a new generation

[googe]

Hey all, been thinking this for a while, as many I'm sure have. Lots of our inspiring veteran members don't post any more, I miss it, but that's life, we move on, get different interests, get old. I feel the new gen doesn't have fire with distilling, is that because the past greats have done it all?. There just seems to be so much copying of ideas and no new great ideas. Them veteran members with insight, looked at things, and thought, hmm, there must be a better way to do it. Like od with his plated column, mashrookie with his knowledge of what goes where and why, kiwi stiller for his interpretation of distilling procedures into words on your screen. So many others. We need to step up and have some insight into something we are passionate about. It's bordering on getting boring.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

I was thinking along the same lines there googe. Reading through all the different sections here i have noticed that most people will go with what is already been done simply because it is easier. But in saying that. Back in the day it was a lot easier to come up with something new because there wasn't that much knowledge there in the first place. New ideas will take a lot longer to develop due to the fact that most paths have been tried. I think that the next break throughs will be more along the lines of different ways of using the stills that have already been tried and tested. For example Big Swedes MixMaster valve. And also making things easier to make. For exampl DAD300s CM still using corrugated SS gas line instead of a copper coil.

In saying that, I am young, and I like messing around with things, trying to make them better/more efficient/easier to use. And I intend to document my trails and errors, most of which I will probably post here for others to learn from. Who knows, maybe I will stumble upon the next best thing, or maybe I will flop because my forefathers have already discovered all there is. Only time and possibly new advancements in different fields of science will tell.

[NZChris]

Old tried and true doesn't need to be endlessly spoon fed by the old timers who put it out there in the first place, it is there for those who can be bothered to look, and new ideas have been put forward recently so that those who want to experiment can have something to play with.

I don't see anything to complain about.

[googe]

Well said tokorao! . I'm talking more about, totally new ideas, not varied ideas already proven. Like, totally new stills, way there operated, the parts for them.ect. Bigswede does have some insight that's great to see, I think he could develope something in time. There's no limits. That's what I'm saying Chris, the old timers probably get tired of it, others do. have you got an example of the recent ideas?. I do miss things like everyone, so may not be in tune with everything new.

Cheers

[NZChris]

I've put up a couple and there have been some interesting posts on vacuum and continuous.

You can't expect something new every day, the whole brewing thing is an exercise in patience.

[Bushman]

I think that ideas come from knowledge and many need to completely understand the processes then start thinking on different ways to make it better. We had an outbreak of great ideas a few years back because most of the old timers started with pot stills, but when some moved into reflux there was a lot to learn. After the boka design people started wanting faster production and went to larger diameters this opened a whole new door to thought and design. I am thinking we need a reason to change designs or improve on them. Some of the areas of exploration that are fairly resent have been in filtering processes and aging techniques.

[Doogie]

The way I see it is yes, the technology has matured greatly since the days of old. We know more about materials, we have people and companies building simple and complex stills. Unfortunately new ideas are conveyed 2 ways - either thru You Tube where new people think the idea is proven and tested and true, and then we have people put new stuff here.

Unfortunately, we all know, the first responders to these ideas are usually the most negative ones. But unfortunately, as we all know, there is a sub-regime here of active posters that instead of posting constructive comments or a hint of what to look for, they usually mock the OP and/or give the boilerplate "go use the search function".

I think this site suffers from too much information. It is great to say "Go read the UJSSM or Birdwatchers recipe", but at over 180 pages long, this is stupid. But back on the topic, I think you will get more innovation and new ideas simply by condensing the info. Our biggest developments will come in 2 sections - fermentation/recipes and hardware.

For recipes, the tried and true should offer a locked topic, and condensed to one posting - the recipe. Not someone's ideas, thoughts, successes, BS, etc as all that bloats the recipe thread and buries the useful additional info. For example - UJSSM - this should be one post, then maybe a tag on describing you can use barley, oat, etc, dextrose, etc, etc ... once it has been tried and verified. To discuss it, there should be a UJSSM discussion in the recipe development.

