My colum design, require advice!

[Saccie]

Hi Guys,

Have been distilling for qute some time using a SS reflux with extension colum. It works quite well but I have plans to design my own colum this is what I have come up with so far. The materials are:

(Picture included)
2.5" 1metre Total height copper tube
Copper coil condenser (Unknown diameter)
A dissasembly portion 2/3 up the colum to remove packing/clean.
The top 1/3 i plan on having the coil condenser.
Spout will be a sleve condenser smaller diameter copper tube through a larger diameter to be cooled by water.

(after refluxing the methanol) I will maintain a temp of around 80?c from the thermomiter in the cap just above the coil condenser and then the remainder of the vapour that is not refluxed below 80?c will pass though and be condensed with the spout as ethanol.

If anybody has any input on my design or thinks it might not work please let me know I dont have any ideas yet on what diameter I will make the copper coil or spout condensers, ideas on this will help also.

I will be using the SS 25L boiler, with 1380w Element (I may include a 900w element aswel for a total of 2280w)

[SMOKEU]

How hard was it to make the extension?

[olddog]

This is a bit of a mixture between a potstill and a reflux still. Will you be feeding any coolant to the coil within the stillhead?

OD

[HookLine]

That is a cooling management still. Not so good. Especially with that large coil condenser.

If you move the take-off port to between the reflux condenser and the packing, just above the join, it will become a vapour management head, much better for making neutral, if that is what you are after. Also...

Leave 2-2.5" gap above and below the take-off port.

Sit a reflux collar on top of the packing.

Make the diameter of the take-off port at least 1.25", preferably bigger.

[olddog]

And remove the column top cap

[HookLine]

Yes, remove the cap for a VM, or put a hole in it.

Thanks OD.

[rad14701]

+1 on not the best design...

In addition, if you convert the design to VM you should also put a gate valve between the column take off branch and the product condenser... During warm-up and equilibrium you will need to close the gate valve, which is why you need the vent hole in the column cap... Temperature should be taken at the take off branch height, but not where reflux will hit it...

If you have to ask questions about a still design you don't understand enough about the underlying theory and therefore aren't ready to be designing your own equipment and are better off building a tried and true design... If you don't see the design you have in your head then it is a very good possibility that your mental design won't work... With virtually thousands of years of collective still design and operation experience here in these forums it only stands to reason that just about every concept has already been imagined and/or built and tested... Remember, it's all about understanding the theory... Many pot stillers have years of experience yet don't have reflux theory nailed down...

Now, with regard to reflux stills and what I believe to be your conceptual theory of design... While some CM columns have a thermometer at the top, you should not be attempting to regulate the vapor temperature at the take off branch using a condenser below the branch... That's the surest way to turn yourself into a still jockey for the entirety of the run... This is the WHY behind the poor design... We've covered virtually the same poor design several times in the past few weeks... If you have been doing any amount of research you would be well aware of this and wouldn't have posted the same flawed design... Anyway, you get the point...

[Saccie]

Hi guys first of all thank you for the replies.


Smokeu, they sell them at brewcraft etc, SS extension tower I believe they are called, they are full of ceramic saddles and made a very big difference to my ability to regulate temps and the quality of the distilate.

OldDog The coolant will flow through the spout condenser then into the top of the column coil condenser.

rad14701 the concept of distilation is not complex (evaporation and condensation of a substance at which temperature it turns to vapor), the complexety arises from what you aim to achieve from the distilation, in this case I am aiming for the highest possible quality of the distilate, since I will only be using for nutural spirits. I have read designs and if you have to you can see this is basically a fractional stil without heat source temperature management.

What I aim to achieve with this design with the double condensing is to reflux volatiles below say 76c (back into the packing) and allow the vapor to pass though the coil and to be condensed by the spout which in theory should be fine since the ethanol can still pass by the internal coil, i believe fractional stills also use this tried and true design.

rad14701 When you say the design is inefficient in what way? as efficiency can mean many things depending on what you are aiming to achieve?

"you should not be attempting to regulate the vapor temperature at the take off branch using a condenser below the branch... That's the surest way to turn yourself into a still jockey for the entirety of the run... This is the WHY behind the poor design."

