Packed or Plated?

[Frosteecat]

I've been doing a lot of research on distillation techniques both in and out of HD. It seems, at least anecdotally, that a packed structured material column is the easiest and most common reflux tool, followed by trays and then bubble caps, etc. However many here seem to use plates and caps as a primary tool with packed columns seemingly a secondary concern. I have not found (yet) a definitive thread on which one(s) ACTUALLY produce the most neutral spirit (I'm in the process of designing my neutral column for my still).
I know it is a bit of hair splitting and I'm going to choose the method that combines ease for my skill level with aesthetics and results, or most likely a combination of two or more designs, but what is the book on the various methods? Which one is most effective and/or which one gives you the most bang for your buck?

[Prairiepiss]

The info is here. And said many times. If you want the best neutral you can make. A packed column is for you. But can be quite slow. If you want a not WK great neutral but fast runs. Larger Plated stills would be better. We are talking 4" range. For the plated. And 2" to 3" for the packed.

[Frosteecat]

Gotcha. Not to be too pedantic but while there is a ton of discussion it often is comparative and delves really deeply into minutae, with all of you experts fabulously "riffing" off each other and often times very diplomatically backing off strong statements of "x is better than y". Every point made seems to have a counterpoint, refinement, addition, "but wait, what about this" element, etc. It's what makes this site wonderful, and people like you an invaluable resource, but from a purely empathetic standpoint and taking into account a vastly different set of skills and learning abilities, especially among newly minted members...it aint as clear as you think!
I am certainly prepared to be a bit of a sacrificial lamb if some of my questions can help others who are afraid of getting the "come on dude its right there in front of you" beatdown. I'm a retail middle manager and former chemical worker and car salesman. No amount of abuse here will ever match what I can handle.
Hope you know that statement was in fun and I certainly appreciate all the help! Back to the lab, Igor!

[rad14701]

Looks like we found a new whipping boy... And he volunteered...!!!

Just kidding... I think...

[Frosteecat]

Whip away, Rad, whip away. I really do "get it". And I'm even trying to pick off some of the "low hanging fruit" for you guys so you can spend more time with your dilithium reflux protozoan black hole condenser designs. But only if I'm fairly certain my incredibly base insights won't cause any other newbs to blow themselves up or poison their friends.
Cheers.

[mash rookie]

dilithium reflux protozoan black hole condenser designs

Those are my designs and strictly protected.

I was going let everyone flail around here for awhile but don’t want them to beat you without mercy. or maybe I do ??

You want to make a neutral column. Packing works better. Period. Height will factor for how clean it will be. Diameter determines speed.

They are wrong. Packing is not limited to 2 or 3 inch. I have done tests with packing in my 4 inch flute. It made 90% at the same speed as with plates that was notably cleaner tasting. Flutes are really cool but if you want bang for your buck............

I am working on designs now that will push the limits of structured packing and performance. My flux capacitor needs a tune up too.

[Frosteecat]

Don't forget to cross link your Flux capacitor with the positronic relays. Unless you're after Romulan Ale, of course...

[heartcut]

Just for a little more dilithium ore, my 2 1/2 x 32" packed column makes great one run whiskey (detuned, 3/4 packed) @ 20 min/ qt through the hearts. After reading about MR running his Flute with mesh, I've been thinking about the chunk of 4" in the attic with one valve plate on the bottom and the rest packed.

[Bonjimmi]

I was wondering the same thing . If a fully packed 4" column would produce a better neutral then a plated one. Yes you might loose some eye candy with the bubbling sight glasses. But there are other ways to jazz up the column....

[mash rookie]

I was wondering the same thing . If a fully packed 4" column would produce a better neutral then a plated one. Yes you might loose some eye candy with the bubbling sight glasses. But there are other ways to jazz up the column....

I Love my Flute and I am designing one with Old Dogs name on it but, I hate to be the one that breaks everybody’s heart. The answer is yes. Packing will make a better neutral and make good flavored booze when run faster.

I did have a single top plate with a central down comer to watch top plate volume when I did my testing. The cool thing was that with my site glasses I could see how packing performed.

My new designs will push the limits of structured packing. I will be building plated stills as well but packing designs will be fully explored.

[Frosteecat]

Good to know! Thanks for the candor on what appears to be a potentially controversial topic (?!)/minefield mode.

