I vote to "out" copper from the homedistillation process!

[multipazz]

I was watching some YouTube videos last night
I found something about still saftey,
but even me as a noob noticed some mistakes he was making
I will see if I can find the link later

anyway the guy was running a very basic pot still
basically a pressure cooker with a copper coil condenser

he ran a few cups of white vinegar through the still before his product
the purpose of this was to clean the copper

he said that he usually runs the still without cooling the condenser for the cleaning run
but for demonstration he added some coolant to collect the output instead of the steam venting

the vinegar came out the still blue :-(

I guess this would be in your product if you don't clean copper

now I don't know if what he is doing is right,
but it was interesting to see this demonstration


EDIT:
this is the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZakPUSVVKo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[rad14701]

multipazz, please tell me you aren't following the advice of that idiot in the video... He really doesn't know what he's doing... The blind leading the blind is no way to learn this hobby... Were you watching him taste high proof alcohol using a plastic spoon...???

Pure vinegar in an aluminum pressure cooker and copper worm... And he has some crazy story about it being needed every time you run the still... Aluminum and copper will produce that blue every time when exposed to pure vinegar - until it eats right through...

Forget you ever saw that video, or any others like it... You won't find any crappy advice like that here in these forums that hasn't been commented on and corrected...

[guittarmaster]

multipazz, please tell me you aren't following the advice of that idiot in the video... He really doesn't know what he's doing... The blind leading the blind is no way to learn this hobby... Were you watching him taste high proof alcohol using a plastic spoon...???

Pure vinegar in an aluminum pressure cooker and copper worm... And he has some crazy story about it being needed every time you run the still... Aluminum and copper will produce that blue every time when exposed to pure vinegar - until it eats right through...

Forget you ever saw that video, or any others like it... You won't find any crappy advice like that here in these forums that hasn't been commented on and corrected...

+1. The plastic hoses are a big no-no too!

[multipazz]

No absolutely not following this fool

I did say in my post that even me as a noob had spotted mistakes this guy was making
I saw the aluminium pot, I saw all the plastics

I was researching condensers and concentric coils how to wind them on youtube and the title "safety" caught my attention,
must admit i was thinking WTF most of the time during his presentation

I only brought this to the table as I saw the blue vinegar and didn't know what that was all about
I thought it may have some relevance in this thread, but clearly the whole presentation is a complete fail of epic proportions

I am still researching the hobby... my still has only been unboxed for a water cleaning run then packed away again
I now have a few litres of distilled water

I will post up my first run with pictures when I eventually do one.

[Odin]

I hate to stir up this wasp nest again. And I promise it will be my last post on this matter in this tread. But a member of another forum brought the following to my attention:

"Acid substances make copper compound even faster. Washes are acid. And many of us use backset from a copper boiler to make a next generation of UJ, SF, etc. Bigger copper (or copper compound) particles, that may not come over by vapour, may leach into next generations of UJ or SF. Now, since they will be redistilled in perfectly clean copper or glass or SS columns, there is no problem to us. But the copper build up may over time create problems for the yeast, over multiple generations."

Could this, apart from ph problems some face in UJ and SF, be the cause of deterioration over the generations as some experience? Asking, not saying.

Odin.

[Jimbo]

haha, who doesnt love a stimulating discussion,

http://www.molbiolcell.org/content/18/12/4741.abstract" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Im no microbiologist, but looks like Cu is beneficial to Saccharomyces cerevisiae at subtoxic levels.

[aj2456]

in regards to the last post i doubt it, i would guess that the yeast will absorb trace elements like copper, die and sink to the bottom and that should soak up some if not all of the copper, but probably wont help the health or yeast growth rates so maybe

but

i think since the deterioration has been noted in other brewing fields its probably the result of yeast mutations and poor management plus the build up of other bad bacteria and can be managed by acid washing and use of starters (which i doubt distillers can be bothered to do esp when it is small scale)

[coastershiner]

Wow. What a ton of conflicing information. Thank you odin for raising this issue, and thank you guitar master and eveyone else for your input. Pretty much all the reading I have done led me to belive the more copper the better. Untill I read dad300's thread on copper only used in asending path, and found my way here. A great read, even though it wont make me ditch any of my all copper stills. I hope one day someone gets their product anylzed from a lab. Hope they use an all copper, never cleaned rarely used still, and compare it to a shiney new one. That would be an interesting study.
this is an old thread, maybe someone already has?