I do not believe this to be the case? since the cooler water will be flowing into the spout, the water will already be slightly warmer by the time it reaches to column condenser coil and since it is being regulated there once the boil equalises the only temperature rise should be caused as the ethanol content of the wash becomes lower, as long as the spout is long enough and cool enough that should be all that matters.

The questions I have on still design are not from lack of knowlege more so recommendations on lengths, sizes of materials from people who are more experienced than myself, I dont believe any amount of research can compare to someone who has manufactured first hand for years and put theory into practice and come up with their own designs.

I would also appreciate you be a bit more easy on me this time with your reply.

Below is a diagram for a fractional stil with heat source temperature management at the heating point, I believe a fractional stil can also have the temperature management above the packing by using a coil which I have in my plans.

Fractionating columns help to separate the mixture by allowing the mixed vapors to cool, condense, and vaporize again in accordance with Raoult's law. With each condensation-vaporization cycle, the vapors are enriched in a certain component.
(Exactly what I am aiming to do)

[still crazy]

rad14701 the concept of distilation is not complex (evaporation and condensation of a substance at which temperature it turns to vapor), the complexety arises from what you aim to achieve from the distilation, in this case I am aiming for the highest possible quality of the distilate, since I will only be using for nutural spirits. I have read designs and if you have to you can see this is basically a fractional stil without heat source temperature management.

Ya RAD cause you haven't been helpful to EVERYBODY !!!! (said with pure sarcasm)

Saccie, as someone who has heeded the mentors on this board. Used their experience to prevent my follys and read, read and re-read.
Its what you learn after you think you know it all that's important.
Take a step back and remember its constructive criticism your being offered, but you do have to do some work on your own.

Still on brothers

[olddog]

Thats the basic principle of a fractionating column, its a bit more involved to make it work properly. But as long as you ar working safe and don't expect every thing to work first time, experimenting with designs and theories is good.

This is my twin column fractionating still.

I am experimenting with mods all of the time, thats part of the fun.


OD

[still crazy]

Dog

Would ya mind if I turn that pic into a wall poster?

[olddog]

Would ya mind if I turn that pic into a wall poster?

No problem, I will waive the copyright fee for you.

[Saccie]

Thats the basic principle of a fractionating column, its a bit more involved to make it work properly. But as long as you ar working safe and don't expect every thing to work first time, experimenting with designs and theories is good.

This is my twin column fractionating still.

001.JPG

I am experimenting with mods all of the time, thats part of the fun.


OD

That I must say is a work of art, lovely :] OD do you think my design will function for the purpose i require? the top coil i am thinking I may have this quite large since another thing I aim to do is use minimal water with this, do you think 1/3 is overkill? not enough? I may also go a bit overkill with the spout too as I would hate to have to re make this because it is inadequate.

I also had a design in my head of a massive column with maybe a big sleeve around it or coil that is filled with water and the whole colum packed, but again a spout and temperature regulated at top of the column.

Saccie, as someone who has heeded the mentors on this board. Used their experience to prevent my follys and read, read and re-read.
Its what you learn after you think you know it all that's important.
Take a step back and remember its constructive criticism your being offered, but you do have to do some work on your own.

I totally agree, which is why I am posting my design, worked on a design of my own and plan to build it myself. But if people are going to criticise all i ask is that they explain very clearly else it is no use to say something is rubbish is no help unless you explain why, so far nobody has done that so im left here trying to prove my concept.

[rad14701]

Saccie, you can either take our advice or go off on your own... I don't know what you are trying to prove by posting theory that most of us here already know... You are the one asking for help, not us...

[airhill]

Don't know where to start on this one
You say you will control the vapour output temp at 79c, that would be CM on that design and its too hot you will push tails through. Not sure about the surface area of saddles v ss scrubbies but saddles are pricey and not as easy to clean.
If you go with that design and you wish to make neutral you have two choices, control the power or control the water flow to the reflux condenser (or both )

[Saccie]

Saccie, you can either take our advice or go off on your own... I don't know what you are trying to prove by posting theory that most of us here already know... You are the one asking for help, not us...

rad I will not be going off on my own just yet, I would prefer to wait and hope someone has tried something similar. When I do proceed with this I will be using the information provided within this thread. Most of the advice I have had so far is to go with a complete different colum which is not what this thread is here for.

