Using malts in place of yeast

[jmashspirits14]

Hello, I am knew to this forum and distilling and i'm sure the answer to my question is probably on this forum somewhere but I do not feel like searching because it its not easy to do on my phone. That said, I've been noticing almost every one uses some form of yeast for fermentation. When hearing all the great old timers talk about brewing they say using yeast causes a bitter taste and causes hang over and that malt should be used. I know how to malt grains but will using malted grains in place of yeast create enough alcohol. Its said that real corn liquor its nothing but malted corn and water set to ferment for roughly a month depending on temperature. To me, I just don't see how a gallon of malted corn will replace yeast. Its said when using corn and water alone with no sugar or yeast that all the corn is malted to have enough natural sugars and enzymes to produce alcohol. My base question however is, can grain malt completely replace yeast in a mash? It just takes much longer to ferment right? Weeks in stead of days, am I correct?

[woodshed]

Wow? Where to start? Your first post should be in the Welcome Center as requested if you had bothered to read anything on the site before jumping in. I only approved this post because it is obvious you need the forums and parent site if you are to pursue this craft.
Never, and I mean never say you could have researched it but did not want to for any reason on the forums. You will bring nothing but the wrath of all here who work hard to make the site what it is, the best distilling site you will find.

It's too hard on my phone. Give me a break. Then wait until you get home or wherever you need to so you can do what we consider to be mandatory reading. I run two companies and my own life mostly off my phone.

Your questions can all be answered by doing some research on this site. I will give a brief answer to all of them. NO.
If you want the why spend some time here. Read a lot then come back with a foundation and with not such a rookie question.
Been watchin Moonshiners? Cut that shit out or at least realize you are being fed bad info from buying into that waste of airtime.


We want you to be knowledgeable and safe. Most here will go the extra mile to make sure you are. It's a great craft.
You have to lay the foundation first. Then we will help you build the house. It's a rare day on HD that someone will just give you the answer to such a pedestrian question. Especially when you admit to not doing the research yourself.

Welcome to HD. Please step over to the Welcome Center and give us a proper intro. What are you looking to make?
Setup? We love pics!

[NZChris]

Welcome to the forum.

You are not correct. You have done no useful research. Do some. Not at youtube.

[shadylane]

Malt brings it's own sugar and yeast to the party.
If you don't believe it, make a mash without adding yeast and see if it will start fermenting on it's own.
Sometimes it will get started before the mash has cooled enough to pitch the store bought yeast.
The ferry tale about yeast causing a headache is true.
If you drink enough yeast piss, you will get a head ache.

[thecroweater]

Malt brings it's own sugar and yeast to the party.
If you don't believe it, make a wort without adding yeast and see if it will start fermenting on it's own.
Sometimes it will get started before the mash has cooled enough to pitch the store bought yeast.
The ferry tale about yeast causing a headache is true.
If you drink enough yeast piss, you will get a head ache.

yes and sometimes it will just start going lactic, relying of wild yeast from grain will be more miss than hit

[shadylane]

That's a fact croweater

[cranky]

Like I posted in the OPs welcome center post, read and follow the first link in my signature.

[rad14701]

Not wanting to do research because you're on a cell phone is no excuse... As with most everything, use the right tool for the job... You've already proven that you are lacking in research so get to it... Forget what you thought you may have learned elsewhere and concentrate all of your efforts in learning here in these forums as well as the parent site... We can tell whether someone is up to speed or not, and you're not... You should remain a spectator until such time that you know what you need to know before you need to know it...

[ShineRunnah]

Been watching Moonshiners and listening to Jim Tom a little too much...

[S-Cackalacky]

The Japanese use some kind of fungus to ferment sake, but to the best of my knowledge it's not something those ignoranuses on Moonshiner's would have knowledge of. Otherwise, yeast is yeast - whether it's wild or something you buy in the grocery store. I'm sure some of the old timers just thought there was some kind of magic going on when their ferments took off without adding yeast to it. They were just ignorant to the fact that yeast is present in the environment just about everywhere. Don't necessarily mean that it's good yeast.

