MY SUPER SIMPLE CONTROLLER

[UnSub]

[UnSub]

This one good then? Lol

[BasementBrewer]

This one good then? Lol

It's perfect! Looks exactly like the one I ended up using

[Hound Dog]

This one good then? Lol

That' the one that I use also.

[ksarrow]

This explains solid state relays pretty good.

http://www.phidgets.com/docs/Solid_Stat ... _Resistive

[UnSub]

Referring to the pictures in this thread and the discussion of neutral v ground has cause me a little concern...

I have not finished my controller yet but am confused on the 220vac wiring... I'll try to explained what I have and someone can chime in and tell me where (if) I went wrong here.

My 220 cord comes in and:
Green goes to enclosure grounding lug,
White goes to white for element line.
Black goes to #1 post on SSR

The 500k ohm pot is wired to #3,#4 on SSR

The SSR is naturally grounded to the box

I have a 20vdc power supply wired to #1 post on SSR and to the grounding lug, then 20v to the 24v fan (will this be an issue?)

The element:
(blk) goes to #2 lug on SSR,
White to power supply white
Green to enclosure
(Element is grounded to keg with a Brewers hardware TCx1"NPS element fixture)


Thanks- I'll post some pics after work if my description isn't clear.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Referring to the pictures in this thread and the discussion of neutral v ground has cause me a little concern...

I have not finished my controller yet but am confused on the 220vac wiring... I'll try to explained what I have and someone can chime in and tell me where (if) I went wrong here.

My 220 cord comes in and:
Green goes to enclosure grounding lug,
White goes to white for element line.
Black goes to #1 post on SSR

The 500k ohm pot is wired to #3,#4 on SSR

The SSR is naturally grounded to the box

I have a 20vdc power supply wired to #1 post on SSR and to the grounding lug, then 20v to the 24v fan (will this be an issue?)

The element:
(blk) goes to #2 lug on SSR,
White to power supply white
Green to enclosure
(Element is grounded to keg with a Brewers hardware TCx1"NPS element fixture)


Thanks- I'll post some pics after work if my description isn't clear.

I have to assume that the Blk and White are L1 and L2 of the 220Vac line. I also have to assume that the 24Vdc supply is used for running a fan. If this the case, the input to the 24Vdc supply should go to the Blk and Wht leads. The output shouldn't attach to either. Grn (gnd / PE) should attach to the element enclosure as you have stated. If the 24Vdc supply isn't rated for 240Vac, then you should have a neutral in order to generate 120Vac. Never use Gnd as the neutral. Neutral is a grounded conductor, but Gnd must no carry current except in a fault condition.

BTW, White is defined as the neutral conductor, and green or green with yellow stripe is defined as ground. I understand why you are using white as L2 because you are using a standard 2 conductor + ground cable. Convention is L1 is black, Red is L2 and blue or orange is L3 (if 3 phase). The main thing that I'm trying to pint out is that gnd should never carry current except for fault conditions.

If you really want to get into the down and dirty, NFPA 79 pertains. This the spec for industrial controls, which this what this is really.

edit: for clarification.

[UnSub]

I have 12/3 w ground soow (blk,wht,red,grn). I can use that to supply the controls 110ac/20vdc supply by using blk/red for L1(110),L2(110), Ground the box with green which would also run to the element/keg connection with 12/2 w ground soow, WHITE would only be used as a neutral for the 110vac along with either L1 or L2..

Sound correct?

[RedwoodHillBilly]

I have 12/3 w ground soow (blk,wht,red,grn). I can use that to supply the controls 110ac/20vdc supply by using blk/red for L1(110),L2(110), Ground the box with green which would also run to the element/keg connection with 12/2 w ground soow, WHITE would only be used as a neutral for the 110vac along with either L1 or L2..

Sound correct?

That sounds good. +1 on the severe service wiring (soow), never hurts to be safe. Glad you have got it. It is amazing how many think that Gnd = Neutral. BTW, I like the element adapter that you chose, I use them also, wouldn't use any thing else.

[UnSub]

Another thought. The relay I am using:

Wouldn't it make sense to put 425-450k ohm resistance pre-loaded between the #3 and #4 posts? Sense it's range starts at 470k and ends at 560k?

