Worm Size

[shiner153]

I only have a two gallon still that has a copper line running over and turns into a worm which is in a bucket of cooled water. I am wondering what size the worm should be. I have a 3/8" one, but should i go bigger?

[Dnderhead]

it will work with you small still.

[skow69]

I think the condenser has to be sized to the amount of heat input, rather than the volume of the boiler, but the botom line is the temperature of the product coming out. Cooler is better. If it is hot enough to be vapor, then you need more condenser. Think longer, not thicker. 1/2 inch tube won't help, but 10 or 20 more feet of 3/8 will.

Hope that helps. Cheers!

[myles]

The other issue is the water volume. You want the situation where the water is warm at the top and cold at the bottom. If it gets too hot you either need to change some of it or use a bigger worm bucket. Taken to extreems, the worm in a bucket becomes a greham condenser.

P.S. It won't matter for your small still, but for future refference it is better to use parallel smaller diameter worms instead of a single bigger diameter one. You get more cold surface area. Combine this with a slow water flow through the bucket, cold in at the bottom and hot out from the upper surface, and you get an efficient condenser. Using a slow water flow also lets you use a smaller than conventional bucket, small bucket or big bucket depends on availability of flowing water.

[shiner153]

Ok i think i am going to use a 3/8" worm, but should i get the 10 ft or should i get a 20 ft pipe?

[rad14701]

Ok i think i am going to use a 3/8" worm, but should i get the 10 ft or should i get a 20 ft pipe?

You won't get much of a worm out of a 10 foot roll... Get 20 feet and use as much as you need... It won't take long to find a use for any leftovers you might end up with...

[myles]

Make it too short and it will be annoying. Too long just means you might cool your product. 20 foot for each coil is my standard but if you use high power you will need a longer length.

3 parallel coils each one 20 foot long in this one, which is on my 6kW pot still.





This is quite nice - note the proportions in comparison to the boiler.

[skow69]

I can't stop looking at it. That's the damnedest worm I've ever seen. Were you a sculpter in a previous life?

[shiner153]

Haha that is one sweet worm

[HellsWintr]

It's the type of worm Salvador Dali would have made if he was a stiller.

[myles]

Yes it is a bit excessive. When I made it I was intending to put it on a 55 gallon dedicated stripping boiler heated with propane. So I built it to cope with about 17kW equivalent.

I never got around to building the strip boiler, so it is on my 6kW keg - just because I have it available. It now lives in a cut down 60 litre fermentation drum but it is still damn heavy when it is full of water.


Nothing compared to the 160 litre drum that it used to live in.

I am seriously considering putting it in storage (awaiting the strip boiler) and building a nice compact graham condenser for the pot still. I used to run liebigs and worms with a crappy pond style pump, however, I now use a 1.1 bar water butt pump that has a max flow of 2200 litres per hour, so I can easily accomodate a high coolant flow, compact, condenser. Top tip: invest in a good pump, it may be expensive but in the long run it is worth it.

[Mainer7]

I have a question in re to my future worm setup. I have built a 9.5 Gal. Pot still, w a 5 Gal thumper, and I then intend to run that to my worm. When I bought my copper pans @ the Scrap yard for my pot building, I also purchased some 1" copper tubing, about 10 ft long I'm guessing. I also purchased from one of the big box stores, I think 20 ft worth of 3/8" copper tubing. My intent is to step down from the 1" to the 3/8" in my condenser unit. Is this not smart to do/ frowned upon/ stupid, etc? Or is this something that can be done, n still have a positive outcome @ the end of my worm for liquid gold to come out?

[The Baker]

Yes it is a bit excessive. When I made it I was intending to put it on a 55 gallon dedicated stripping boiler heated with propane. So I built it to cope with about 17kW equivalent.

I never got around to building the strip boiler, so it is on my 6kW keg - just because I have it available. It now lives in a cut down 60 litre fermentation drum but it is still damn heavy when it is full of water.
.......

I have a coil in half a 44 gallon copper drum (55 US gallons, mine is bigger than yours).
And I recently mounted it on wheels, the trolley looks like a great big pram with the crossbar for pushing it around.

Geoff

[Mainer7]

I have a question in re to my future worm setup. I have built a 9.5 Gal. Pot still, w a 5 Gal thumper, and I then intend to run that to my worm. When I bought my copper pans @ the Scrap yard for my pot building, I also purchased some 1" copper tubing, about 10 ft long I'm guessing. I also purchased from one of the big box stores, I think 20 ft worth of 3/8" copper tubing. My intent is to step down from the 1" to the 3/8" in my condenser unit. Is this not smart to do/ frowned upon/ stupid, etc? Or is this something that can be done, n still have a positive outcome @ the end of my worm for liquid gold to come out?