[Usge]

If you want to experiment with wild yeast, the most consistent results I ever got was using "fruit"...like grapes...that were covered with white dust (that's wild yeast). You can either just toss them in your fermenter or make a starter first. Either way, it worked for me more consistently than just wild air yeast. Best time to try and capture some wild yeast...is put out a bunch of jars during spring in or near growing plants/flowers, etc. I would also say...I had much better luck with it on lower SG washes/mash.

Most times..it would start pretty readily...frying on top...but usually would die off before finishing (the most common issue I had). When that happened, I usually bombed it with yeast to see if I could get it to finish. If it did...I racked it off quickly. If it doesn't finish or your leave it long after that to struggle on..it usually turned to puke. (infection). My experience was that the yeast bed was just never strong enough to recycle without incurring an infection. But, others have had luck by saving a jar of lees and using various yeast washing techniques to sustain it.

[skow69]

i'm sure the answer to my question is probably on this forum somewhere but I do not feel like searching

Seriously?

I'm surprised you got any response at all.

Sure. You don't need yeast. All these guys using yeast just don't know any better. Don't bother to search. It's too much trouble. Just keep listening to the sources you have been. That's the best plan. I'm sure they are right.

[Windy City]

The Japanese use some kind of fungus to ferment sake, but to the best of my knowledge it's not something those ignoranuses on Moonshiner's would have knowledge of. Otherwise, yeast is yeast - whether it's wild or something you buy in the grocery store. I'm sure some of the old timers just thought there was some kind of magic going on when their ferments took off without adding yeast to it. They were just ignorant to the fact that yeast is present in the environment just about everywhere. Don't necessarily mean that it's good yeast.

Yeast is a fungus

[emptyglass]

Dang it Tickle, the aclehol is a bit low cummin out dat dere spout...

I's got it Tim, i'll just tipps me some more sugar in dat dere boiler.....

[still_stirrin]

jmashspirits14,

Ya gotta crawl before you can walk, let alone run!

Learn the basics first....to brew a beer, wine, mead, etc. inluding the fermentation processes. Get control of those processes rather than losing control of them (wild yeast & bacterial fermentation).

Then, after a lot of education you may have enough knowledge to advance to distilling. Maybe.
Happy trails.
ss

[S-Cackalacky]

The Japanese use some kind of fungus to ferment sake, but to the best of my knowledge it's not something those ignoranuses on Moonshiner's would have knowledge of. Otherwise, yeast is yeast - whether it's wild or something you buy in the grocery store. I'm sure some of the old timers just thought there was some kind of magic going on when their ferments took off without adding yeast to it. They were just ignorant to the fact that yeast is present in the environment just about everywhere. Don't necessarily mean that it's good yeast.

Yeast is a fungus

I was referring to koji which to the best of my knowledge isn't considered a yeast, but does ferment sugars. Guess I should have been more specific.

[frozenthunderbolt]

The Japanese use some kind of fungus to ferment sake, but to the best of my knowledge it's not something those ignoranuses on Moonshiner's would have knowledge of. Otherwise, yeast is yeast - whether it's wild or something you buy in the grocery store. I'm sure some of the old timers just thought there was some kind of magic going on when their ferments took off without adding yeast to it. They were just ignorant to the fact that yeast is present in the environment just about everywhere. Don't necessarily mean that it's good yeast.

Yeast is a fungus

I was referring to koji which to the best of my knowledge isn't considered a yeast, but does ferment sugars. Guess I should have been more specific.

Koji is a combo of Aspergillus Niger (usually) which breaks down starches to sugars (It produces gluco-amylase), and a yeast which does for the alcohol making. It allows for the simultaneous conversion and fermentation of the cooked rice to alcohol (Sake)

[jmashspirits14]

First of all let's make one thing clear, i'm not an idiot nor ignorant! I did not say I haven't done any research, I have done about as much research on the internet on the question I asked as one can do besides forums. This was the first forum I went to, to try to get an answer to my question. I could not find the answer anywhere else on the internet. My phone is an out of date blackberry that does not navigate through forums very well, this is really the only question I had and I figured I would just ask real quick in stead of trying to search through this forum with this phone. I don't have a land line computer, this phone is the only access I have to the internet. If one of you decided you wanted to learn the art of bonsai and came to a site where I am active I would never treat a beginner in such a manner. Some if you seem to forget you were beginners at this at one time also. If you don't want to help me that's fine but I could have done without all the assholishness. I ask a rookie question because I am a rookie, I haven't even made my first run yet, but i'm going to regardless off the comments made here. I have my first 5 gallon of mash brewing now and when it stops i'm going to distill it. Its not rocket science, i'm not trying to send someone to the moon were just trying to make some good liquor without blowing ourselves up! As far as Moonshiners, its a good show. They don't show everything but don't think for one minute that Tim Smith, Popcorn Sutton, and Jim Tom can't make damn good shine. They all 3 have legal productsSon the market so these people know how to distill spirits. Are they really doing what the show makes them look like they are doing? Doubtful.

