Yeast Nutrients for Alcohol Tolerance

[natas6171]

been distlling for about a year (started w/ tea kettle pot still, now using a 6litre sort of hybrid reflux/pot still w/ pickle jar thumper). I'm looking for a simple nutrient mix for sugar washes. Also is it not possible to 'breed up' a bayannus (Red Star Pasteur Champ) yeast to higher than the estimated Alc tolerance? A yeast chart lists RSPC as 13-15 percent, but aren't bayannus cultures used in the turbo yeasts? My understanding of turbo yeast is that it's the nutrient mix that allows for the higher Alcohol tolerance. any suggestions would be appreciated

[rad14701]

Fleischmann's Active Dry bakers yeast has been proven to consistently and reliably ferment to 14% with sugar washes without need for clearing agents or charcoal filtering, and won't impart off tastes or flavors... You don't want/need to go any higher... See both the Gerber and All Bran recipes in my sig for more information... Both recipes can be pot stilled or refluxed...

Attempting to mutate existing yeasts is most likely an act of futility in comparison to the inexpensive cost of yeasts today... I pay ~4.50 for 2 - 1 pound bricks of Fleichmann's... That's roughly $2.25 per pound... At a price like that, and the fact that you can re-use your yeast, why bother with yeast propagation...??? Leave that task to the experts...

[natas6171]

thanx for the advice. not sure i want to mess with cereals, looking more at molasses as a nutrient base but am curious if it's necessary to add anything other than acid blend/DAP.

[noobsauce]

Well just to respond to your comments Rad....

Some on this site are experts at the use of yeast for distilling purposes. and I also consider them experts on the art of fermentation and distilling. Yeast is our friend and we use it. The pursuit of "excellence" in our hobby is admirable. I bet you can mutate yeast through multiple generations to, in fact, be a higher tolerance yeast. The person wasnt talking about saving money on yeast.

To answer the post.....

I bet you could make a yeast over time that would have a higher tolerance....but all you would end up with is a homemade turbo with all the associated problems (bad tastes) that come with them. If a high tolerance yeast that imparted no bad tastes was possible the turbo makers woulda' done it already.

My advice is buy a bigger fermentor and/or 2 of them and dont worry about higher %....stay away from turbos..

[airhill]

Possibly vitamin B and a small amount of epsom salts salts for the magnesium, but Hook would be the expert on this.

[Dnderhead]

one of the best and cheepest yeast "foods" are dead boild yeast.

[rad14701]

Well just to respond to your comments Rad....

Some on this site are experts at the use of yeast for distilling purposes. and I also consider them experts on the art of fermentation and distilling. Yeast is our friend and we use it. The pursuit of "excellence" in our hobby is admirable. I bet you can mutate yeast through multiple generations to, in fact, be a higher tolerance yeast. The person wasnt talking about saving money on yeast.

It takes many generations of yeast propagation, perhaps dozens, under repeatedly controlled conditions, to effectively attempt to mutate a yeast strain and the whole strain can head in an unwanted direction at any time... There can be a lot of starting over from scratch involved... It's not a task to be taken lightly and requires an acceptance of repeated failure...

If someone is interested enough in trying then they should be able to source adequate information on the internet... It's on my "been there, done that" list... I speak from experience when I say it's more bother than it's worth... I played with this back in my wine making days, spending far too much time peering through a microscope at samples... And while that may not be cause to be labeled a yeast expert, it probably makes me closer than most... Unfortunately, my notebooks, equipment, and most everything else, didn't survive my divorce - but we won't go there... Needless to say, I no longer have a romance with yeast...

Your advice about multiple low ABV ferments and avoiding turbos was spot on... Greed causes more bad spirits than pretty much everything else combined...

[natas6171]

i got into distilling as an extension of my beer and wine homebrewing hobby, mixed with exposure to a 55 gallon stainless steel alembic style grappa still. i am as interested in quality finished product as well as the economy of making my own spirits and liqueurs. if bread yeast is an acceptable medium then i'm happy to save a few bucks. the flip side to that is as i have limited space for the multitude of fermenters and carbouys i wish i had the space for i would like to maximize production in my workspace (plus the wife and i like our cocktails just a bit ) i'm simply looking to max my production while maintaining and even improving the quality of my finished product. further reading has verified the points you have made. stressed yeast in high gravity wash produce crap i'd rather not drink. my next question is how reliable is the flaming spoon purity test. my grappa mentor swore that orange tinged flame meant tainted distillate, but both my wife and i have failed to find the much talked about "solvent smell" and off flavours in slightly orange tinged burns. be prepared to have your brains picked as often as i can bend your ear. by the way rad your apartment still design is probably the best i've seen for compact reflux designs. Is the tall column the one you run? the smaller one seems more suited to the kind of setup i'm looking for. i hope i can bounce tech questions off of you.

