Glass thumper discussion

[rickyaifd]

I comment frequently about the potential danger of using glass mason jar type thumpers on a distilling facebook group and routinely get criticized and ridiculed. Can you all help me find examples or supporting evidence to confirm the potential danger of using glass in the distilling apparatus? Compounding the problem is the glass used in bubble plate columns so they see glass being used. Help needed in educating these people.

[Mashable]

I am a complete novice, it didn’t take much of an explanation to understand the dangers in using an extremely fragile component that manages a volatile compound to see that there was a risk, especially in the workspace attached to a home filled with loved ones, etc.

Can’t argue with stupid. Arguing with an idiot is like wrestling a pig, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!

[Kareltje]

That would be a sound argument, if glass was indeed extremely fragile.
But it is not. So your argument is plausible, not convincing.

I concur with rickyaifd: I never have seen a really convincing argument, for example proof or examples of accidents. Until then ricky's warnings will be ridiculed and criticized.

(I like the pig metafor! )

[Mashable]

That would be a sound argument, if glass was indeed extremely fragile.
But it is not. So your argument is plausible, not convincing.

I concur with rickyaifd: I never have seen a really convincing argument, for example proof or examples of accidents. Until then ricky's warnings will be ridiculed and criticized.

(I like the pig metafor! )

It was more of a relative to the other components of the still statement, sure they are robust as far a glass is considered, but why risk it? That’s me anyway, my field of work has instilled risk assessment and elimination and or control if it can’t be eliminated. This case is very easy to eliminate the risk of a breaking glass thumper, simply by not using glass. It’s just the advice I’ve taken. Always trying to get gooder!

[BamaHawk]

A glass mason jar is fragile. Drop one and see. All it would take is bumping it to potentially cause it to break. I suppose if you somehow protected it from inadvertent "bumps" then arguably it would be safer to use but still not the right tool for the job because of thermal expansion.

I think the difference between flutes with glass and mason jars, aside from the thickness, is the glass type. Flutes use borosilicate glass that has better thermal resistance than regular glass.

[still_stirrin]

....glass mason jar type thumpers on a distilling facebook group...

That discussion may be “OK” on Facebook....but it’s against the rules here! So, if you want to participate in that discussion elsewhere, so be it. But don’t bring it here.

We don’t have to justify it because it is mandated by our commitment to safety. PERIOD!
ss

[Durhommer]

I see alot of thumpers(jars) on Facebook that shit is just silly why risk it ...

[BamaHawk]

I can't figure out how to delete my response.

[jonnys_spirit]

If borosilicate is considered safe what about using borosilicate TC coupled segments for similar thumper configs?

If you do any canning using mason jars and don't pre-heat them appropriately they usually break at the bottom when you put them into hot water - This happens very easily and consistently. This is very dangerous when filled with high proof hot ETOH.

Cheers,
jonny

[zed255]

Jumping in before moderation slaps a lock on this.

I think it is not the physical robustness that is the real issue, the jars are actually pretty tough. It is the thermal shocks and stresses that are the bigger issue. Ever wonder why when canning or making preserves grandma was very particular about pre-warming the jars and allowing them to cool with the water bath or canner? She knew that the jars were at risk with rapid changes in or uneven heat / cooling. Seen some get broken both during warm up and cool down. Can you imagine the thermal stress on a glass thumper being hot inside and (relatively) cool outside? Would take a splash of cooling water or anything else to cause immediate failure. Under this stress they will become more susceptible to physical breakage too.

This community is laser focused on safety, and yes even a little militant about it at times. If certain discussions were allowed some would misinterpret the subject as acceptable. Notice how some will make a reply that is not relavent to the OP or even the greater discussion at large? They either misinterpreted or did not read entirely the thread at hand.

Posted along with Jonny. And to his point borosilicate (Pyrex) is much more thermally stable / robust and is a suitable material. If only mason jars were made of that, but they aren't.

[Tummydoc]

Best reason is because it violates forum rules and we are guests here. Not sure any other hypothesis passes the sniff test.

[Setsumi]

there are 2 problems for me. one i have first hand experience. i build 2 flutes but had only one set of glasses, in a hurry to do cleaning runs i swapped the glasses when still hot. it cracked.

second issue, a thumper at 2 liters volume is not a thumper. yes you may call it a rectifyer but i do not know the theory. i did stupid things and agree we see glass flutes but if you want a thumper get a thumper that is sized correct.

[ezlle71]

I comment frequently about the potential danger of using glass mason jar type thumpers on a distilling facebook group and routinely get criticized and ridiculed.

