rum yeast bed question?

[DCT]

I have a 2nd gen yeast bed of rum left in two 5gallon car boys ben sitting in cool bathroom capped...will this still be good for a 3rd gen rum? wil my yeast pick back up or should I yeast bomb it?
thanks

[bstinga]

Most likely still good as gold (depends on how long it has been stored and the yeast population health - i.e. more lipids developed = greater population robustness against adverse environment). With rum you generally don't have to be too worried about bacterial contamination etc... you should see the state of my 'dunder pits'

Re-using wash can build up low pH (depends on how much you use). So make sure you check this if you are a few generations in or are using a larger % of spent lees etc. Otherwise try it as normal, worst case scenerio not much happens and you have to pitch some new yeast into the wash. If you are using bakers yeast for rum it should be quite a strong performer (don't try and push the final alcohol % too much above 10 or 12% with it though), otherwise EC-1118 is always good at re-starting wash's. Make sure you really aerate the wash to begin with so as to alow the yeast numbers to build up before the anearobic phase. Also be carefull of not being overly heavy handed with yeast nutrients as these may build up over generations and cause some problems (but this is a relatively minor issue). I have been using ale yeasts of late and fermenting on the warm side to get different flavour profiles in the rum.

[DCT]

what ph do i want my wash at? dont think i will add any nutrients this time? hade been adding muti vitiman cooked yeast & nitrogen. can i adjust ph with lie or lemon juice?

[LWTCS]

Arroyo recommends 5.5, 5.6 when working with sacchar-obutyricum (moldy dunder) for optimal performance.

[bstinga]

Yeast does best in neutral to low pH. According to Dr. Cone a pH around 4.5 is generally fairly optimum for most S. cerevisiae yeast strains (depends on other factors too, like how far away from the preferences in that strain for temp etc.). Low pH also retards bacteria growth which is generally helpful but for some rum styles you may not want to completely stop this (as suggested by Arroyo, worth checking out his classic research on Rum). Yeast naturally will acidify it's environment, depends on the waters buffering capacity. Generally you don't want to let the pH get below about pH 3.4 for any yeast. It depends on how 'actively' you want to manage the wash. Your water will also be key, depends on what minerals and buffers your particular water has. But you can use of potassium or calcium carbonate or bicarbonate or sodium bi/carbonate (potassium carbonate is more soluble and easier to work with, calcium carbonate is more widely available) to raise pH. If you don't want to manage the pH much maybe start with a pH of about 5 (use citric acid or possibly phosphoric if available) and throw a bit of gypsum in the wash to aid as a buffer if your water is naturally low in minerals etc (such as rain roof water). If you want to be more active you can try and keep it in the 3.5 to 4.5 pH range using the above and regularly checking it. You don't have to be too hung up on it for a rum wash IMO just worth keeping an eye on it from time to time and making a slight adjustment if it gets too low.

Sounds like the other aditives are spot on. The vitamin B (from dead yeast and vitamin tablets) is mainly used at the begining phase by yeast (aerobic) and helps with lipid development leading to s stronger yeast population able to handle extremes better latter in a ferment.

[myles]

You can actively manage your ph during fermentation to switch between bacterial and yeast fermentations but I have NOT tried it. I do store and age dunder, and I do re-use a yeast colony, but I also always add some fresh yeast. I also use a coctail of different yeast types. If you get a good answer let u know

[Beerswimmer]

A yeast cocktail sounds tasty, but does one strain eventually take over?

[kiwistiller]

My biologist friend said yes when I asked him that Don't know how right he was though. I've read on beer forums that certain strains are much more aggressive though.

[bstinga]

Yes definetely, some yeast strains are more competitive than others! Also, if conditions are more favourable to one group over another they will have an advantage. For example EC1118 is seen as quite a dominant strain that will for example out compete most wild strains or bakers yeast - hence it being the most commonly recomended strain to use on stuck fermentations. Of course as the yeast lifecycle can be very rapid mutations can occur, some advantages most not.

If you are interested in this side of things I would recomend reading Functional Genetics of Industrial Yeasts by J.H. deWinde (Ed.). It covers all the strains we are interested in (beer, wine etc). (ps. a pdf copy is available online).

You can actively manage your ph during fermentation to switch between bacterial and yeast fermentations but I have NOT tried it. I do store and age dunder, and I do re-use a yeast colony, but I also always add some fresh yeast. I also use a coctail of different yeast types. If you get a good answer let u know

Very interesting, hadn't thought about it quite like that. My dunder pit experiments have been 'interesting', still aprehensive about the unknown bacterial cultures I have going. Conditions have been too cool to truely 'replicate' that of the Caribbean practices. Was thinking of seeding some fresh dunder with pineapple skin and the top or bannana or sugar cane in order to encourage some of the wild yeast and bacteria of the traditional rum countries. Also, Joy Spence, of Appleton Estate Rum, feels that faster working yeast is better for light rums and that slower acting yeast is more appropriate for the more full-bodied rums that she makes in Jamaica.

[DCT]

i droped my ph test paper strip in my wash, cant get it out? wil this hurt? or should i just let it ferment?

[DCT]

my yeast will not start up, had about a inch of 2gen yeast bed left in 5 galln carboy, added half gallon dunder, 1 gallon feed mollasses, 5lbs brown sugar, topped with water, airated for 2 hours, capped & nothing this morning, so i hit it with one pack e1118, got home & stil nothing, shoul i yeast bomb it? p around 5. to 6, all ihave to measure with is ph paper

[DCT]

well i bombed it & added a pack of bakers yeast, still nothing, either somthing is klling my yeast or in the morning im going to have a bubbling mess??