For Hardware, there are about 17.3 million different documented ways to build a still ... and massive monsterous discussions about them. This makes "go read" option of teaching absolutely f'ing useless ... people are inherently lazy/efficent - this leads people to youtubing and getting fast advice from idiots.

I have mentioned to a few in management here that new members should be provided a basic start up tutorial - we need to teach them to make a simple wash, simple pot still, simple distillation and start introducing the fundamentals ... which then can lead to cleaned up and organized information that this place has. This will in turn lead to people getting better faster, and give them confidence in what they are doing, and then they can start to contribute.

What we do here is the equivalent to getting a teenager to get the drivers license, walk him up to the space shuttle on the launch pad, hand him a stack of 5" manuals and say "just go for a ride" and when he asks for help on learning how to light the thing off, we yell at him to "search" the manuals ... this is part of the reason why innovation will stagnate - maturity of the process, the over/unsorted information available here, and how some of us mock and shit on those that ask for help or offer ideas.

[rad14701]

Just about every variation on a theme has been covered as far as new ideas goes... There are only so many ways to heat a liquid into its vapor state and then condense it back into liquid again in a purer form... And from the hobby aspect there are more limitations than in the industrial world...

We constantly see "engineers" joining and thinking they have some mystical prowess that will allow them to come up with new and improved methods, only to find that their ideas have already been conceived and tried... The fact remains that most inventions and improvements in the world today have been made by non-engineers and then had the theories confirmed by said engineers... They essentially disseminate and confirm why something works the way it does...

We artisans have pretty much pushed the limits for hobby scale home distillation, but I keep hoping that there are new frontiers that don't simply require automation or hi-tech concepts beyond the reach of your average hobby distiller... Many of the minor refinements and improvements we see here in these forums wouldn't have been possible years ago so I still have hope that there are still a few new ideas to come...

[bearriver]

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

If someone can take a popular current design and make it just 1% better, then I consider that a large success. Look at car manufactures for instance. That is how modern innovation often works, by slightly tweaking the work done before them.

[googe]

Good points everyone, I guess as we get more advanced it gets harder and focus changes. Like you said bushman, people are messing more with the final product now, and ferments. Also seems like everyones doing ag now too, might have to get into that!. But I still live in hope of some mind bending still ideas, can't help myself lol.

[NZChris]

You could try my light bending idea. Might not be mind bending, but it is fun to play with. I'll have more time to play with it this winter now that the still is parked up. I have my eye out for copper to build a pot still head incorporating a cyclone. I don't think that's been done before.

[Doogie]

Bear makes a good point - it is ... I hate the word easy, but maybe "more discoverable" to make the initial leaps and improvements. Dropping lead, using copper/stainless, developing something other than a pot still in the woods ... but Bear is right, a lot of the "low hanging fruit" has been picked ... now the new discoveries will be further apart, and less incremental, if regular discovery paths are realized. This makes it more important to reorganize information to further development, and why it is important not to drive away people who push envelopes, propose "stupid" ideas, etc. Discussions, even if they are a bit repetative to people who have been here a long time, can lead to more or something else. Think of them like frogs ... some you will kiss and it will taste like shit, some you will kiss and you will get goofy and think a bit like them, and once in a while, you will plant a wet smacker on one who will come up with something really cool ...

