Clean and Sanitary - DIY PBW & Iodophor

[BaxtersDad]

As a long time beer brewer (well prior to 1979 when home brewing was legalized!) , I wonder if home distillers pay enough attention to making sure fermenting equipment - everything that touches the "must" (fruit juice or sugar-water solution") or "wort" (malt or cereal solution) prior to fermentation - is clean and sanitary. From browsing here, I see that some certainly do but I am guessing a lot do not.

The best cleaner for everything, bar none, is PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) from Five Star Chemicals, but it is very expensive. I have seen references here to using Oxiclean, and that is good, but here is an excellent article on DIY PBW. Made from Oxiclean (70%) and Red Devil 90 TSP (30%) it contains the same ingredients in the same proportion as PBW at a fraction of the cost. Wear a mask when mixing the dry ingredients, you don't want them in your lungs. It is used in varying concentrations, usually 1 - 2 tbsp per gallon, for soaking (30 minutes) or scrubbing equipment. Soak what you can soak and scrub what you can't soak, and be careful not to scratch plastic fermenters! It requires multiple rinses after using.

There are a couple of well known sanitizers, but I prefer BTF Iodophor, which is a tasteless, odorless, no rinse iodine based sanitizer. I wouldn't argue with anybody who liked Five Star Star San better, this is just based on long experience. BTF iodophor is mixed 1 tbsp to five gallons of water, but in practice, it would be silly to mix 5 gallons, because two minutes contact time is sufficient to sanitize equipment. Mix a pint, quart or half gallon, and soak equipment in a small pail, swirl it around in your carboy, or use a spray bottle to spray it on hydrometers. I don't meaure Iodophor any longer, I just judge by its color - a nice deep yellow is close enough to the correct concentration. I am not afraid of my tap water, so I may actually rinse after sanitizing but otherwise let it just air dry. Bacteria is everywhere on dust in the air, so after sanitizing, turn fermenters upside down, cover the mouth of carboys and cover small stuff with a paper towel.

This may seem like overkill, but "clean and sanitary" is the only way to insure against an infected must or wort!

[Wooday]

Soap and hot water for cleaning, Star-san no-rinse to sanitize.

Does it matter if you're running after the primary ferment?

[BaxtersDad]

Soap leaves residue that you cannot easily rinse off. PBW, purchased or DIY, rinses completely with a couple of water rinses. I don't want soap residue in my beer, nor I think in my wash.

Bacterial Infection in a ferment can turn alcohol to vinegar. Clean and sanitary, along with other good management, including oxygenation, adequate yeast pitching rate, and proper nutrient additions, ensures a sound beer/wine/wash. Whether you run after primary or want to let fermentation run to completion and clarify a bit in secondary is up to you!

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Sometimes being lucky is enough. 3 years and I've never once sanitised my gear.

[Wooday]

Soap leaves residue that you cannot easily rinse off. PBW, purchased or DIY, rinses completely with a couple of water rinses. I don't want soap residue in my beer, nor I think in my wash.

Bacterial Infection in a ferment can turn alcohol to vinegar. Clean and sanitary, along with other good management, including oxygenation, adequate yeast pitching rate, and proper nutrient additions, ensures a sound beer/wine/wash. Whether you run after primary or want to let fermentation run to completion and clarify a bit in secondary is up to you!

Never had a problem with soap residue.
Yeast never had a problem with it either.
I'm a cheap bastard and if I can use the wife's scent free dish soap, I'm not spending the money for a dedicated cleaner.

Horses for courses.

I get it. Pbw is the best, easiest cleaninest cleaner ever.
Otherwise, why would the pro brewers bother using it?

[Bobdoe]

I try very hard to never let anything sit and get crusty. I clean everything with hot water (and a brush if necessary but rarely with soap), then a final rinse with SanStar and then stored dry and dust-free. When I say "everything", I mean it--pots, stirrers, hydrometers, spoons, measuring cups, nylon straining bags, thermometer, etc. Not saying that's what has to be done, but its what I do! I don't have a wort chiller and usually convert overnight and worry about a contamination. So far so good!

BD

[frunobulax]

StarSan FTW! I saw a video where they say it only really needs a 30 second contact time. I've never used Iodophor but the only drawback I see is staining. On the plus side, you can use it to check for conversion. (It is iodine)
For general cleaning, I like oxyclean and only use PBW or the home made version for soaking badly stained equipment. A friend of mine just bought a 50# bucket of PBW. That should be more than enough for....A Life Time!! plus
I'm a long time brewer too, remember when bleach was the best thing for sanitizing? Horrible.

