UK distilling IS legal!!

[st_brewer]

Hey Guys

I'm new to this thing, and I'm from good ol' blighty, lots of people are confused about this topic so I decided to descend from the northern wilderness of Newcastle to educate any other UK inhabitants of this proud forum.

Distilling alcohol for consumption or fuel NOT for retail is perfectly legal so long as you own a Rectifiers license. These are free to apply for and you MUST have one if you own a still or plan to have one.

Basically apply with drawings of your still, where you use it and what you want to produce. Then just keep a record of how much you produce and from what.

Here be the link to our great friends at the HMRC.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPort ... e=document" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You have been educated by.

The saint

[Samohon]

Welcome to HD st_brewer...

At the time of this post, distillation of spirit inside the territory of the United Kingdom is Illegal without a licence.
Yes you can apply for one, but that only alerts HMRC that you either have, plan, or want to distill.
I fly below the radar, really low... Further, its not uncommon to hear of certain individuals here making, and selling their shine.
Not so long ago there were a few polish guy's in England blew themselves up making illegal booze.

Certain quantities of wash must be produced each week, thousands of litres.
A separate still house and secure warehouse is also needed for the license to be granted.
Not to mention the health and safety aspect and the £££'s associated with it...

These 3 items alone, make the, 'going legal', attribute impossible for small scale hobbyist's such as us.
I calculated some time back to get up and running legally would cost me around £45,000.

I printed the document you linked to hardcopy some time back and studied it for a while with a friend who works in the legal dept here, so I know whats in it.
If it were so easy to go legal, I would have submitted drawings and applied a while back...

So just to recap, distillation is NOT LEGAL in the UK at this time... The US will be the first to do this hopefully IMO, then the UK will follow...
Just the way things happen I suppose...

Drop on over to the Welcome Centre... and tell us a little bout yourself...

Glad you made it, stay safe man...

[st_brewer]

Hey thanks for your reply

I was merely indicating that it's legal with the license. But did you say thousands of litres are needed to be produced? I read elsewhere that you needed a tiny still to prove you do it for personal use

[st_brewer]

Ahhhhhhhh I see you have read about the distillers license which is attached to the link above. However the rectifiers license only requires you to hold a still and keep records. Obviously you need to be safe and stop your stock disappearing.

[Dnderhead]

rectifying is redistilling spirits,not producing your own.
one exsampol is buying neutral,redistilling with herbs to make gin.

[Samohon]

+2 on what Dnderhead says... Homebrewers and winemakers enjoy the legality of the system at the moment...
AFAIK, the beer/winemakers do not need a license to produce for their own consumption and that is what HD strives for in the future...

Making home made beer and wine did not even dent the beverage industry here and in the states when it was legalised.
When NZ became legal to distill alcohol, it created a whole new taxable income for the government, the sale of stills and accessories...
Which is thriving as we speak...

I do not smoke, but the ban on pubs and public places here in the UK put a lot of bars out of business...
IMO, legalising distillation in the UK/US would not appeal to everyone and would enable the revenuers to concentrate on who was selling illegally...
I would love to go to my local and be served a distilled beverage the landlord had made himself and paid the necessary duty on...

As Dnder says, rectification is the re-distillation of spirit you have already paid tax on. Completely different...

Hope it helps...

[st_brewer]

I feel put in my Place, I am an avid home brewer and I am making the step to home distilling, ( I have a 45 gallon brewing system ) I often buy real ales brewed on site however I agree that a home distilling provision should be provided however I think the common preconception is blindness so that stops legalising lol. I might make my own enquiries as I want to produce biodiesel and stock spirits legally. Watch this space

[Dan P.]

To clarify;
It is illegal to distill alcohol without a licence in the UK, as it is illegal to rectify without a licence.
It is not possible to say which licence is easier to obtain. I would guess a rectifier's licence would be easier to get, but that's just a guess, each case is considered separately.

Further to which, Samohon is incorrect (again!) about a minimum still capacity requirement, as he is also incorrect about any requirement for a separate stillhouse etc.
The figure he suggests of £45,000 might be believable, but based on what? Rent? Equipment? Insurance? Materials? I would suggest it would correctly be a lot more.
Either licence is free, and the requirements are common sense requirements of security, safety, tax liability, and, presumably, looking like someone who knows what they are doing and is sufficiently financed.

Good luck!

-Dan

[Samohon]

To clarify;
It is illegal to distill alcohol without a licence in the UK, as it is illegal to rectify without a licence.
It is not possible to say which licence is easier to obtain. I would guess a rectifier's licence would be easier to get, but that's just a guess, each case is considered separately.

Further to which, Samohon is incorrect (again!) about a minimum still capacity requirement, as he is also incorrect about any requirement for a separate stillhouse etc.
The figure he suggests of £45,000 might be believable, but based on what? Rent? Equipment? Insurance? Materials? I would suggest it would correctly be a lot more.
Either licence is free, and the requirements are common sense requirements of security, safety, tax liability, and, presumably, looking like someone who knows what they are doing and is sufficiently financed.

Good luck!