[wv_cooker]

You know Bushman has said it well, in days before there were discussions started on packing, plate theory, cuts, all things distilling. Active participation in those discussions would lead you to a better understanding of how things work and why. from there a few new ideas fell out. As some have pointed out I see discussions started from the excitement of new members just wanting to get started that get quashed before they get started. I also see some that need to be quashed as well. But realistically I don't see many discussions of ways to improve your product or improve cooling efficiency, or when there is a discussion started it is stopped in about 5 post's because no one is interested or everybody would rather bicker than discuss rationally. It seems everybody is waiting on someone else to find that new idea rather than look for it themselves lately. I personally have been in several discussions where I have pointed to the threads with links and written lengthy explanations only to be asked question after question without trying to learn themselves. It is an interactive hobby if you want new you first must learn the old and why it works, then as Rad has pointed out you will find it has probably been done before. But once in a great while someone like googe will come up with a plate design that works and we just don't know why yet but it gives us something new to look forward to discussing. So it's not a lack of new it is a lack of interest in learning and this is a hobby of constant learning as I see it, My 2 cents.

[Od1tspyd3r]

Read this whole post couple of times and debated with my self wether to post or not and came up with,, us new guys at least my self consider what the veterans have to say as law or at minimum baseline. So dive in to this new hobby with the mind that what has been done is the standard, learn it get comfortable with it then tweak it, just think there are so many n00bs that the learning curve on the younger gen for mechanical type stuff takes a bit longer.

[NZChris]

I don't think Googe's post is aimed at noobs, Od1tspyd3r.

I think there have been very good ideas put forward over the past few months. They are not all cataloged in some kind of order and I don't expect anyone has the time to do that for all of the thousands of small pieces of information that make up the whole. Those who are interested will find them in their searches, but for the majority of new distillers, such minutiae isn't of any value and can make the hobby seem far more complicated than it really is.

[Od1tspyd3r]

I don't think Googe's post is aimed at noobs, Od1tspyd3r.

I think there have been very good ideas put forward over the past few months. They are not all cataloged in some kind of order and I don't expect anyone has the time to do that for all of the thousands of small pieces of information that make up the whole. Those who are interested will find them in their searches, but for the majority of new distillers, such minutiae isn't of any value and can make the hobby seem far more complicated than it really is.

I didnt take it as a shot NZchris. I work in IT and have come across the same type of thing a millon ways to solve a problem and no one place to look at all the solutions. HD has done a superb job of collecting knowledge and fueling the growth of the hobby and educateing those who are TRULY interested.

[Buccaneer Bob]

If it's any consolation, the guys who came before you were probably bored by your posts, Googe.

No, seriously, it's not that we newbies aren't trying as hard as the guys who came before us, or that we aren't as passionate about what we're doing.

I think that there's just a certain bell-curve to it: the biggest advances in home distilling came earlier, and now we're making smaller advances.

I don't think there will be as many advances in hardware, because there's so much to be said for: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

But there is a lot of room for improvement in processes.

I want to see some people come up with a head-free fermentation or yeast, an all-grain process that's simpler than anything we have now, and how about a "made-from-scratch" amylase enzyme?

I want to see somebody come up with a way to either generate or synthesize amylase, like a "sour dough starter" method, so I can just reach inside my refrigerator and grab a fresh cup of amylase enzyme any time I need it.

Or how about this: I want a "Mr. Saccharifier" where I can toss my leftover mashed potatoes, stale bread, etc., and have it automatically saccharified.

Finally, I want more countries to legalize home distilling so we can have an international taste-off of home distillers' liquors and the products from the pros, just so we can spank the pros silly for their abysmal quality standards -- think "Bottle Shock for Liquors".

So, Googe, you still think we newbies are lame?

[FullySilenced]

I have posted on most all the forums at some point.... new things have a tendency to get stepped on a bit...new ideas that change someones tried and true method, always catches some heat...

HD has some open minded people willing to try a new idea or two and there are few who wouldn't change from a horse and buggy to a car... takes all types to make the work go round...