I'm assuming that it's specified operating range being 90k, adding 450 (470 would seem to be best) and a 100k ohm pot would allow for much more control from 0-100 on the pot..?..

Doesn't that make any sense?

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Another thought. The relay I am using:

Wouldn't it make sense to put 425-450k ohm resistance pre-loaded between the #3 and #4 posts? Sense it's range starts at 470k and ends at 560k?

I'm assuming that it's specified operating range being 90k, adding 450 (470 would seem to be best) and a 100k ohm pot would allow for much more control from 0-100 on the pot..?..

Doesn't that make any sense?

Not quite, the 470k to 560K is just a range of acceptable values for the total resistance of the pot, not the control range.

[Sgt Stedenko]

/rant on

It kills me you guys will spend $50 to $100 bucks on parts for your electric setup, hundreds on a column and boiler, hundreds on accessories, fermenters, grain, yeast, enzymes, etc. but $5 worth of wire nuts and spade terminals is beyond your budget.

We preach safety here non stop. Electrical tape is not a safe way to wire up anything, especially something with 30 amps and 240 volts.

Burning down your house or the the place you rent isn't cool because you're too cheap to do things correctly.

Also, keep your schematics which are incorrect off the forums. They only will lead to disaster.

If you are unsure if a schematic is correct, it's okay to post for a review, but if there are errors, fix the errors and repost the correct schematic.

/rant off

[UnSub]

RedwoodHillbilly:

When I ordered my pots, I ordered 500k ohm but was sent 250k ohm. That is what initially got me thinking about the operating range. Now that you cleared that up and I understand that the spec is for acceptable range of pot(s) that can be used.

Although I have a 250k ohm pot, I can still add a 250k ohm resistor and use what I was sent right?

Sgt:

I thought this particular thread was pretty straight forward- I'm not sure what I missed that safety was placed wayside.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

RedwoodHillbilly:

When I ordered my pots, I ordered 500k ohm but was sent 250k ohm. That is what initially got me thinking about the operating range. Now that you cleared that up and I understand that the spec is for acceptable range of pot(s) that can be used.

Although I have a 250k ohm pot, I can still add a 250k ohm resistor and use what I was sent right?

No, you won't have full range. I'm pretty sure you won't get full power. It's been while since I have designed triac circuits. If this is the same circuit that you find in cheap dimmers, you won't get full power.

There is an ugly hack for your situation that I don't recommend. Only use it if you must run it right now, then remove it when you get the correct part. You could add a spst switch across the fixed 250K resistor. This would act as a "range" switch. open you would have low range, and closed it would be high range. Not recommended, but sometimes we do what we have to do in a pinch.

edit: added ugly hack

[RedwoodHillBilly]

/rant on

Electrical tape is not a safe way to wire up anything, especially something with 30 amps and 240 volts.

/rant off

Not strictly true. NFPA 79 section 13.1.2.1 allows electrical tape to be used as insulation on a splice. Section 13 talks about wiring practices. I agree with you about using bad practices. Even wire nuts aren't really allowable. Considering that we are talking about an industrial controller, not house wiring, different rule apply. They are stricter than household wiring rules. But best practices are a good idea in any case.

[BasementBrewer]

/

Also, keep your schematics which are incorrect off the forums. They only will lead to disaster.

If you are unsure if a schematic is correct, it's okay to post for a review, but if there are errors, fix the errors and repost the correct schematic.

/rant off

Personally I don't have a problem with people posting their wrong schematics. Anybody who is actually taking the time to read through this whole post is going to scroll through and be able to see the explanation on what that person did wrong. Yes it would be ideal if people would post the corrected schematics, but I don't think it's a requirement. People are coming here to replicate cranky's controller. Other incorrect schematics can simply serve as a lesson learned to other readers. Then again it's cranky's post, so I will follow suit with whatever he has to say on the subject.

[UnSub]

Redwoodhillbilly:

I stopped at Radio Shack and found this one

[RedwoodHillBilly]

That'll work. Much better than doing an ugly hack.

edit: removed bad advice.

[cranky]

/

Also, keep your schematics which are incorrect off the forums. They only will lead to disaster.