This forum is for design and development of a still column is it not? first you say I do not understand the theory behind distillaion, then you say there is no point in me posting the theory behind my design, distillation and what I do know to have come up with this design. If anything I am attempting to prove my theory against your original doubts and onviously still getting nowhere.

I must say I think you are being quite rude now and will no longer reply to your posts unless they are beneficial to the design of my stil. I know you are a respected member here but I think you could have approached this differently.

Thanks.

[Saccie]

Don't know where to start on this one
You say you will control the vapour output temp at 79c, that would be CM on that design and its too hot you will push tails through. Not sure about the surface area of saddles v ss scrubbies but saddles are pricey and not as easy to clean.
If you go with that design and you wish to make neutral you have two choices, control the power or control the water flow to the reflux condenser (or both )

I have only used saddles so far since they came free with my extension tower but I have not yet cleaned them, I am not also too sure of how much they would absorb and how dirty they become? I usually tripple distill so I am guessing this cleans them up quite a bit! My experience with scrubbers was not too good, i tried a few brands and had little pieces of them always in the distilate :S is this normal? Maybe I will source some copper ones

Thanks!

[olddog]

I am sorry to say Saccie that in its present form your still would not work, having a water cooled condenser coil before the takeoff would mean all of the vapor would be condensed and returned to the boiler, without having a chance to get to the output.
If you want to run this still in fractionating mode, either remove the coil, and run it as a fractionating potstill whereby the vapor will be condensed in your leibig condenser, or if you want to add a bit of reflux action, move the coil condenser above the spirit takeoff and add a control valve to the water supply so as you can adjust the cooling rate to this condenser.


OD

[HookLine]

Most of the advice I have had so far is to go with a complete different colum which is not what this thread is here for.

Saccie, if you think that is a good design, then go ahead and build it, and try it for yourself. It is not an unsafe design, but it is very difficult to control accurately and consistently (maybe even impossible with that large coil reflux condenser), and it will give inferior results to other designs. If you are after neutral, then there are much better designs that are much easier to run. If you want to do it the hard way, that is your choice.


(And thanks to Rad for reminding us about the product valve. I must of had a serious brain fart when I wrote my last post up the thread. Forgot two important things about a VM design. Good thing others are on the ball. )

[airhill]

He's running it as a CM olddog not as a simple fractionating column

Never had a problem with SS scrubbies, usually flush from the top after a run then push them back up about an inch or so with a piece of dowel. Copper ones are really hard to get over here and they can be effected by an acid wash puking. You have copper in the system so I'd go with the ss.
When you are coming up to boil and for a while afterwards I would hold the vapour temps at about 75-76 this should allow the higher volatiles to bleed off so the heads are not smeared so much. Possibly the vapour temps will rise naturally with the column heating up so don't be too quick to play with the water valve, probably only need it towards the end of the run to suppress tails.
These are only my opinions based on my experience and every still is different

[olddog]

He's running it as a CM olddog not as a simple fractionating column

Fractionating columns help to separate the mixture by allowing the mixed vapors to cool, condense, and vaporize again in accordance with Raoult's law. With each condensation-vaporization cycle, the vapors are enriched in a certain component.(Exactly what I am aiming to do)

I assumed otherwise Airhill.

OD

[Saccie]

He's running it as a CM olddog not as a simple fractionating column

Fractionating columns help to separate the mixture by allowing the mixed vapors to cool, condense, and vaporize again in accordance with Raoult's law. With each condensation-vaporization cycle, the vapors are enriched in a certain component.(Exactly what I am aiming to do)

I assumed otherwise Airhill.

OD

Sorry to confuse anyone I was just trying to point out the theory behind this design. As long as i monitor the temps above the colum condenser the still should work just fine? it will only be refluxing volatiles above the evap point of ethanol?

I really must say thanks Airhil you have been a great help! and only one who seems to beleive in me xD I usually hold around that "I would hold the vapour temps at about 75-76" for as long as I can now untill I can tell the ethanol is starting to try push its way through, smell a bit on a spoon and taste towards the end when its cleaning up, but this is with a far smaller colum/condeser Once it got to that point i guess I could turn it from a drip to a trickle with the water and the thermomiter should give me a better idea of how things are progressing.