[carbohydratesn]

I haven't read anything like that lately, so if anyone here has they've been keepin' secrets I'd love to see some data though.

I'm currently building a stainless bokakob head because of this thread and the other one on ethyl carbamate. It'll slip right into the top of my copper column and get rid of all the copper in the descending path. 1ft of 2'' OD stainless sanitary tubing and 4ft of 3/8'' CSST.

Stainless is much harder to work, so I'm planning on taking it to a machine shop or something to have the slots cut. Replacing copper on a pot still would be a hell of a job. Retrofitting a bok with SS is much less of a hassle.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Late to this thread as well, but thought I'd chime in.

I got a quote from Vendome last year for a few entry level commercial options, and for what it's worth, most of the options they sent me were with copper product condensers. The only stainless condensers they offered were on full copper boiler/column combos, and even at that, they offered the copper condensers as upgrades.

I'm not opposed or for either material over the other. Just simply offering the information I have at hand.

[DFitz]

Notice your product tastes so much better after your first few runs? Probably less to do with experience and everything to do with a seasoned still head.

Well dammit all to hell BB! I thought I was just getting better with Practice...

[Bushman]

Look at the 3rd pictures in the distillery tour I did in Hawaii, they have about 2-1/2 feet of 1/2" in the collection path. The other picture that shows packing is all SS SPP's.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =7&t=55134

[Odin]

Okay, sorry, can't stay away from this thread! Some more oil on the fire. Seems to be my role on this topic.

In favour of "outing copper from distillation":

See those micro and craft distilleries popping up everywhere? Do you agree that they make interesting beers? Not like Bud's at all? Okay, next time you visit one, take a closer look at the equipment they use. Copper? No way. All stainless steel.

Another one (maybe):

I visited Buffalo Trace and Jim Beam. They use two continuous stills. One to strip alcohol from the grain mash. The other to ... well more on that in another thread. Any copper there? No. All stainless steel. The Vendome potstills they run for their vodka (Buffalo Trace)? Stainless. Both of them. Now, especially given the "quality" of Jim Beam's, I am not sure that's a big argument in favour!

Regards, Odin.

[DAD300]

There were six still vendors at ADI...one had only copper PC's (HBS) and one offered a copper PC (Vendome). While four had all SS PC's, even those with copper boilers and columns.

I'm betting the copper at Hali'imaile Distilling was just a means of getting to the collection vessel.

[carbohydratesn]

Good to know Technological advancement is a wonderful thing. We know copper is a fairly reactive element. We know stainless is as good as inert, for our purposes. There's no good reason *not* to use it - except tradition.

It's reassuring to know the industry is on top of things like this.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Except they are finding that stainless is corroding and developing pinholes. I'll have to find the literature, but here is one posting about it.

http://www.finishing.com/465/56.shtml

There is no 100% perfect material for what we do, or for anything for that matter.

All we can do is be informed, educate ourselves, and make the decision ON OUR OWN to use or not to use one material over the other.

Having stainless rammed down our throat does nothing but irritate me.

There are pros and cons to both materials, in ALL. Sections of a still. Does it mean we outlaw one or the Other? No, it means we weight out the information so when we build we can make an informed decision.

[DeepSouth]

I'd venture to guess that the primary reason any of those still manufacturers primarily use stainless in the product condenser has nothing to do with health and everything to do with profit. A stainless product condenser on that scale is just simply less expensive to build. I still haven't been convinced one way or another that copper in the product condenser is harmful.

[carbohydratesn]

Ah, yeah, not performing maintenance on stainless is not a good idea in an environment where you need to perform maintenance on it. The same thing would happen to copper if you don't treat it right. Do you store your copper condensers in vinegar when you aren't using them? I don't, because that would destroy them, just like that stainless was destroyed by a lack of care. Humans are learning how to do things better all the time, I'm sure that person will take better care of their next stainless filter tube.