If you are unsure if a schematic is correct, it's okay to post for a review, but if there are errors, fix the errors and repost the correct schematic.

/rant off

Personally I don't have a problem with people posting their wrong schematics. Anybody who is actually taking the time to read through this whole post is going to scroll through and be able to see the explanation on what that person did wrong. Yes it would be ideal if people would post the corrected schematics, but I don't think it's a requirement. People are coming here to replicate cranky's controller. Other incorrect schematics can simply serve as a lesson learned to other readers. Then again it's cranky's post, so I will follow suit with whatever he has to say on the subject.

WOW, I go AFK for a few days and this thread just takes on a life of it's own. I've not said anything since I got back because the more knowledgeable electrical people have done such a good job of helping people. Thank you for that more knowledgeable people

As far as posting schematics I really don't have a problem with people seeking advice because this thread is about helping people and posting schematics is part of that. There is a very long and painful to read thread about electrical controllers that may be better monitored for such advice as well as Jimbo's thread on going electric, which is also getting painfully long. I do think it might be a good idea to show before and after schematics if one is posted and corrected.

I know some of the confusion in grounding that comes up is my fault since in the original post I incorrectly used the terms ground and neutral interchangeably and by the time the mistake was realized it was too late for me to edit it. I need to find the time to read through and ask a mot to make the necessary corrections to try to prevent future problems.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

I know some of the confusion in grounding that comes up is my fault since in the original post I incorrectly used the terms ground and neutral interchangeably and by the time the mistake was realized it was too late for me to edit it. I need to find the time to read through and ask a mot to make the necessary corrections to try to prevent future problems.

Please do. It is a safety issue. I know that I preach a lot about the fact that Gnd is not Neutral, but it just may help protect someone in the event of an electrical failure. Safety 1st, right?

[Sgt Stedenko]

/rant on

Electrical tape is not a safe way to wire up anything, especially something with 30 amps and 240 volts.

/rant off

Not strictly true. NFPA 79 section 13.1.2.1 allows electrical tape to be used as insulation on a splice. Section 13 talks about wiring practices. I agree with you about using bad practices. Even wire nuts aren't really allowable. Considering that we are talking about an industrial controller, not house wiring, different rule apply. They are stricter than household wiring rules. But best practices are a good idea in any case.

Pretty sure NEC overrules NFPA all day long in the world of electric code.

When I see people using their boxes as a portable device (not mounted to a wall) and not using strain relief/cable clamp connectors on their cable penetrations (sorry folks, cheap rubber grommets dont work) there is a risk of that taped connector coming loose when the cables are constantly being jostled.

Cranky,
I wasnt trying to jack your thread. I found your thread was the most helpful is putting together the parts list for my box.

I think out WV friend said it best. "If you cant afford to do this hobby right, stick to knitting."

Trying to get this hobby accepted as a legit endeavor by the government means we all have to step up our game.
I saw the same issues in the medical cannabis business with shitty wiring jobs of HID lighting and ventilation equipment causing fires, setting back legitimization of the industry.
Burning down a structure with faulty wiring makes us all look like Tickle.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Pretty sure NEC overrules NFPA all day long in the world of electric code.

The NEC code that you're referring to is formally known as NFPA 70. This is for buildings.

What does NFPA 70 address?
The NEC addresses the installation of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables and raceways in commercial, residential, and industrial occupancies.

NFPA 79 is for industrial machines / controllers.

What does NFPA 79 address?
Requirements apply to electrical/electronic equipment, apparatus, or systems supplied as part of industrial machines operating from a nominal voltage of 600 volts or less, and commencing at the point of connection of the supply to the electrical equipment of the machine.

We're not building a house, we're building an electronic controller for what is properly an industrial machine (on the hobby scale, but still an industrial machine).

[UnSub]

So.. Anyways..

If I am not suppose to use wirenuts; what then? A bus bar for a single connection? I'm not being facetious- I'm being serious. I only what to do this once and correct. And since I'm running 12/3+G to the controller- then how do I color code the wires feeding the element? I'm guessing green,blk and red? If so, I'll cut the white out at both ends. Or is it acceptable to use 12/2+G for the element (preferred method because I have a limited amount of 12/3+G) line and mark the white with a piece of red tape at both connections?