Its beginning to look like I may be giving this design a try after all! since water and higher volatiles evap at a higher temp I am hoping the colum condenser will cool these in the colum return these to the packing more efficiently while having this condensation-vaporization cycle effect of a fractional stil and the spout will liquify the ethanol. Sort of having a double distilling effect. All i Need to do is do a bit more research and planning of spacing how low I am going to put this coil, how large I am going to make the coil also 30cm long coil too overkill?

[olddog]

I guess you didn't really want advise, you had already made up your mind to build it anyway.

[Ayay]

Saccie, it is not possible to selectively condense the water vs alcohol vapors, nor the heads alcohols vs the hearts alcohols. If any vapors get through the coil condenser in your design they will be the same composition as those that got condensed.

Refining cannot happen in the condenser, it all happens in the packed column and the condenser will condense everything presented to it.

The most successful designs provide a sure and precise way to control the amount of reflux being returned to the column. Running slowly at 100% reflux will allow the refining to take place in the column. A while after the column is stabilized the vapors at the top of the column will be concentrated in alcohol, then they are carefully drawn off and condensed without upsetting the stability in the column.

[Saccie]

Saccie, it is not possible to selectively condense the water vs alcohol vapors, nor the heads alcohols vs the hearts alcohols. If any vapors get through the coil condenser in your design they will be the same composition as those that got condensed.

Refining cannot happen in the condenser, it all happens in the packed column and the condenser will condense everything presented to it.

The most successful designs provide a sure and precise way to control the amount of reflux being returned to the column. Running slowly at 100% reflux will allow the refining to take place in the column. A while after the column is stabilized the vapors at the top of the column will be concentrated in alcohol, then they are carefully drawn off and condensed without upsetting the stability in the column.

Hi Ayay, Would it be better to cool the whole column (by cool I mean to just above ethanol evap temp) rather than just reflux the top a bit? I am trying to have the effect you speak of, returning talls etc to the colum to be refined/re-evaporated thinking of this actually. sorry i did get confused earlier and say I would reflux at the top of the colum at 76 (this would allow no ethanol to pass) when it should be more like 79 - 80, above the evap temp of ethanol and below the evap temp of fusels etc. this would alow the composition of what passes the condeser to be different that that being returned to the column?

Thanks!

[Ayay]

Hi Ayay, Would it be better to cool the whole column (by cool I mean to just above ethanol evap temp) rather than just reflux the top a bit? I am trying to have the effect you speak of, returning talls etc to the colum to be refined/re-evaporated thinking of this actually. sorry i did get confused earlier and say I would reflux at the top of the colum at 76 (this would allow no ethanol to pass) when it should be more like 79 - 80, above the evap temp of ethanol and below the evap temp of fusels etc. this would alow the composition of what passes the condeser to be different that that being returned to the column?

The packed column is self-balancing with cooled condensates (reflux) being the only cooling effect coming from the very top, and hot vapors are entering at the bottom of the column. It doesn't matter what the numbers are because these pass through each other and transfer heat to each other on the way. I'm guessing some numbers, say the relux coming off the condenser is 60*C, and the vapors from the boiler are 90*C, they pass through each other and thus the vapors arrive at the top at a very stable 78*C more-or-less before being hit down again at 60*C by the condenser. This is a result of heat from the boiler, cooling from the condenser, minus the very magical "latent heat of evaporation" which is the genie for what happens between the vapors and the liquids as they pass each other in the column. The genie is what does the refining, provided it gets cool liquids and hot vapors to intermingle as long as possible inside the whole length of the packing.

The column is insulated in order to keep out external influences, and to preserve the valuable heat contained in the vapors going upwards.

Your design is very close to a VM still but remains a CM. Believe us...you need to bleed off the purest vapors that collect at the top of the packing after the genie has done it's work. The reflux coil has a simple job to do and it will not separate anything on it's own. Moving the coil up and adding a gate valve to the take-off port will get you to the top of this here collective resourse...VM...the cuttin edge here at the forefront.