-Dan

Just to Clarify:

From HMRC as of this post date:

2.3 Can you refuse or revoke a licence?
We may refuse to issue a licence, or revoke an existing licence, where:
the largest still to be used has a capacity below 18 hectolitres, or you cease to manufacture spirits.

Since there is 100L in 1 Hectolitre that would be an 1800L still capacity. Way above what we practice here at HOMEdistillers.org... (Correct)

9.2 Do I need to warehouse the spirits?
The spirits should be sent to an approved warehouse immediately after you have entered the details of the spirits account in your business records.

If your spirit receiver is also approved as a warehouse vat, we will consider the spirits to be warehoused as soon as the account has been taken and declared in your records.

You must either own the approved warehouse or send it to be bonded by them... More Cash... (Correct)

The 45 grand was an approximated figure now it would be a lot more... Those common sense requirements you quoted above all come with a large price tag in the UK..
Perhaps a little light reading is in order Dan P ...

Go Here to see the Law in the UK...

Good Luck...

[myles]

It is a long time since I waded through the small print, but my conclusions then were that the system was offset to make it virtually impossible to go legal for personal use. If you wish to be a (large) commercial venture, yes you can. It would be a LOT easier to set up a micro-bewery than it would be to set up as a micro-distillery.

They realy don't want you to do it, and will make it as difficult as possible to do so. Lets not forget this is the same crowd of people that banned the WI from selling home made wine to raise funds. Nowadays they sell you the bottle and you get the contents free of charge!!!

[Samohon]

Furthermore, HMRC would not grant a licence to an individual without a still-house. The beverage is for human consumption and stringent filtering and hygiene procedures are practised by all leading manufacturers, among others... Fact!

Customs: Where will you be producing your product?
Distiller: In my shed at the bottom of the garden....lol

Right out of Monty Python...

[Dan P.]

Myles- I do not doubt for a second that they would not grant a licence for personal production. They would just be making work for themselves working out whether you would be required to pay revenue on something that is not sold, but is inherently taxable otherwise.
Samohon- I have posted this information myself a number of times, and on threads in which you have been involved. Just read the text. If you don't want to because it's boring, that's fine, but please stop perpetuating this bit of misinformation; Concerning the refusal of licences for stills under 18 hectoliters, there is a big difference between "MAY refuse" and "WILL refuse" or even "MUST refuse", as the existence of a number of smaller distilleries testifies.
Concerning the different buildings that you imagine are required, imagination is about the size of it, there being no stipulation as to seperateness of bonded warehousing from other parts of the distillery or otherwise. Samohon, you even include a quote from HMRC stating that the spirits receiver could be approved as a "warehouse vat"!
I'm not trying to make you look stupid or pick a fight, but why not just read the material first, making sure you understand it?

And, if there's anyone out there who wants to set up a distillery, HMRC's only concern is securing revenue. Outside of that they are fairly liberal, if not to say amoral. I think for a professional distiller, getting the licence will be the least of your problems.

[myles]

It is POSSIBLE if you wish to set up a commercial business. There are a few UK micro-distilleries most of which are actually using a refiners licence.

Caorunn, a small-production gin made in Balmenach whisky distillery in Speyside, is even more tricky to define. Brand manager Iby Bakos isn’t too keen to associate with any micro-distillation movement, saying, ‘On one hand we’re small-batch distilled, but we’d still like to be a brand. We’re making 1,000 bottles in a batch, so we’re not really micro-volume.’ She adds: ‘We do say it’s hand-crafted, though. Craft means something that’s made by hand to the highest standards, so Caorunn is hand-crafted.’

No matter what you call it, it’s not particularly easy to get a licence from HM Revenue and Customs to distil in small quantities. Officially, a still with a capacity of at least 1,800 litres must be in use to be granted a distilling licence. To get an exception to this was ‘pretty challenging’, says Sipsmith’s Galsworthy. ‘They needed to know who was behind it, what our ambitions were... it took two years,’ he says. ‘There’s more red tape than there needs to be.’

Full article here:http://imbibe.com/article/getting-into-spirit-rise-rise

For NON-COMMERCIAL purposes which is a founding principle of this entire forum, I would say it is just about impossible. I have never heard of a single license being issue for a local community venture, non-commercial, or even not for profit venture.

The craft or artisan non-commercial distillery, is dead and burried in the UK at this moment in time.

[myles]

IN ADDITION

I think your first post is inaccurate. Can you provide ANY evidence at all of anyone in the UK that has been issued either a distillers license or a rectifiers license, on the basis that it was issued NOT for retail.

I have been looking for years and I have never heard of a single case being publicised. Whilst it might technically be possible, until such a license has actually been issued it is just not realistic.

[Samohon]

IN ADDITION

I think your first post is inaccurate. Can you provide ANY evidence at all of anyone in the UK that has been issued either a distillers license or a rectifiers license, on the basis that it was issued NOT for retail.

I have been looking for years and I have never heard of a single case being publicised. Whilst it might technically be possible, until such a license has actually been issued it is just not realistic.

+1, unless its issued specifically for retail (hence duty) HMRC are not so easy at granting the licence...