I made the mistake of joining a facebook distilling group for the grand sum total of 2 days. Never again. 90%+ unsafe practices and idiots toting everything they do as safe and correct. Total Shitshow. deleted myself from the group quick as i could.

I have tried to explain to a couple friends why their mason jar thumpers are unsafe. It goes in one ear and out the other. Of course one of them bought his whole set up and his argument is why would they sell an unsafe product? Some men you just can't reach ya know

[rickyaifd]

Thanks my friends. You pretty much confirmed what I suspected. As was so aptly stated, never argue with the pig, you get dirty and the pig likes it. I will just stick to the prescribed rules of safety and let these other yahoos do what the heck they want to

[rickyaifd]

Not referring to any of the posters on here as yahoos. I consider this the expert source and the most knowledgeable group.

[Tummydoc]

Not referring to any of the posters on here as yahoos. I consider this the expert source and the most knowledgeable group.

I thought yahoo was a term of endearment, my wife sure uses it as such!

[Twisted Brick]

Jumping in before moderation slaps a lock on this.

I think it is not the physical robustness that is the real issue, the jars are actually pretty tough. It is the thermal shocks and stresses that are the bigger issue.

Posted along with Jonny. And to his point borosilicate (Pyrex) is much more thermally stable / robust and is a suitable material. If only mason jars were made of that, but they aren't.

Pyrex (borosilicate) is more thermally stable than a mason jar (soda-lime), but is still subject to weaknesses created from repeated thermal-cycling. These weaknesses remain invisible until something catastrophic occurs, and it doesn't necessarily have to be created by a thermal shock from a sudden temperature swing.

From the article The Pyrex Glass Controversy That Just Won't Die

In practice, the difference between the performance of borosilicate glass and soda-lime glass is significant. When asked about the science behind the glass, Dr. John C. Mauro, a professor of engineering and materials science at Penn State, said in an email that the coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) is the main parameter used to measure thermal shock resistance. A higher CTE number means the material is less resilient to thermal shock. For example, Corning Visions cookware, a descendent of Pyrex Flameware, is designed for stovetop use and has a CTE close to zero, Mauro explained. Borosilicate glass has a CTE of 3 or 4 parts per million per 1 Kelvin change (ppm/K). But soda-lime glass has a CTE of 9 to 9.5 ppm/K.

“The favorable qualities of soda-lime silicate glass are that it is extremely cheap, yet with a fairly high chemical durability and good optical transparency,” Mauro explained. “However, soda lime silicate has a poor thermal shock resistance due to its high CTE. … Borosilicate glass can withstand 2.5-3 times the temperature difference compared to soda lime silicate.”

Consumers have been complaining of increased injuries from Pyrex products ever since World Market purchased the Pyrex Brand and reportedly changed their glass from borosilicate to tempered soda-lime, claiming it was just as safe in the kitchen if used properly. The slew of lawsuits World Market has had to address defending their products should be ample warning that not even Pyrex is safe.

[Durhommer]

I dont think some people will learn until they have their own accident with it

[Yummyrum]

....but it’s against the rules here!

Its not in the official rules .

But it is considered bad and unsafe practice which is not acceptable .

a thumper at 2 liters volume is not a thumper. yes you may call it a rectifyer but i do not know the theory. i did stupid things and agree we see glass flutes but if you want a thumper get a thumper that is sized correct.

Agreed . However a 2litre thumper might be OK for a pissy stove top 5 litre pot .

In which case , personally I see no issue with this idea . These modules have not appeared to fail in action that I recall reading about over the years .But it would be a lot of unnecessary bling for a tiny Pot .

If borosilicate is considered safe what about using borosilicate TC coupled segments for similar thumper configs?

Having said that , as a Lab assistant , I see my share of broken Boro glass . It’s not as robust as folk seem to believe .... especially the thinner stuff .

[Saltbush Bill]

Almost every facebook group Ive ever joined/ looked at is full of similar people....idiots with no idea.....people giving out completely wrong information and instant experts who know next to nothing.
I tend to not even look at or use things like facebook these days........just frustrates hell out of me.

[Kareltje]

If you do any canning using mason jars and don't pre-heat them appropriately they usually break at the bottom when you put them into hot water - This happens very easily and consistently. This is very dangerous when filled with high proof hot ETOH.

That is true, but if you preheat the jars in water, starting from cold and than heating them to 100 dgr C, and when you use a pack of papers to put them on, it is my experience that you can safely fill them with hot marmalade. That is: apart from burning your fingers, of course. I never did lose a jar, neither did any of my friends.