[Bonjimmi]

So Mash Rookie....... How did the packing look through the sight glass? Did you get bubbling on the top plate?

[mash rookie]

So Mash Rookie....... How did the packing look through the sight glass? Did you get bubbling on the top plate?

Yes I was able to keep about 1/2" on the top plate as per design. The remainder flowed back down??? the packing all appeared to be dripping liquid.
The vapor was not visible. Pretty much as you would imagine packing would/should perform. It was good to see though.

There is much more to know about packing as related to diameter, height, and BTU input (Vapor speed). I highly recommend you explore. I am not going to give it all up easily.

MR

[NcHooch]

Good to know! Thanks for the candor on what appears to be a potentially controversial topic (?!)/minefield mode.

I don't think there's any controversy ...folks that have plated stills own them because they produce high proof flavored product at pot still collection rates......right? And everyone that's ever used a packed column knows they produce great neutrals....right?

[mash rookie]

Good to know! Thanks for the candor on what appears to be a potentially controversial topic (?!)/minefield mode.

I don't think there's any controversy ...folks that have plated stills own them because they produce high proof flavored product at pot still collection rates......right? And everyone that's ever used a packed column knows they produce great neutrals....right?

Yup

[Bonjimmi]

Thanks for the info.... I will be trying a few different things with packing and plates... The wheels are starting to turn

[Frosteecat]

It's interesting to me because my first small still had about a 4' x 1" column
That I packed with a scrubber/glass marble sandwich. I was running in pots till mode with a simple worm bucket on either my stove or on propane. It was a 4 gallon pot... What I can attest to is that puppy
was rattling pretty good and I got a high abv but not so flavorful product. But I'm told that the juice ain't worth the squeeze in a potstill with packing. Seems that running it real low and slow (still a stream, not drips) will still get "refluxesque" results...
I guess I'll see the real difference when I finish my reflux column and run with packing...just having too much fun making flavorful whiskey right now!

[HookLine]

Don't know of any evidence that there is a difference in flavour profile between a packed and plated column, at the same % abv output. (And with the same still charge, etc, of course.)

Nothing wrong with those beautiful and highly functional plate columns. Developing and building them it is a great part of the hobby, and those who are into that get my respect. I love seeing that work so please don't stop, and certainly please don't stop posting nice pics of them.

But let's be honest, folks. They are expensive, complex, a lot of work to make, and not so easy to store. They are not for everybody.

But mostly, as far as I can tell, they are just not necessary. They offer no advantage over a packed column in the type or quality of spirit you can make.

A packed column, with a head that gives you full control over reflux ratio (0-100%), is all you need to cover the full range of stilling needs, from basic pot work all the way through to neutral spirit. Learn how to vary the power input level, reflux ratio/take-off rate, and amount of packing, and it will do anything you want.

If you want to keep the equipment simple, easy, cheap, and highly functional, then you can't go past a basic LM head and packed column.

Might not be very exciting, but it will do everything, and for minimal cost and build effort.

Just my 2c.

[Frosteecat]

I've been on here for weeks and I don't think I've seen it stated that clearly or emphatically. Thank you. Sort of a sidebar question: when you run the aforementioned still in two modes, the reflux (100%) mode needs to be open system as well. Is there a common design that works for both modes (I see a lot of open top drop in coil heads etc) or is the assumption that 100% is preventing vapor loss while avoiding pressure build up. That is, a non open top will still potentially vent out of takeoff...? Wait...I think I've missed the fact that takeoff in reflux usually occurs at a lower point than in a strictly pot mode...?

[mash rookie]

Don't know of any evidence that there is a difference in flavour profile between a packed and plated column, at the same % abv output. (And with the same still charge, etc, of course.)

Nothing wrong with those beautiful and highly functional plate columns. Developing and building them it is a great part of the hobby, and those who are into that get my respect. I love seeing that work so please don't stop, and certainly please don't stop posting nice pics of them.

But let's be honest, folks. They are expensive, complex, a lot of work to make, and not so easy to store. They are not for everybody.

But mostly, as far as I can tell, they are just not necessary. They offer no advantage over a packed column in the type or quality of spirit you can make.

A packed column, with a head that gives you full control over reflux ratio (0-100%), is all you need to cover the full range of stilling needs, from basic pot work all the way through to neutral spirit. Learn how to vary the power input level, reflux ratio/take-off rate, and amount of packing, and it will do anything you want.