I joined this forum when LM was well established as much better than CM. Then came VM which has proved to be the best yet. Go straight to VM I tell ya

[blanikdog]

Being a simple pot stiller I know little or nothing about any of these still designs, but after seven decades on this planet I have a pretty good knowledge of attitude, and I'm sorry saccie, but you really do need to have a good look at yourself. Seems to me that you have already decided where you wish to go with your still, so go for it and come back and tell us, bragging your heart out if you desire.

Until then, perhaps we should stop feeding this troll??

blanik

[Saccie]

I think that is best since I only seem to be upsetting people. Not sure exactly what I have done but I am not here to cause trouble especially with you Blanik. I was only after some input on my design really, recommendations on lenths, diameters, materials, if this will indeed do what I intend and hopefully someone who has tried a similar design. And was after in depth info of why this design may be flawed to help me with it.

I was not after a complete different design since users seem to feed me and be upset I wanted to try something new and have only been a few people willing to explain things to me and they seem to think the design will work fine!.

Sorry but i just dont find people saying something is bad or flawed when they dont explain why or how I can improve on this or from what i understood even understand the function of the colum design.

I guess this is what happens when you wish to try something new, shame though I am a good person, no troll, no trolling here, and I am sure you all are too.

Thanks, Saccie.

PS If I do go ahead with this design and it does work well or fails miserably I will think twice about posting results and a thread here after this experience.

[Saccie]

Hi Ayay, Would it be better to cool the whole column (by cool I mean to just above ethanol evap temp) rather than just reflux the top a bit? I am trying to have the effect you speak of, returning talls etc to the colum to be refined/re-evaporated thinking of this actually. sorry i did get confused earlier and say I would reflux at the top of the colum at 76 (this would allow no ethanol to pass) when it should be more like 79 - 80, above the evap temp of ethanol and below the evap temp of fusels etc. this would alow the composition of what passes the condeser to be different that that being returned to the column?

The packed column is self-balancing with cooled condensates (reflux) being the only cooling effect coming from the very top, and hot vapors are entering at the bottom of the column. It doesn't matter what the numbers are because these pass through each other and transfer heat to each other on the way. I'm guessing some numbers, say the relux coming off the condenser is 60*C, and the vapors from the boiler are 90*C, they pass through each other and thus the vapors arrive at the top at a very stable 78*C more-or-less before being hit down again at 60*C by the condenser. This is a result of heat from the boiler, cooling from the condenser, minus the very magical "latent heat of evaporation" which is the genie for what happens between the vapors and the liquids as they pass each other in the column. The genie is what does the refining, provided it gets cool liquids and hot vapors to intermingle as long as possible inside the whole length of the packing.

The column is insulated in order to keep out external influences, and to preserve the valuable heat contained in the vapors going upwards.

Your design is very close to a VM still but remains a CM. Believe us...you need to bleed off the purest vapors that collect at the top of the packing after the genie has done it's work. The reflux coil has a simple job to do and it will not separate anything on it's own. Moving the coil up and adding a gate valve to the take-off port will get you to the top of this here collective resourse...VM...the cuttin edge here at the forefront.

I joined this forum when LM was well established as much better than CM. Then came VM which has proved to be the best yet. Go straight to VM I tell ya

I must say that is some of the most impressive information I have come across so far and appreciate the fact you were willing to go to the trouble to explain this to me. I am as I eat my dinner going to look into this as it seems I had the idea of this column/purification process all wrong! I figured the condenser in the top of the column would take care of this but as you have kindly explained that is not the case. Once again thanks you have been a great help!

[Ayay]

Thanks, and on behalf of the others it's tough love but all the same it's love!

Your theory has been used in a cruder form for a long time until LM proved to be much better for precise control. VM is no better in principle except that the control is automatically more precise and self-balancing than LM.

Either LM or VM in a 1m packed column, you'll get 95% output which is as good as it gets. Separating the heads and tails is more in the 'cuts'; sorting out the final collection by taste and smell after collecting in small containers. Heads and tails go forward for another run and the column will purify them once more and get more hearts out of them.

Yes there are theories for compressing the heads and tails, but it's more how you drive the still that you have an the cuttin you do, than the design of the still.