[LWTCS]

Flaming spoon test is not a reliable measure for quality drinking spirits.

I recon it can also give one an marginalized measure of purity.

But for heavens sakes a hydro is 7 bucks and that will give you more acurate measurements with which to let your taste buds over rule.

[natas6171]

have an alchometer, for measuring proof/percentage, but how can that be used for determining impurities. have read much about how high levels of methanol is an impossiblity with an all sugar wash (i use inverted white sugar, with one cup of molasses for nutrients, DAP salts for nitrogen and lemon juice out of a bottle for acidty). but i pitch the first 125 ml of distillate, and still have concerns over isopropyls and fusels. have yet to find sufficient info about levels produced in fermentation other than stressed yeast make all manner of unwanted substances.

[Dnderhead]

there is no test, that we can do other than taste/smell and not having a hangover.
and there is a lot more than methanol, acetone,ethyl acetate,,propyl, butyl,amyl,furural.

[natas6171]

well then i'm doing okay. drinking storebought bring's on a rager, but the homedone...not even dry mouth. around here if we wake up after drinking that's good. if we wake up and can still see even better

[HookLine]

around here if we wake up after drinking that's good. if we wake up and can still see even better

[natas6171]

Started a wash two days ago. 4kg sugar (inverted), 250ml molasses, 4 cups of wheat bran for upping the fibre content of muffins etc (quaker brand natural wheat bran), pitched the bayannus yeast from my last sugar wash, plus DAP and epsom salts. Holy Shit, the burping bubbler woke me up from a sound sleep. Caved in to Rad's cereal suggestion, (didn't like the thought of having to clean that stuff out of my fermenter!!) and so far happy i did. Smells like my last batch of homemade wholewheat bread. Will post my thoughts on the finished product when it's ready.

[LWTCS]

I've done similar recipes with panella sugar and a quantity of molassas with all Bran and Graham Cracker combo. Been real happy with it.

I've got a 25 lter fermenter from Brewhaus and never had any clean up issues (that I am aware of).

Good luck on this batch. Hope it comes across for you.
L.T.

[natas6171]

I'm just thinking of the hell i'll catch if all those little bits of bran don't all go done the sink. the missus likes the end product but man oh man, don't leave a mess. but any way, after three days the wort already smells and tastes better than my last batch after 10. suddenly have a new appreciation for the stuff you need to add for healthy yeast.

[LWTCS]

I'm just thinking of the hell i'll catch if all those little bits of bran don't all go done the sink. the missus likes the end product but man oh man, don't leave a mess.

Oh,,,,,,thats what you mean. I'm in the same boat,,err,,,,dog house.

Cereal with the yeast bed really does turn to mud. Should be able to flush(toilet) or wash (sink) down with no issues as long as you make sure your (sink) trap is good and flushed.

[rad14701]

Yup... All my leftovers go down the toilet... Forgot to flush after an All Bran ferment once and was asked what I puked up... I NEVER puke... Haven't made that mistake again...

[natas6171]

Could you throw back the cereal to reuse the yeast? with appropriate nutrient additions of course. i know you're using bakers yeast, so the cost is minimal, but i'm still interested in evolving my yeast just as an interesting side project.

[LWTCS]

Yep.

[rad14701]

Could you throw back the cereal to reuse the yeast? with appropriate nutrient additions of course. i know you're using bakers yeast, so the cost is minimal, but i'm still interested in evolving my yeast just as an interesting side project.

Yes... As long as the %ABV stays low enough to keep the yeast colony viable it can be reused... There's no guarantee what might happen if you try switching recipes with partially mutated yeast, however... I found that to be where I ran into problems most often when I was attempting to modify a strain...

Remember, with ANY yeast, the higher the %ABV you shoot for, the more likely to have the yeast impart off smells and flavors, and possibly poor clearing without fining/clearing agents...

[natas6171]

After much research, i've given up on the idea of going for the 20-21 %,the whole stressed yeast thing. I'd rather have happy yeast and 14% than 20%, sick yeast and having to throw away more, if not a whole spoiled wash. a second 5 gallon pail is definitely in my future.

[LWTCS]

After much research, i've given up on the idea of going for the 20-21 %,the whole stressed yeast thing. I'd rather have happy yeast and 14% than 20%, sick yeast and having to throw away more, if not a whole spoiled wash. a second 5 gallon pail is definitely in my future.

Good call.
Some Gents shoot for an even lower abv.

[natas6171]

Also from my homebrewing experience, i'm curious about the whole idea of a lager style ferment. clean, slow, low temp ferments. works for fine bavarian beer, and i would imagine the result would be the same for a distillation destined wort.

[Dnderhead]

you will have a slite drop in fores,heads.

[natas6171]

so not worth the extra time and patience, i guess...