What color leg supplies the relay?

What color comes out of the relay to element?

Red in, red out?

Cross the blacks in a bus-bar?



I'm running out of crimp terminals:)


Edited for clarification

[RedwoodHillBilly]

So.. Anyways..

If I am not suppose to use wirenuts; what then? A bus bar for a single connection? I'm not being facetious- I'm being serious. I only what to do this once and correct. And since I'm running 12/3+G to the controller- then how do I color code the wires feeding the element? I'm guessing green,blk and red? If so, I'll cut the white out at both ends. Or is it acceptable to use 12/2+G for the element line and mark the white with a piece of red tape at both connections?

You don't have to meet code, it is however a good idea to use best practices whenever possible. Terminal blocks are best, but I know not everyone has them available. I'm not sure what your architecture is, but if you can, just put crimp lugs on your wires and put them under screw terminals for the SSR, outlet, etc. Yes it is acceptable to remark wire colors. If you are using 240V then convention is Blk is L1 and Red is L2, and Grn is always Gnd. Also, keep it neat and secure your wires and make good strong connections. Since the wiring is going to be in a box that you can open, you don't want a lot of flexing. You also don't want to put stress on connections, that's one of the reason wirenuts aren't a very good idea. Do the best you can and remember, neatness counts. If it looks good, it probably is.

What color leg supplies the relay?
What color comes out of the relay to element?
Red in, red out?
Cross the blacks in a bus-bar?

You can break either leg to put the controller in. The other leg just goes to the element direct. If you have butt splice, that would work for the other leg, solder and heatshrink are good also. Uninsulated buss bar is not a safe way to do it. Try to keep iverything insulated and finger safe if possible. getting bit by 240V ain't no fun, ask how I know

[UnSub]

It's going to look f'ing awesome! And I will try to post a clear pic of the unit when it's done for those that want to run 4wire and have 110 for a cooling fan. No bells-n-whistles on this one, just clean,new parts and a clean build. I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions! Hopefully I don't put it together and find I could have color coded it better because I just used the last of my terminals! Lol.

[rad14701]

/rant on

<SNIP>

Also, keep your schematics which are incorrect off the forums. They only will lead to disaster.

If you are unsure if a schematic is correct, it's okay to post for a review, but if there are errors, fix the errors and repost the correct schematic.

/rant off

In a perfect world this might be an option... However, here in these forums you only have 48 hours, as I recall, to edit posts before they are locked from further edits... You can blame that on several former members and the policy has remained since then, just in case... Plus, sometimes seeing how things have been done the wrong way, with a follow-up as to why, can be helpful... If something disastrous enough, and deemed unfit for these forums, the management team with act accordingly...

[frodo]

CRANKY

292383.gif (35.84 KiB) Viewed 5835 times

[frodo]

I am having an issue,

when i first used my controller I used a 3800 watt element, because I hide my 5300 from myelf.

anyway, I found it. and switched them out.

on the smaller element after achieving a stream, i turned it down from 15 amps to 8/9 amps

ran great..

on this element when i turn it down, between 4 amps and 11 amps i have no adjustment.

the display will show...4 the blink to 7 then 11 down to 7 then up to 11

down to 4. bounces up and down

i have lost my "range" , I want 9 amps.

any thoughts on this ?

[still_stirrin]

You DO realize frodo, that 9 amps with a 3.8kW element is NOT the same as 9 amps with a 5.4kW element, don't you?

So, to get the same, or nearly the same power input with the higher watt (lower resistance) element, you need LESS current. As a result, you may be lower on the hysterisis curve of your power regulator.
ss

[dirtybird33]

You DO realize frodo, that 9 amps with a 3.8kW element is NOT the same as 9 amps with a 5.4kW element, don't you?

So, to get the same, or nearly the same power input with the higher watt (lower resistance) element, you need LESS current. As a result, you may be lower on the hysterisis curve of your power regulator.
ss

I don't think you are correct. Watts = volts x amps. If you are running the same voltage power output to achieve the same wattage you have to have the same amperage.

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