FYI Dan P, I read and understood the docs on HMRC's website perfectly....
This thread is titled, "UK distilling IS legal!!", which is completely wrong... Understand?

[Dan P.]

IN ADDITION

I think your first post is inaccurate. Can you provide ANY evidence at all of anyone in the UK that has been issued either a distillers license or a rectifiers license, on the basis that it was issued NOT for retail.

My first post? I never suggested that either licence had ever been issued for someone to distill purely for their own use, if it's me you are referring to.

[Dan P.]

Officially, a still with a capacity of at least 1,800 litres must be in use to be granted a distilling licence.

There is that important bit of disinformation again. It's simply not what's ritten in the legislation. Obviously the words above are not your words, myles.
Having said that, the Sipsmith quote you also provided comes from a distillery with a 300 litre still, and I am 90% sure they distil from mash, i.e. not rectify, and they are a fairly recent set-up.
I have actually spoken to the licence issuing office at HMRC. They were actually very friendly, but I expect getting a licence is a bit like asking the bank for a big loan; You have to prove that you are not a dreamer or a crook.

[Dan P.]

This thread is titled, "UK distilling IS legal!!", which is completely wrong... Understand?

Also wrong is your understanding of the documents you claim to have read... Understand?

[rad14701]

Enough with the he said she said bullshit...

The regulations are available to all, and I have taken the time to quickly read both the distillers and rectifier/compounder, and any conjecture should be taken up with the governing authority rather than argued here... One member stating that they know more about the regulations than the next guy is petty bantering at best...

The one thing that I have not seen clearly stated, and which would most likely require a telephone call to the authority, is whether a distillers license is required to be a rectifier or compounder... My logic tells me you'd need one...

Let's keep things a bit more civil here...

[Samohon]

My last word on this:

Not only have I read and understood the docs from HMRC, but my legal buddy has read and understood them also...
Now as Rad pointed out, it only takes a telephone call to the appropriate dept to have the question answered...

I'm where I want to be with the hobby, besides, i'm too busy paying off the mortgage to want to attract that type of attention...

But if someone else has the bottle to pick-up the phone..?

[Dnderhead]

so where does this all git you? its legal most places with the proper license but the costs is more than you'd drink in a lifetime. this whould not be reasonable for a hobby.old Gorge started this with high tax to crowd out the competition.

[JoeyJoe]

I applied for the license a couple of weeks ago.

They sent me a standardized letter back (recorded post) saying that they only give out licenses to businesses etc.
I don't think they want to hand out licenses for home use.

I will scan the letter shortly and upload it.

[JoeyJoe]

This is the reply I received. I have taken out my personal info.

[RumRaider]

Are they denying your request or just telling you they'll get back to you later for more info?

[JoeyJoe]

Are they denying your request or just telling you they'll get back to you later for more info?

Letter scanned above. They seem to only want to issue licenses for businesses that need it.

I did state it was for home use and experimentation, but looks like that doesn't matter.

I'm unsure if this means I don't need one, or that I can't do it.

[RumRaider]

You may very well be right about them turning it down for the reason you stated. It just looks to me like they aren't giving you a decision yet, just telling you some polocy and saying they'll get back to you later.

[JoeyJoe]

You are right,

I read it again, looks like they haven't given a decision yet. It does also say that I would get a visit?

[RumRaider]

The part about the visit and the part about making all information easily available to them, does sound a bit ominous. On the other hand, they are bureaucrats, and that means they may also be anxious to move on to bigger things. You may want to get your ducks in a row for awhile just to be safe. Please keep us posted!

[Dan P.]

Interesting, thanks for posting this JoeyJoe.
One of the "grey areas" around home distilling in the UK is that there is no proviso at all for ethanol that you are going to drink at home. There is however, some sort of precedent in that you can distill a certain amount of "bio-ethanol" at home for fuel use for off road use (licence required). As long as it is used for off road use, it is not taxable (if I remember correctly). Look under the HMRC section for bioethanol.
Revenue pertains to revenue on trade. Just as I am not expected to pay VAT on that natty pitchfork I whittled for myself, so it's logical that ethanol for your own use would be untaxed.
Now, the sticking point is that operating or even owning distilling equipment without a licence is a criminal offence. The people who give out said licences are HMRC, who are only interested in alcohol being traded. If you are distilling alcohol for your own use, HMRC has no legitimate interest that I can think of, as you aren't dodging taxes and they aren't losing any revenue. They also have no interest in granting you a licence, and we now know that there are guidelines which say they won't grant one except for commercial purposes. That may put you on the moral high ground as far as criminal prosecution goes, but I don't think moral high ground gets you very far in the UK these days.

[Dan P.]

An interesting and related web page can be seen at "freesmoking dot co dot uk", click on tobacco law europe, and "more info" at the UK entry.
It includes a (to me unsurprisingly) sympathetic correspondence from an HMRC officer.
Luckily in this country we do not come equipped with beetle browed "local law" hiding in the bushes.
You are more likely to be bored to death with bullet-points, guidelines, projected outcomes, EU directives, etc. etc. than anything more sinister.