It's absolutely a personal choice. Tradition, or just a preference or copper, is a perfectly valid reason to choose it over stainless. I don't mean to ram anything down anyone's throat, I'm sorry if it came off that way. It's just that, if you value making as pure a product as possible, over other qualities - even though the difference isn't very large, at all - stainless is the better choice for condensers and anything your collected distillate comes in contact with. If you value materials that are sturdy and easy to work with and maintain, more than you value other things, stainless is the better choice. If you take care of it, it is close to perfect for distillation, especially for condensers.

There is no perfect material - but stainless is, in some areas, better for our purposes than copper. Copper is still a completely valid choice. The differences are not very big, they are both safe and very good choices. But like you said, there are pros and cons to materials, and it's up to individuals to choose which materials they prefer for different tasks. I don't disagree with you at all on that. But we should be honest about what those pros and cons are, provide all the information we can, and make decisions for ourselves.

Stainless is a more inert material than copper is, for this, and that's very important to me. I would like the most inert surfaces possible for my distillate to come in contact with. If you don't value that over other things, that is completely okay. But stainless *is* more inert, for this purpose. If you take care of it, it will not release anything into your distillate. Copper will, no matter how well you take care of it. That's just chemistry, it's a fact of life.

Even if it's just cheaper, and not any safer, that's plenty of reason to choose it over copper for a lot of people. I appreciate knowing it costs less, that is a big factor for me. I made a true double-helix copper condenser with a big cold finger, initially, because I am a fan of doing things 'right' - I'm a fan of overkill. I had no idea CSST existed, or was an option, until recently. I made a new CSST condenser. It was less than one fifth the cost, and *much* easier to shape, than the copper condenser was. I would have loved knowing this before I decided to make a copper condenser. I like the copper condenser, and it was fun to make - but I like stainless better.

I believe everyone involved in this hobby should be informed about this kind of thing, so they can make a proper decision. It's your choice - but you should be aware of those pros and cons.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Stainless is a more inert material than copper is, for this, and that's very important to me. I would like the most inert surfaces possible for my distillate to come in contact with. If you don't value that over other things, that is completely okay. But stainless *is* more inert, for this purpose. If you take care of it, it will not release anything into your distillate. Copper will, no matter how well you take care of it.

While stainless is relatively inert, the benefits of copper in my opinion still out weigh the bad. You MAY get higher EC formation from copper, but you have more sulphates/sulphites coming through into your distillate with absolutely no copper. A stainless still will produce different flavours than copper.

Is it a question of purity? Mm. I dunno. While copper just needs a rinse here and there, sounds like the maintenance on stainless to keep it from corroding involves a little more (like plating with nickel in some cases according to a couple sources?) to keep it good. Where as copper patina is good.

Aside from EC formation I don't see any reason why stainless is better than copper. And even with that, the studies are varied and many view points on it. (Ultimately leads back to the ferment. If the precursors are controlled, so is the formation of EC.)

Anyway, I don't know why I keep getting in on this conversation. I don't care either way. All I care about is that people aren't beings forced one sided opinions in an attempt to force stainless. if it can't be backed up with actual research data that stainless is unconditionally better, then it has no foot hold.

[carbohydratesn]

Copper and stainless are good for different things, that's why (as far as I know) everyone who uses stainless...also uses copper.

You don't have to plate stainless in nickel. That's just if you don't want to be required to protect your stainless, and allow it to develop a patina. It's the exact same with copper. Patina is good. But if you run it all the time, it won't develop a patina. And not developing a patina destroys stainless. To fix this problem, all you have to do it let it develop a patina, let it oxidize.

Nickel plating is one option to avoid having to do this. The maintenance is not any more difficult, nickel plating is just an extreme solution to this problem.

if it can't be backed up with actual research data that stainless is unconditionally better, then it has no foot hold.

Well that seems like a rather dramatic position...it can't have a foothold unless there is proof it is unconditionally better? Sorry, but that's complete bullshit. Why does copper deserve a foothold without the same proof?