I keep looking for that perfect wash... that makes that perfect sipping drink... the search continues...

until then happy stillin,

FS

[googe]

Yes bob they did, and still do lol. I am in no way saying noobs are lame, dumb, no brain, I'm one myself!. every time I log on I see 50000 boka, vm, lm builds and questions, just making my head spin!. I am in no way saying it's bad, there easy to do and work well, and of the persons happy, then all good. I'm very build focused and not all are, I have a restless mind and get bored inside my head easy!. I guess I miss the old conversations where theories eget hammered out, I never posted on them.much because it was always so full on understanding and keeping up, but I read them.over and over, still do. Like mr's packing thread, I learnt so much from that about how still work. That lead me to trying different things that improved my stilling ten fold!. I'm glad most are happy with how they view the path distilling is going, were all different. As I said, I just want more, and that's my path. Thanks for all the input . Back to researching!.

[Bushman]

Looking at heartcuts 2 plated build got me to thinking. Plates have been around in the industrial section for a while and it wasn't until OD brought it to a hobby level that the big explosion in design began with hobby size, adding downcomers, perforated vs bubble, etc. Unless I missed it at the hobby level I haven't seen anyone design a plated still that you could rotate the plates thus going from say 6 plates to 3 and vise versa so depending on what you are making you could adjust your still like the commercial guys do.

[googe]

What do you mean about rotate them bushman?, do you mean move them around?, or actually rotate them in the column?. A few have plate disablers or modular for mixing plates. Is that what you mean?.

[Bushman]

What do you mean about rotate them bushman?, do you mean move them around?, or actually rotate them in the column?. A few have plate disablers or modular for mixing plates. Is that what you mean?.

I believe so, the plates rotate 90 degrees to disable them. I have seen them on commercial rigs but if they have been done at the hobby level I missed it!

[googe]

Don't think ive seen anything like that bushman, be interesting to see if someone's done it!.

[Bushman]

I've seen them done manually with a lever on the side of the still that controls the plate and also automatically demonstrated at the ADI national conference. I will see if I can research a picture for you!

[SoMo]

I get what Googe is saying and it's not targeting noobs but those who are satisfied with status quo. I've been on HD as a member since late winter, in that time to now I've gone from Ujssm and sweet feed to doing AG's and playing with grain bills. My .02$ is that we all must progress at our pace and be willing to keep moving forward, that said the negativity and superior mind set keeps people from sharing their new ideas or experiments. I played around with some step fermenting and did some pretty neat stuff, will I post it nope too many people looking down rather than across. The ceiling is held in place by those who think they control things until that is changed people won't be willing to share their success and failures so much. An open mind is a wonderful thing, seek and find, the journey not the destination.

[Bushman]

This is not the best example but if you look on the right side of this column you will see a handle that can be rotated to turn off the bottom plate. Usually on the commercial stills they have a handle at each plate so they can control their HETP.

[googe]

We couldn't twist your arm to share your ferment idea somo? . Thanks bushman, I have seen them handles in pics but didn't know what they were for!. Would love to go to a conference like that!!!, so hard to see what commercial people are doing, just by searching online!. Would love to see that in the flesh!.

[bearriver]

Don't think ive seen anything like that bushman, be interesting to see if someone's done it!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coSov_Lx8yU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Watch this. It's a 7 minute Dnews video at St. George distillery making apple brandy through a flute. Their rig has the type of plates Bushman is referring to. Your could fast forward to 2:30 to see it function, but the video is worth watching all the way through.

[googe]

Thanks bearriver!, that's the type that lifts the bubble cap off the plate of I'm seeing it right. I think that's been talked about here before, I remember reading about it somewhere . Great idea and pretty simple.

[S-Cackalacky]

I think sometimes we just don't recognize the innovation happening in front of us (at the moment) until it becomes common practice. I can think of a few things just off the top of my head - spp and lava rock packing, the CC-VM column, nuke and other forced aging techniques, new uses for the old-timer thumper, new/simpler building techniques for some of the most mundane things. Something as simple as the use of water heater elements has only recently become commonplace. Even some of the most die-hard propane cookers have weened themselves away from it in favor of electric. And, I'm only scratching the surface.

Things ARE changing, but we just standing a little too close to it to recognize it.