[Danespirit]

I have 10 L jugs as a fermenter. Every time a ferment is ready and racked into a new jug, i just flush it with water.
Prior to putting a new ferment in, i boil some water and swirl it around in the fermenter.
That kills any bacteria that should have come in there despite the flush with water.
Further it heats the ferment and dissolves the sugar i might pour in.
From time to time, i flush the jug with a little amount of bleech and give it a good flush (especially if i used tomatopaste as it gives off colour).
My alcoholmeter and hydrometer is cleaned with papertowels and some foreshots, that should be enough to kill even the hardest bacterias.
Never had any issues with infected ferments, but once it is set i leave it alone without poking around in it.
I take a SG reading when i know it should be near ready, that ensures enough alcohol in there so even if bacterias come in they dont have a chance.

[rad14701]

In going on 40 years now I have never used anything but HOT water and have never had an infection... Luck, or a proven method...??? The odds are in my favor... If I do ever experience an infection I'll give things a more intensive cleaning but won't be changing my standard protocols from that point on based on a single infection...

Some folks won't eat foods beyond Best Used By dates...
Some folks have to cook the piss out of a piece of meat until it isn't worth eating...
Some folks won't leave home without being armed to the teeth...
Some folks have to wash, disinfect, and properly dress all cuts...

I'm living life, not living in fear - and I've got a pretty good track record...!!!

[GrassHopper]

+++++ on what Rad said,
That is be best exposition on living life I have ever heard! Why sweat the small stuff. Go with what works.
Now if I can just convince my wife she won't die if the damn can expired yesterday. Now that I think of it...
I'll just eat it and be happy as hell, cuz life is too short to argue with her over it. Gotta go, wife says I need a shower.

[shadylane]

I'm a firm believer in, an immune that isn't exercised will get weak.
But I do wash my hands after removing any dead critters from the fermenter.

[GrassHopper]

Okay, be the first to admit it. I ain't (yep I said ain't) very clean. Just ran 1/2 a wash yesterday. Have a 5th gen 25 gal UJSSM that I scrubbed as much yeast trub off the bottom of the barrel as possible and replace with 20 gal water and 5 lbs of fresh cracked corn. Did I sterilize my hands, my tools, my hose, anything? Nope, cuz its too much trouble, well okay I'm just lazy. There is sooo much cleaning to do just to get all the mess created by just doing that. Then, after all that, and running for 5 hours I am ready for a drinkl Yes, I deserve it. I deserve to reap the rewards of my efforts at the end of the day. I am too tired to do the rest tonight. So, next morning I get together the sugar and then boil the water outside on a turkey fryer and then put in the 27 lbs of sugar and stir it in then go check the ph of the to be ferment while waiting for the sugar to boil. I get sidetracked...... go back outside and sugar is boiling out of the pot all over the place. Damn. Shoulda been payin attention. Turn of heat. Wait till temp drops a few hours. Grab super heavy pot which is stickier than shit and carbon all over it because propane was almost out and carry it to the barrel which seems like a hundred yards across my shop and set it inside of barrel to dump it because tried to dump before off the edge and mopped sugar syrup up all over the place, so learned lesson. Only problem now is all that carbon on bottom an sides of pot is now in my wash floating around on top. Do I care? Well yeah, but does it hurt? Guess we'll see. But a few hours later it's bubbling like crazy and happy. And so am I. Bottom line is, if you want to go to all the trouble to be a clean freak, you go for it man. I don't care. I do only what is necessary to get the job done and so far, I am getting the job done.

[raketemensch]

How long does a sterile solution last? I've been thinking about mixing up a gallon bucket and just leaving it at my fermenting station so I don't have to move x it up every time I check a wash...

[Danespirit]

Raketenmensch...you think about it because you want to measure the gravity..??
It's much better to leave things alone, until you hear by the bubbles it's about done.
Then take a reading.
No need for poking around in it and risk a infection, just for shit and giggles.
If you wash your hands etc, there should be next to no chance for a infected wash.

[Brutal]

I bought a bottle of Star San about two years ago because I thought I needed it. It still has the seal intact under the cap.

[Bobdoe]

Guess I got into the habit of StarSan when I started malting corn, based on the trouble with mold. Now it's just part of my standard protocol for everything. Probably unnecessary, but it ain't broke so I'll not fix it!
BD

[BaxtersDad]

How long does a sterile solution last? I've been thinking about mixing up a gallon bucket and just leaving it at my fermenting station so I don't have to move x it up every time I check a wash...

You can keep mixed up Iodophor in a closed container, and as long as it retains its deep yellow color, it is still active. When the color fades, throw it out and mix more the next time you need it. For me, a spray bottle is actually the most useful container.

A couple of more general responses to some comments. First, I was only commenting on clean and sanitary as pertaining to fermenting musts or worts, nothing downstream of that. I have a lot of experience with beer, both in homebrewing and a commercial brewery, and can tell you, those brewers for whom clean and santiary is not a religion end up with off flavored beer or, worse, end up tossing it. There are no "I don't do no stinking cleaning or sanitizing and it works for me" successful brewers, period. Second, I have no experience to comment on whether an off-favored wash makes off-flavored hooch, but I suspect it does, just the same way good flavors (think fruit brandies, rum, whiskey) carry over. Certainly the short time between fermenting, especially a short fermentation, and distilling could be very important, before the infection is well established. I just don't see, with the cost and effort involved, why you would not want to go the extra distance to insure a sound wash by using clean and sanitary fermenting equipment.