[woodshed]

No, the fact that they are producing commercially does not mean they know what they are doing. It means they got the absurd publicity this show offered. Fucking Bubba Gump restaurants are everywhere but they are only slightly above going to McDonalds for a burger.

Popcorn is dead. He ain't makin likker no more. His name carries on for profit, nothing more.

[jmashspirits14]

Also I did post on the introduction page once a member sent me a private message and welcomed me and explained things to me. I am a member if many forums and I have never been asked to introduce myself and explain my intentions. I also wanted to say I have made skit of wine but I always used yeast because well that's what you do to make wine. I know enough after quite a bit of research to nds able to make a basic mash and distill it. My pot is s 5 gallon stainless pot and the rest is copper. I was just hearing two different stories about yeast vs malt but there weren't any definitive answers on the internet itself. I am using electric heat so there is very minimal chance of catching fire or blowing up. I have a temperature gauge on my pot so I can run at 148f first to run off all the methanol then I can slowly raise the temp to 174-178 to run the ethanol. This way I don't have to guess and don't take a chance of going blind or dying and Havering an extreme headache. I'm no moron by a long shot, if I were I would never be able to do bonsai and have trees worth thousands of dollars. I'm 37 years old so its not like i'm some dumb kid that watched moonshiners one time and says, i'm gonna make me some moonshine! I understand i'm no expert but a tad of respect would be nice. From what gather brandy isn't that hard to make either especially knowing how to make wine already. Make wine, distill it, equals fruit brandy.

[woodshed]

At this site you are asked to do those things. That's why you end up here. Cause you won't find a better site. Respect is earned IMO , not just given.

[moosemilk]

Well now, since you claim to know, you go ahead and run that pot with say a 8-10% wash at 178f. Let us know how that goes for ya. Your therm in the liquid or vapor path? What temp does PURE ethanol boil at? Now what temp will the wash be at if it has 8-10% when you start getting ethanol? And a thermometer in a pot still for a newbie isn't going to help you.

As for your outdated blackberry, I have an old pearl, and when my Z10 is charging, I am on that reading the site. Of you really want to learn, thicken that skin a lot, stop biting the hand that feeds you, and take the suggestions you've been given.

Also, Tim Smiths commercial "Climax" is nothing to brag about.

Oh, running electric...stove top or hotplate or induction...good luck with smearing and surging.

I have been here less than a year, done over 60 runs, and can make a sugarhead that stands up to a top shelf whiskey (coming from close friends who really enjoy good whiskey...and they were honest telling me my first few runs were not so good). My all grain whiskey (not to brag) goes down like water at 90 proof. I didn't get this far in that short of time by luck. I got it by reading here, following advice, and then putting to practice.

I'm not tearing you a new one here, but I'm not going to give you answers either for things that are all covered in the novice section and all. It's not too late to swallow your words and try over. We've all put a foot in our mouth, even some experienced guys and on here as well. We just want you to succeed safely, and make yourself a great drink.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Also I did post on the introduction page once a member sent me a private message and welcomed me and explained things to me. I am a member if many forums and I have never been asked to introduce myself and explain my intentions. I also wanted to say I have made skit of wine but I always used yeast because well that's what you do to make wine. I know enough after quite a bit of research to nds able to make a basic mash and distill it. My pot is s 5 gallon stainless pot and the rest is copper. I was just hearing two different stories about yeast vs malt but there weren't any definitive answers on the internet itself. I am using electric heat so there is very minimal chance of catching fire or blowing up. I have a temperature gauge on my pot so I can run at 148f first to run off all the methanol then I can slowly raise the temp to 174-178 to run the ethanol. This way I don't have to guess and don't take a chance of going blind or dying and Havering an extreme headache. I'm no moron by a long shot, if I were I would never be able to do bonsai and have trees worth thousands of dollars. I'm 37 years old so its not like i'm some dumb kid that watched moonshiners one time and says, i'm gonna make me some moonshine! I understand i'm no expert but a tad of respect would be nice. From what gather brandy isn't that hard to make either especially knowing how to make wine already. Make wine, distill it, equals fruit brandy.

