on the gypsum altogether, I suspect the gypsum is to compensate for his water's makeup.
It worked out just fine, finishing in a week, cleared in another week.

[Ben the Stiller]

Do you have a recommended distiller's yeast and possible source?

thanks

[moose11]

I just used Fleischmann's quick rise bakers yeast, most tried and true recipes on this forum call for it and it's readily available at any grocery store, and works well with no off tastes like the dreaded turbo yeasts.

[poppasauce]

Wow, just finished reading almost 42 pages of posts on this thread, For a simple wash it gets awful complicated. Ive been doing this 20 years without caring about the wash, just waited 2 weeks and what ever happened i ran it and drank it.. Always turned out (turbo yeast & sugar) never measured or cared about anything, dont get me wrong i am sure there were tons of issues i just ignored. But now i turned a new leaf and am trying to care, fuck all of a sudden, it seem like rocket science. I am not sure who said it but sugar wash is more like science, it makes making beer look like child's play.

I think that the original WPOSW recipe should have included basic tools too like PH tester.... I am sure if we all had one, half of these posts would not be here. But don't get me wrong this is all great discussion. I currently am experiencing a nicely fermenting 50g batch, sg started at 1.110 and now is at 1.08 after 7 days, i am sure when i test the PH tonight after i buy strips ill find out the PH is LOW.

Anyway thanks everyone is one great topic, i know my next batch will be better than this one..

Cheers

[whiskeytripping]

I wonder what ever happened to Wineo, I noticed on another site no one had heard from him in awhile as well.

[monkeyshiner]

This is my first wash ever! Got all ingredients wineo said. Using ro/di water from my filter system with ph of 7.4. Got all mixed with starting sg of 1.07 and been sitting for 30 min and airlock bubbling like crazy. Hope i have good luck with this first wash!

[bigbone32]

Just had a 10 gallon wash finish in 30 hours. Started at 1.075 and finished at .990. They've been taking 5-6 days. I put an extra half cup of yeast in and stirred with circular paint stirrer for about 6 to 8 minutes. Amazng recipe.

[moose11]

Just had a 10 gallon wash finish in 30 hours. Started at 1.075 and finished at .990. They've been taking 5-6 days. I put an extra half cup of yeast in and stirred with circular paint stirrer for about 6 to 8 minutes. Amazng recipe.

30 hrs? holy shit! what was your wash temp when it was fermenting?

[lampshade]

Success, finally.

I found that if I add a tablespoon of potassium chloride (to raise the Ph and lower the acidity) that Wineos recipe works like a champ. I guess it's all in the water you have to work with. Also, adding a tablespoon of DAP the next day helps.

[SpeedGP]

This is my first wash too! I started it Sunday night and two days later still going strong! (about 2 blurps per second) The only thing I changed was 5 Gallon Carboy and I used Dextrose (per Brew Shop's suggestion).

What is the typical ABV after this is done? I was planning to use my hydrometer and test it tomorrow night.


Thanks!

SpeedGP

[moose11]

You've spent more on dextrose than what plain white sugar costs(which benefits the "brew shop"), the point of this wash is a cheap way to make some tasteless alcohol that you would later distill into a neutral or "vodka".
You should have taken an sg reading prior to pitching the yeast so that you could then calculate the difference between starting and finishing sg to get your abv.
I usually get 11-12% abv.

[SpeedGP]

Yeah, I kind of jumped into this a tad premature, but it's still a fun experiment and I figured the brew shop was trying to up-sell.

Do you think there will be much of a taste difference? I'm trying for the the perfect vodka

I'll do the SG on my next batch (whatever that may be)

THANKS!