Upon doing additional reading in some of the forums, I believe I may have answered my own question in re to my worm setup. I read about people mentioning "dips" or "flat spots" in their worms. This lead me to think that, while stepping down from 1" to 3/8" w a couple of reducer fittings, I may end up w a couple of "dips" due to the very fittings themselves. Conversely, all be it something I don't want to do, but in theory, my worm could avoid those "dips" due to the fittings, if I were to go the opposite way, from 3/8" to 1". Like a cave opening up on itself as you go further in. With the gradual decline that ones worm is supposed to follow, by going small to larger, the fittings would be opening up to allow the liquid to flow freely w downward "dips", like a stream. Aposingly, going from 1" down to 3/8", the fittings would slow the flow of the stream due to the liquid having to climb upwards at the junction of the fitting. There are factors however that I don't have any experience w that could override the problem of the flow upon reaching the fitting.
For example; @ what point in the worm itself does the vapor turn to liquid? If the vapor, is still in vapor form when reaching the upward junction of the fitting, then there would be no issue, as the vapor would not be slowed due to its density? But, if the vapor had since turned to liquid before the junction of the fitting, then I would assume it would run into the issue I described above. Also, depending on the slope of the worm, if there is a steep enough grade, then might the liquid have enough momentum to bypass the fitting altogether w no obstruction caused by the upward slope of the fitting? Lastly, am I thinking too much about this scenario? People must have experience w this issue who have been @ this hobby way longer than myself. Can anyone give me their thoughts on this?

[The Baker]

I have a question in re to my future worm setup. I have built a 9.5 Gal. Pot still, with a 5 Gal thumper, and I then intend to run that to my worm. When I bought my copper pans @ the Scrap yard for my pot building, I also purchased some 1" copper tubing, about 10 ft long I'm guessing. I also purchased from one of the big box stores, I think 20 ft worth of 3/8" copper tubing. My intent is to step down from the 1" to the 3/8" in my condenser unit. Is this not smart to do/ frowned upon/ stupid, etc? Or is this something that can be done, n still have a positive outcome @ the end of my worm for liquid gold to come out?

I think my worm is 5/8 all the way and from memory we just used the full ROLL of (annealed!) tube.
But I am sure you will not need that length, listen to the others who know more than I!
(That seemed too long but I just had a look and it is probably right. Fifteen metres or around fifty feet. And with around thirty gallons of water or just under 120 litres the water used to get warm with a still the same size as yours but probably running it a bit hard on gas.)

Don't try to use straight tube!
Others are more expert but I would not even THINK of using anything so small as 3/8.
If I were to be involved with building another worm I would start with a disk (probably stainless) the size of the worm, and heavy enough to remain rigid even if the worm wants to twist. You will be pulling the tube up all the time so it keeps rising and it will want to revert to the shallower original shape of the roll.
Then fix (weld?) THREE uprights to the disk (I think we started with TWO and that was hopeless, the tube did not keep rising evenly between the two but would be higher or lower, all over the place). Three should be okay, easier to use than four which would be unnecessary. You will need to decide whether the uprights should be inside or outside the coil, probably inside.
Then carefully mark the position of the tubes on the uprights, each higher than the last position of the tube; and decide whether to use welded spacers (little bars under and over the tube) or COPPER OR STAINLESS clips with COPPER OR STAINLESS pop rivets or whatever...
And go for it.
To test it put a ball bearing in the top and listen to it roll evenly all the way down until it pops out the bottom. A marble will do but not too big.
Have fun and don't make the mistakes I did.

Geoff

[Mainer7]

Thank u Geoff, good info on the worm build. I especially like the idea of the marble to test the slope of the worm. I guess i should have clarified when I said I, "purchased copper tubing". The 1" copper tubing is actually in coil form, but in a very large loop, like 20" as I measured yest. I'll need to work that down substantially to prob half of that diameter to fit in my flake stand. I still need to build my flake stand so in theory, I could work the 1" coil as tight as I can get it and then build my flake stand to suit whatever the diameter of the coil ends up being. Then the 3/8" copper tubing is also in coil form, the kind used for refrigerators. However, it sounds as though u would advise against the transition from the 1" to the 3/8" for the final length of coil in the flake stand?

[The Baker]

Mainer7, I would not use so small a tube as 3/8.
And if the coil is to remain open to the air when not in use, cover each end with some of that cleaning cloth that's full of holes (Chux in Australia) held in place with say a rubber band. That way you will not find the tube blocked with an insect or an insect nest. If it was blocked the still would build up pressure, being no longer open to the air (at the end of the tube...).
I was once very surprised to see the boiler lid lifting against the clips and blowing steam before an insect shot out of the end of the liebig!
And if you decide to locate the tube with what I called 'welded spacers (little bars under and over the tube)', you could cut little sections of suitably sized stainless U-tube/ U-section...

Geoff

[Mainer7]

Mainer7, I would not use so small a tube as 3/8.
And if the coil is to remain open to the air when not in use, cover each end with some of that cleaning cloth that's full of holes (Chux in Australia) held in place with say a rubber band. That way you will not find the tube blocked with an insect or an insect nest. If it was blocked the still would build up pressure, being no longer open to the air (at the end of the tube...).
I was once very surprised to see the boiler lid lifting against the clips and blowing steam before an insect shot out of the end of the liebig!
And if you decide to locate the tube with what I called 'welded spacers (little bars under and over the tube)', you could cut little sections of suitably sized stainless U-tube/ U-section...