I respect you a lot, you're a smart guy, but expecting any kind of unconditional proof that stainless is better is ridiculous. As it's already been said, they both have pros and cons. It can have a foothold without that impossible to obtain level of proof. There are facts about the two materials. And those facts give both materials an extremely strong foothold.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

My comment was more to say if you can't provide unequivocal proof that stainless is best and copper is absolutely dangerous, then trying to tell everyone they need to get rid of their copper and copper should be banned from the forum has no foothold.

Not saying you, but this and other threads were created with that intent. Which I disagree with. It's a choice. It's what you want your stuff to taste like, it's your choice to choose Reduced EC formation over Reduced sulphates, (which really seems to be the only real argument the pro stainless crowd is using)

Sorry if I was misunderstood

[carbohydratesn]

Just a marketing ploy? Are you kidding? Marketing for what? Manufacturers of stainless tubing?

Stainless is a legitimate alternative to copper for many things. It's a lot cheaper. And it's a hell of a lot easier to work with. Not everything like this is a 'marketing ploy'...Odin isn't just trying to sell things here. Hardly anyone who reads this - practically *nobody* - will ever buy anything from Odin or his company. Maybe, like, three people. If it's advertising, it's got to be some of the least profitable and least thought-out advertising in the world.

Nice meaningless, obstructive block of copy-pasted text there, googe, very nice.

[googe]

A process for the reduction of ethyl carbamate (EC) in stone fruit spirits, in particular to reduce the cyanide content in alcohol / liquid mixtures, a distillation apparatus using copper as the catalyst, wherein the mash is heated in a still and the rising alcohol vapors of a rectifying column with amplifier floors, a dephlegmator and a cooling apparatus are supplied, characterized in that from the top amplifier bottom (7) the ascending vapors are one, from phlegm (15) of the dephlegmator (11) wetted copper catalyst and then the subsequent dephlegmator (11) supplied to bind the Cyanidbestandteile.

2. Apparatus for carrying out the method of claim 1 and in particular for the reduction of ethyl carbamate in stone fruit spirits, comprising an internal bubble with subsequent rectifying column, dephlegmator and cooling device, characterized in that between the uppermost amplifier bottom (7) and the dephlegmator (11) from existing copper catalyst (10) is arranged with a large copper surface.

3. A device according to claim 1, characterized in that the copper catalyst (10) consists of a tube bundle (17) of lamellae or pipes (21) disposed respectively in the vertical throughflow direction of the distillation apparatus (1).

4. Apparatus according to claim 2 or 3, characterized in that the copper catalyst has an effective copper surface of at least 10 m², with an outer diameter of D ≈ 400 mm.

5. The device according to claim 3, characterized in that the fin tubes of the copper catalyst (21) consist of a vertical tube bundle, with rosette-shaped in cross-section intermediate walls (22).

6. The device according to claim 3, characterized in that the copper catalyst (10, 23) consists of a concentrically wound, zig-zag lamination plate (25), with an adjacent, simultaneously wound sheet metal wall (24).

7. The device according to one or more of the preceding claims 2 to 6, characterized in that above the catalyst, a distributor plate (26) for uniform sprinkling of the catalyst with flowing back phlegm (15) from the fractionating column (11) is provided.

8. The device according to one or more of the preceding claims, characterized in that the cleaning of the catalyst (10) by means of a above and / or below the catalyst is arranged, preferably as a rotating arm (28) with high-pressure nozzles (29) formed on the cleaning device (27 27 ') is done with washing liquid.

[carbohydratesn]

It's a choice. It's what you want your stuff to taste like, it's your choice to choose Reduced EC formation over Reduced sulphates, (which really seems to be the only real argument the pro stainless crowd is using)

That is not a choice that you have to make. Choosing entirely one or the other is not the only option. It is strongly recommended, any time stainless is talked about, to have at least *some* copper in the ascending path. It would be a bad idea to *not* include any. You are making an empty argument, those are not the only choices. You can have both of those things, the most desirable aspects of both materials, extremely easily.

[googe]

Just a marketing ploy? Are you kidding? Marketing for what? Manufacturers of stainless tubing?