[Dnderhead]

not into rum but did your molasses have phosphates?

[rubber duck]

What was the ph when you added the bomb and new yeast? Bakers yeast is a one time deal, I never reuse it because it gets killed or weakened by any substantial work or alcohol.

This is my suspicion, the original yeast cake was dead and the gravity of the new wash is to high for the small amount of fresh yeast you added. Yeast does not multiply well in a high gravity environment. Add more yeast.

[rad14701]

Considering the fact that several manufacturers of bakers yeast propogate it using molasses it's hard to imagine that the molasses would kill the bakers yeast unless it contains additives... You could have some bad yeast, however, so you might consider proofing some to see how lively it is...

[DCT]

ok, added 1 pack backers yeast to each 5 gallon wash last night, the day before i had added 1 packet 1118 to each, this morning i took one paket bakers yeast & split between both washes, when i got home i have some movement but very slow...should i add more bakers yeast? how much? or more 1118? or i also have a pound of distillers yeast....im just worried about some off tast from to mch yeast, considering this is 3rd gen yeast bed, a yeast bomb, plus what i have added...i think my sg was high with 5lbs brown sugar & 1 gallon of feed molasses, & 1/2 gallon dunder....my ph is around 5....im thinking with the unknown sugar content maybe adding a pack of distillers yeast for higher alcohol content?? here is my mollasses content...thanks for all the help!
is phosphoras the same as phosphates? if so yes it has .5%

[DCT]

fyi...my other washes fermented fine with this same mollasses & same amount of sugar.

[Dnderhead]

with what I could see it has a bunch of preservative,others mite be able to see it better

[DCT]

is that bad, should i dump the 10 galons of wash & start with differnt mollasses?
thanks

[DCT]

or should i add some more yeast? just checked it & it is moving a little better...

[Dnderhead]

Id be looking for molasses, not supplement.you can play with what you have if you want.
im not in to rum that much. it seems that iv read that a oxidizer like hydrogen peroxide
will help remove preservatives but i haven't tried.this by chance is not the dried molasses
is it?I ask because of all the added ingreadeants.

[kiwistiller]

well, you could piss around with it some more and maybe learn something about your yeast / molasses...
Or, if you're bored of this process and are getting impatient from your rum, just biff it, write off the materials used, and start again from scratch. Hey, maybe it's an opportunity to try some different yeasts?

The yeast bed isn't THAT valuable after all, it's your stash of dunder you want to keep safe.

[posting same time as dnderhead]

[DCT]

liquid mollasses....i will pitch a little more yeast and let it finish, sure smells good very rummy & buttery
thanks for the advise

[azeo]

Had the same trouble a while back with a whole lot of free concentrated "pure" fruit juice I was given - was slow/hard to get going, had to make a series of powerful starters, dilute the sg a bit, and eventually it took off. After more reading of the contents labelling, some containers were marked as having some preservative, and further enquiries to the source also revealed that all their juice contained preservative.

A quick trip to the bookshelf to find an old wine-making book revealed advice to gently heat juice with preservative in to drive it off, or neutralise it I guess. I think the first lot of starters I made were "sacrificial", in that they eventually neutralised the preservative.

Haven't tried repeating the experiment, but would try the heating to see if helps if i gave it another go with the juice. Following advice on this site for clarifying, degumming, and settling molasses may well also make it more amenable to the yeast, especially if the pH lowering and raising regimes followed. Then again, who knows (except someone with chemistry experience) what the effect of adding lime then acid would be to a product with a range of other chemical additives....

It does show to be careful about certain products, but especially feed with all it's "extras", either preservatives/chemicals to keep unwanted bugs away, or added minerals, supplements etc for animals, that one may not want in a wash, or in the steam and hence in the output in some form.

I was also once warned by a feed grain supplier customer support rep that their corn was treated with anti-fungal chemicals and it would be best to rinse it for my particular use. I got the impression they thought some of the chemical by-product could come through with the distillate, and it wouldn't be be very good for health, something I didn't like the sound of... That meant some quite large batches of UJSM went to the greater god in the sky, to the greater good of fuel testing, just in case, oh well....

Since then I've been far more interested in only food grade or organic products, despite the cost - seems a little safer. Organic molasses may not be too bad in bulk (well say 20L pails), but I haven't quite got round to chasing down prices in my region yet, although did find a supplier worth investigating. Bulk hospitality suppliers seem to be able to get decent mollasses too, although the source often seems to change...

[DCT]

thanks for the imput, my wash is still moving but very slow, which is ok, im in now hurry, if it sticks i will hit it with more 1118, this is the last of my feed molasses, depending how it finishes, i will run it, then get better molasses. starting a 13 gallon was of asian pears right now, my 1st fruit wash!

[LWTCS]

Fruit wash?
Tired of the rum already?

Why not stick with a 4 or 5 generation cycle and get the most out of the experience?

No matter. Good luck.

[DCT]

lol not given up on rum yet, going to multitask & have 2 washes going at once, then going to throw a ujssm wash into the rotation when the rum cycle is done trying to get a nice stalk built up and aging before winter & the holidays hit...still reworking my worm at the moment, almost all back together for a test run

[LWTCS]

I do appologize.

Recon I figure since I can hardly walk and chew gum at the same time,,,,everyone should suffer the same fate as me

Cheers
L.T.