Geoff

Ok, so I have since scrapped the idea of reducing down from 1" to 3/8" for my worm. I didn't like the feedback I got and other research I had done in re to 3/8" being too small. I just didn't want to risk it. Not that I don't appreciate the responses themselves! I just felt that there is enough risk in running a still in the first place, so if i can diminish / alleviate ANY part of that risk then I'm gonna do so.
So I went to my scrap yard guy again (hes now my guy cause I've been there twice), and picked up prob another 15ft of 1" copper tubing already in coil form, whuch ran me $60. Not a bad price, as i went to HD immediately after for some fittings n saw a 20ft coil of 1/2" copper for $68.
Now i dont have to worry about ANY clogs or flow issues getting hung up due to step down joints, just hopefully smoth sailing liquid gold.
So thanx all for the advice, MUCH appreciated!!!!

[The Baker]

Go, Mainer

Geoff

[Mainer7]

Check that, upon further measurement, the new 1" coil was 23", not 15", so BONUS!!! So I now have 38 ft of 1" coil for my worm!!! I'm assuming that's plenty, just keeping the downward spiral is a bit of a bitch.

[The Baker]

Check that, upon further measurement, the new 1" coil was 23", not 15", so BONUS!!! So I now have 38 ft of 1" coil for my worm!!! I'm assuming that's plenty, just keeping the downward spiral is a bit of a bitch.

That's why I suggested a heavy base that will not twist, and pre-measured mounting points on (probably the outside of) three uprights with guides welded on or holes drilled for clips.
And I would start at the bottom so it would be an upright spiral. Don't know if a professional would think that mattered.

And if you have been fooling about with it the copper may have become work hardened, it doesn't take much. You may need to anneal it as you place it in the guides (or clip it in at each point as you go). Look up annealing copper on the interweb.

I had difficulty with mine!

Geoff

[Mainer7]

Check that, upon further measurement, the new 1" coil was 23", not 15", so BONUS!!! So I now have 38 ft of 1" coil for my worm!!! I'm assuming that's plenty, just keeping the downward spiral is a bit of a bitch.

That's why I suggested a heavy base that will not twist, and pre-measured mounting points on (probably the outside of) three uprights with guides welded on or holes drilled for clips.
And I would start at the bottom so it would be an upright spiral. Don't know if a professional would think that mattered.

And if you have been fooling about with it the copper may have become work hardened, it doesn't take much. You may need to anneal it as you place it in the guides (or clip it in at each point as you go). Look up annealing copper on the interweb.

I had difficulty with mine!

Geoff

Oh yes, I plan on doing that Geoff, deff gonna take ur advice. I just meant that I have basically preformed the coil since that's the way it came, n it's tough to get it perfect, w out being connected to a baseplate or clips or whatnot yet. I have been working on my flake stand which wound up being 32" tall n like 22" diameter, looks like a friggen 55 Gal garbage can. I fabricated the old 5'x8"x1' rectangular copper flower planter into a circle/tube now and got to add strips of copper sheet that i had previously cleaned onto the bottom of the tube.
The thing that sux is that since i filleted the planter box wide open, i realized that it was a thinner copper sheet than the rest of my whole set up, so i wound up w a lot of fizures n cracks that opened up. So the inside has a lot of solder on it but who cares, its the flake stand. I do still plan on cleaning it again anyways though. So now all thats left to do is solder a bottom onto the flake stand, clean her all up n get steaming!

[Shine0n]

I have my worm 5/8" ID × 50' In a 55 gal barrel, I run 2-15.5 gal kegs and the water gets pretty warm by the end of a 23 gal run, I just use gallon milk jugs frozen with water and suspend them mid way down the barrel to keep the lower half nice and cool.

Man oh man you're going to have fun winding that 1" but you'll be fine even with a flat spots with that ID, as long as you don't kink it, I used a 45 lb steel weight to get the coil right for the barrel and then used 3 copper legs to mount. It's not pretty but it's all down hill, I didn't use the marble but a cup of water and measured what came out.

[Mainer7]

I have my worm 5/8" ID × 50' In a 55 gal barrel, I run 2-15.5 gal kegs and the water gets pretty warm by the end of a 23 gal run, I just use gallon milk jugs frozen with water and suspend them mid way down the barrel to keep the lower half nice and cool.

Man oh man you're going to have fun winding that 1" but you'll be fine even with a flat spots with that ID, as long as you don't kink it, I used a 45 lb steel weight to get the coil right for the barrel and then used 3 copper legs to mount. It's not pretty but it's all down hill, I didn't use the marble but a cup of water and measured what came out.

Great to hear from u ShineOn, I've read a lot of ur posts, good stuff. So for comparison sake, I have built a 9.5 Gal "Kentucky pot still" (from PintoShine), n a 5 gal thumper which then goes into my worm obviously. So I'm a lil less than half of what ur running. I wonder if the water in my flake stand will get warm w a smaller unit? I would have to think that w the insulating properties of copper, that my copper flake stand would stay cool? I'll just have to run it n c. I've already had to hammer my 1" copper coil to prevent a potential kink. I will use some sort of uprights n use the water test u mention, along w the marble test. I'm getting close to no longer being covered in copper dust, can't wait to run!