[Danespirit]

How long does a sterile solution last? I've been thinking about mixing up a gallon bucket and just leaving it at my fermenting station so I don't have to move x it up every time I check a wash...

You can keep mixed up Iodophor in a closed container, and as long as it retains its deep yellow color, it is still active. When the color fades, throw it out and mix more the next time you need it. For me, a spray bottle is actually the most useful container.

A couple of more general responses to some comments. First, I was only commenting on clean and sanitary as pertaining to fermenting musts or worts, nothing downstream of that. I have a lot of experience with beer, both in homebrewing and a commercial brewery, and can tell you, those brewers for whom clean and santiary is not a religion end up with off flavored beer or, worse, end up tossing it. There are no "I don't do no stinking cleaning or sanitizing and it works for me" successful brewers, period. Second, I have no experience to comment on whether an off-favored wash makes off-flavored hooch, but I suspect it does, just the same way good flavors (think fruit brandies, rum, whiskey) carry over. Certainly the short time between fermenting, especially a short fermentation, and distilling could be very important, before the infection is well established. I just don't see, with the cost and effort involved, why you would not want to go the extra distance to insure a sound wash by using clean and sanitary fermenting equipment.

I may have misunderstood his question in my first response, please neglect it.

[bearriver]

Interesting recipe. Have you verified the information in the MSDS for the products you are using and replicating? When introducing stuff like this to the forum, it is customary to post the msds for all the products mentioned.

I only ever rinse my equipment with water and never had an infection in my few years distilling... I think most of the sanitization talk is much to do about nothing.

[cranky]

I do and I don't. Sometimes if I plan on running a wash fairly quickly I will just wash with soap and hot water but if like in the case of fruit, I might wind up letting it sit for a year I will sanitize using iodophor, it only takes a couple cap fulls and a few minutes so I figure it is worth the little bit of extra effort to insure a good ferment. With wine I always sanitize but I expect wine to be in a carboy for up to a year then in a bottle for up to 5 so sanitizing is important there. One other thing is once I airlock a wash it sits until the wash sucks back on the airlock, I never stick a hydrometer back in it and am quite patient and don't really care what the final SG is or when the exact moment it finishes, when it sucks back it's completely finished.

[Brutal]

The answer to this is really defined by what you are making. With whiskeys as long as there's not a BAD infection you're fine. Some things are better if the ferment had an infection. That's not to say cleanliness is bad at all. It's just to say that the average whiskey mash should ferment pretty quickly and be run right after. No time for an infection to really set in, and lots of competition from the big mean yeasties.

[pulsetech]

Is the oxy clean mentioned here sodium percarbonate ? I use cheap laundry soaker that is 28% sodium percarbonate. I'm yet to have an infection (other than the ones I add intentionally)

[BaxtersDad]

No MSDS, but Red Devil 90 TSP is 100% sodium metasilicate and the Sun OxiFree (Big Lots, Dollar Store) is sodium percarbonate and sodium bicarbonate. Copy and paste from article in link in first post: "the 70/30 of Oxy to TSP/90 seems to be the ACTUAL formula (Since Oxy’s 100% (ish) sodium percarbonate, and the Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% (ish) Sodium Metasilicate...Five Star themselves say that PBW is basically 70% percarbonate (aka Oxyclean) and 30% sodium metasilicate, which (supposedly) counteracts hard water, which causes the haze a lot of folks see when using straight Oxy." I don't see any hazard using these products, and the ingredients basically duplicate PBW which is the unquestioned choice for cleaning of most homebrewers and a lot of microbreweries as well.

Interesting recipe. Have you verified the information in the MSDS for the products you are using and replicating? When introducing stuff like this to the forum, it is customary to post the msds for all the products mentioned.

I only ever rinse my equipment with water and never had an infection in my few years distilling... I think most of the sanitization talk is much to do about nothing.

[cranky]

No MSDS, but Red Devil 90 TSP is 100% sodium metasilicate and the Sun OxiFree (Big Lots, Dollar Store) is sodium percarbonate and sodium bicarbonate. Copy and paste from article in link in first post: "the 70/30 of Oxy to TSP/90 seems to be the ACTUAL formula (Since Oxy’s 100% (ish) sodium percarbonate, and the Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% (ish) Sodium Metasilicate...Five Star themselves say that PBW is basically 70% percarbonate (aka Oxyclean) and 30% sodium metasilicate, which (supposedly) counteracts hard water, which causes the haze a lot of folks see when using straight Oxy." I don't see any hazard using these products, and the ingredients basically duplicate PBW which is the unquestioned choice for cleaning of most homebrewers and a lot of microbreweries as well.

If I recall right I think Woodshed uses something like that but I have a pretty bad memory but I know others use it too.