Haha. Thermo in a pot still. Run by temps. Crack up.

[W Pappy]

A simple search would tell you you cant make alcohol without yeast.Well as far as the old timers knowing their stuff some do and a ton made shit up! Because they couldn't explain something like "well I didn't put no yeast in there so must be the malt doin the job"It kills me that people today are still sayin that crap.Natural yeast are everywhere but it could be the malt that ferments dem dropped apples the deer dont eat up in time.Hell Ill just call Jim tom the fountain of likker makin gospel.You will score no points throwing names like that around.Run them temps you talked about see what you get ha!

[jedneck]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
Here cranky did most of the work for you.

[shadylane]

Thanks Jed.
About time someone tried to pull the new guy out of the shark tank.

[jedneck]

Sometimes the blind squirrel needs help finding the nut.

[shadylane]

My base question however is, can grain malt completely replace yeast in a mash? It just takes much longer to ferment right? Weeks in stead of days, am I correct?

The answer is maybe.
Malt isn't a replacement for yeast, but there's wild yeast on the malt.
If the mash hasn't been heated to a high enough temperature to kill the wild yeast, the mash will begin to ferment.
The problem is, wild yeast can't compare with the store bought yeast that is available.

[emptyglass]

jed, although your question has some validity, you have gone about asking it the wrong way.

As someone that is not ignorant or an idiot, you have sure made a good first impression. As you'd know, you dont turn up to a harley convention on a bonsai rocket.
In the same tone, you dont need to come here announcing you have no time to research right now. A hobby that can cause you damage or get you in trouble is what you are looking at here, not growing a tree.
By getting yourself in trouble with a bold attitude, you may drag some others here down at the same time. Please respect this.

After the Olympics are on TV, gymnastics gets a surge of interest. When "Moonshiners" appears on TV, we get a surge of interest. Any turkey can make hooch, the ones that cant make it well sell their storeys to the TV producers. You, as an intelligent, learned man can appreciate this.
Just because "croc hunters" sell their story to a TV show dosnt mean we all jump in and wrestle crocs. This is a simple hobby, but its not without danger. Respect the danger, us and yourself and you'll get answers.

The short answer to your question is a long one. Its just not that clear cut. If you did well at biology at school, you'll do ok, but your asking a complicated question to which theres not a simple answer. There are other questions that do have simple answers, this isnt one.
We cant help it if you asked a hard one first up

[S-Cackalacky]

First of all let's make one thing clear, i'm not an idiot nor ignorant! I did not say I haven't done any research, I have done about as much research on the internet on the question I asked as one can do besides forums. This was the first forum I went to, to try to get an answer to my question. I could not find the answer anywhere else on the internet. My phone is an out of date blackberry that does not navigate through forums very well, this is really the only question I had and I figured I would just ask real quick in stead of trying to search through this forum with this phone. I don't have a land line computer, this phone is the only access I have to the internet. If one of you decided you wanted to learn the art of bonsai and came to a site where I am active I would never treat a beginner in such a manner. Some if you seem to forget you were beginners at this at one time also. If you don't want to help me that's fine but I could have done without all the assholishness. I ask a rookie question because I am a rookie, I haven't even made my first run yet, but i'm going to regardless off the comments made here. I have my first 5 gallon of mash brewing now and when it stops i'm going to distill it. Its not rocket science, i'm not trying to send someone to the moon were just trying to make some good liquor without blowing ourselves up! As far as Moonshiners, its a good show. They don't show everything but don't think for one minute that Tim Smith, Popcorn Sutton, and Jim Tom can't make damn good shine. They all 3 have legal productsSon the market so these people know how to distill spirits. Are they really doing what the show makes them look like they are doing? Doubtful.

Definition of ignorant - lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact.

All the knowledge and information you need on the particular subject of distillation can be found here in these forums, but only if you're willing to read it.