Stainless is a legitimate alternative to copper for many things. It's a lot cheaper. And it's a hell of a lot easier to work with. Not everything like this is a 'marketing ploy'...Odin isn't just trying to sell things here. Hardly anyone who reads this - practically *nobody* - will ever buy anything from Odin or his company. Maybe, like, three people. If it's advertising, it's got to be some of the least profitable and least thought-out advertising in the world.

Nice meaningless, obstructive block of copy-pasted text there, googe, very nice.

Thanks. the OP is renowned for this plugging. Cheaper, maybe, easier to work with is stainless or copper easier to drill?, can you solder stainless to stainless easy?, do you need a welder for copper?. I don't have a problem with stainless, there's nothing wrong with it. don't see many threads out there about Copper uses dissing stainless .

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Well, now we're just mincing words.

Look I honestly don't give a shit if a person wants to run stainless, or copper or a combo still of the two.

Just don't come around me with "we need to stop using this material" (such as the title of this thread) cause the arguments are always one sided.

I've posted a tonne of stuff about a tonne of things, articles, research papers, etc. but I try not to limit what I post to only my view. I try to find info on both sides of the fence so people are informed and able to make educated decisions for them selves. And when I can only find one side, I'm more than happy to hear from the other side.

This thread and so many others come at it as "see this study and this study, they say copper is bad so it has to go" and then a newb comes along and reads the one study and says holy crap I can't use copper. It's an uneducated decision. Because they only get one view and because of the high rank of the person posting the info, it's taken as holy information.

[carbohydratesn]

Nobody's 'dissing' copper, it's an important material.

All this thread has been filled with this evening is the opposite - copper users dissing stainless, for no reason. Just read some of the posts. All of the downsides people are bringing up are not actual downsides, they are misunderstandings or maybe even deliberate misinterpretation - I can't tell.

My comment was more to say if you can't provide unequivocal proof that stainless is best and copper is absolutely dangerous, then trying to tell everyone they need to get rid of their copper and copper should be banned from the forum has no foothold.

I don't see anyone telling everyone they need to get rid of their copper, or anyone saying copper should be banned from the forum. I haven't read this entire thread in a while - do you have any links to comments like that? That kind of opinion does not have any foothold, you are absolutely correct.

The title of this thread is controversially worded. That doesn't mean anyone thinks we should get rid of copper entirely. Odin was just trying to 'stir up the pot' a little. Even the most steadfast supporters of stainless know that copper is important for removing sulphurous compounds - in the ascending path. It is not anywhere near as important in the descending path, any sulphurous compounds removed are immediately added right back into your distillate. Thread titles are not where the content lies - they are not always meant to be taken literally, especially when the poster *knows* it's going to be a controversial topic.

Nobody is saying "holy crap I can't use copper", not that I've seen. If they are, they are misunderstanding things.

[Bushman]

OK, this thread is getting a bit heated. Odin is known for making a blanket statement to start a dialogue, he does that to get members thinking, so take it for what it is. Here on HD we promote both copper and stainless with not much else and I think where Odin was going with this is how much copper is necessary in the path to make a good drop.

I went to a micro distillery not to long ago that uses the Colonels all copper still and swears that is the only way to make a good drop. What Odin is saying is technology has evolved and old traditions may not be today's standards. Lets not get lost in this process as I read what people are saying either works, what works best for you?

[googe]

Sorry bushman, right you are, got sucked in again. Delete my rubbish.

[bentstick]

Well, now we're just mincing words.

Look I honestly don't give a shit if a person wants to run stainless, or copper or a combo still of the two.

Just don't come around me with "we need to stop using this material" (such as the title of this thread) cause the arguments are always one sided.

I've posted a tonne of stuff about a tonne of things, articles, research papers, etc. but I try not to limit what I post to only my view. I try to find info on both sides of the fence so people are informed and able to make educated decisions for them selves. And when I can only find one side, I'm more than happy to hear from the other side.

This thread and so many others come at it as "see this study and this study, they say copper is bad so it has to go" and then a newb comes along and reads the one study and says holy crap I can't use copper. It's an uneducated decision. Because they only get one view and because of the high rank of the person posting the info, it's taken as holy information.

Thank you drunk smurf dont always agree with what ya have posted, but that is it in a nut shell,and nothing against SS, but same feeling on copper! Cheers from a still,of all copper here