And wecking is done the same way: put the cold jars in cold water and heat them to boiling for about a quarter of an hour.

The breaking is caused by the expansion of glass when it is heated. Borosilicate has a very low expansion coefficient, so its volume stays the same at almost any temperature.

[Kareltje]

there are 2 problems for me. one i have first hand experience. i build 2 flutes but had only one set of glasses, in a hurry to do cleaning runs i swapped the glasses when still hot. it cracked.

second issue, a thumper at 2 liters volume is not a thumper. yes you may call it a rectifyer but i do not know the theory. i did stupid things and agree we see glass flutes but if you want a thumper get a thumper that is sized correct.

By the first problem you support the theory of slow heating and cooling.

As about the second issue: in the cases I have seen the jars used in a thumperlike setup, they were rather used like a ginbox or a tastegiving item. Nor like the normal use of thumpers in the USoA.

I support the policy to not talk too much about potential hazardous practices on open forums, but I still would very much like to see a report about failure of these thumpers. Only THAT would finally convince the non-believers.

[Kareltje]

Almost every facebook groups Ive ever joined/ looked at is full of similar people....idiots with no idea.....people giving out completely wrong information and instant experts who know next to nothing.
I tend to not even look at or use things like facebook these days........just frustrates hell out of me.

A large lot of them talk about Mozart as if they are trained experts, but when you pose them some questions you find that they never saw one single painting of the guy.

[jonnys_spirit]

Almost every facebook groups Ive ever joined/ looked at is full of similar people....idiots with no idea.....people giving out completely wrong information and instant experts who know next to nothing.
I tend to not even look at or use things like facebook these days........just frustrates hell out of me.

A large lot of them talk about Mozart as if they are trained experts, but when you pose them some questions you find that they never saw one single painting of the guy.

Lol! I went to an exhibit once in ATL haha!

I've had mason jars crack when trying to do some so called "rapid aging" where I heated them in a pot of water when they were filled with likker and oak chips... I did that twice then I got smarter lol...

Cheers,
jonny

[Kareltje]

I've had mason jars crack when trying to do some so called "rapid aging" where I heated them in a pot of water when they were filled with likker and oak chips... I did that twice then I got smarter lol...

Cheers,
jonny

Let me get this straight: you put a jar with likker and oak chips, cold, in a cold pot of water and than heated the pot of water. And this jar cracked. Twice?
I do not suppose you put a cold pot of likker in a heated pot of water??

[jonnys_spirit]

it was a couple years ago but it was cold or room temp water to start off then slowly heated... I guess the water heated and the glass insulated the likker so there was a temp differential between inside and outside the jar which caused disproportionate expansion of the glass material - it was a clean crack (both times) around the base of the jar.

[Twisted Brick]

it was a couple years ago but it was cold or room temp water to start off then slowly heated... I guess the water heated and the glass insulated the likker so there was a temp differential between inside and outside the jar which caused disproportionate expansion of the glass material - it was a clean crack (both times) around the base of the jar.

A couple articles I read said that cracking around the base of a canning jar is classic. The cracking is not caused by a temperature differential between the warming water and the jar's contents. It is caused by what you said: the uneven expansion of the jar's bottom and walls, which have different thicknesses. There also can be hairline cracks and microscopic scratches (ie: caused by a butter knife scraping preserves out) that can contribute to uneven heating and subsequent cracking. The recommended remedy? Always use a canning rack that allows the warming water to flow underneath the jar, but more importantly, slowly warm an empty jar (say under the sink) before filling.

I always make a starter for my fermentations by completing a one gallon stovetop mash (with the same grainbill as the main mash) and after conversion and squeezing, bring the wash to 170F to pasteurize. I pour this into 4 x 1qt hot mason jars cooled just slightly from a canning pot (yes I burn my fingers) and luckily, I haven't suffered a crack yet.

[Butch27]

Not a thumper but an interesting and I am sure not approved use for glass.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=23962

[cob]

Not a thumper but an interesting and I am sure not approved use for glass.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=23962

mash rookie was a professional glass artist/ blower of some renown his

professional status pretty much gave him a pass on his muggles still.

his knowledge base of glass was lightyears ahead of your average mason

jar thumper redneck. he was an innovator who shared his knowledge here

freely and often. He also took some flack for some of his ideas.

[Setsumi]

said my piece allready. but small glass thumpers is one of my pet hates. not just because of safety issues but rather to me it represents lack of research and understandinf of distilation. just because you saw it on youtube.....