If you want to keep the equipment simple, easy, cheap, and highly functional, then you can't go past a basic LM head and packed column.

Might not be very exciting, but it will do everything, and for minimal cost and build effort.

Just my 2c.

Well stated Hookline. Thank you.

A packed column will make good whiskey or rum, and allow better separation of fractions for neutral when desired.

I found this to be true by testing. My flute is pretty, fun to run and puts out like a $10 hooker, but will only make whiskey or rum. (even with my successful modification.)

Frosty, You do not need to have an open top if you are using a product condenser (not LM) or restricting vapor flow (VM) Having a large enough reflux condenser is important to initiate full reflux, and enough control to allow take of at desired speeds.

[HookLine]

Learn how to vary the power input level, reflux ratio/take-off rate, and amount of packing,...

and the amount of column insulation, of course.

[johnhopper1957]

Don't know of any evidence that there is a difference in flavour profile between a packed and plated column, at the same % abv output. (And with the same still charge, etc, of course.)

Nothing wrong with those beautiful and highly functional plate columns. Developing and building them it is a great part of the hobby, and those who are into that get my respect. I love seeing that work so please don't stop, and certainly please don't stop posting nice pics of them.

But let's be honest, folks. They are expensive, complex, a lot of work to make, and not so easy to store. They are not for everybody.

But mostly, as far as I can tell, they are just not necessary. They offer no advantage over a packed column in the type or quality of spirit you can make.

A packed column, with a head that gives you full control over reflux ratio (0-100%), is all you need to cover the full range of stilling needs, from basic pot work all the way through to neutral spirit. Learn how to vary the power input level, reflux ratio/take-off rate, and amount of packing, and it will do anything you want.

If you want to keep the equipment simple, easy, cheap, and highly functional, then you can't go past a basic LM head and packed column.

Might not be very exciting, but it will do everything, and for minimal cost and build effort.

Just my 2c.

I have thought the same thing for a long time, I have made two flutes \ perferated plate stills - one stainless with copper plates and one copper and a LOT of reflux stills and prefer the reflux stills for rums and whisky but I have never said anything due to thinking if I said something I would have people jump on me from a great height.

I have spoken to someone about it when they came over for a visit and said I had produced better rums with a detuned reflux still and was told "but the plate stills look so much cooler with the sight glasses and the curves" I am more about functionality,that said if you have the time and want the bling factor a plate still is what you want, they do look good.

[LWTCS]

Any controversy came from the early days (sounds strange to say as it wernt that long ago) when 2" ruled and the bulk of technical discussion centered around the columns.
Much of the skepticism was born from the rift between the forums and the focus or emphasis on how much it costs to build one of these beautiful machines.

This hobby is still cheaper than hotrods and motorbikes. The best way to assertain the total value of one of these stills is to run all the designs out there and understand the merits of each design. We got folks that never once ran a stripped down pot still. But lucky for the forum we also got folks that have run nearly all of the hobby sized designs and know that that the bubblers are an excellent performer.

[LWTCS]

Don't know of any evidence that there is a difference in flavour profile between a packed and plated column, at the same % abv output. (And with the same still charge, etc, of course.)

Usge sent me a paper that talks about how the plated stills do allow for some concentration of flavors (both good and bad) on the plates. I reckon this is due to a technical inefficiency. Liquid entrainment being the culprit I suspect?

Vapor entering the plate will re-acquaint with the compounds responsible for flavor that may be entrained within the liquid.
It is poor separation...but this is the thing that many pot stillers rely on. It is a re-infusion of flavor much like the way we think about traditional infusion techniques that the gin lovers use.
As a pot stiller at heart, I welcome this particular inefficiency,,this flaw...I want to exploit it, not eradicate it.

[Frosteecat]

So kind of a two path investigation? I.e., flavor with efficiency & neutral with efficiency looked at? I guess what I'm hanging up on with the neutral side on my design is if I can get optimum separation, how, and how do I know where it is and take it off at that point. Reflux to me seems like mixing over and over and over and I guess there's separation there, but not optimal. My mind keeps seeing a pyramid with "pure" distillate at the top and a take off valve just below its point...

[Prairiepiss]

Ok so this hasn't really been touched on yet. Surprised Larry didn't mention it. MR did mention he added packing into his plated still. But what about a combination if the two? Plated section below a packed column. What's everyone's thoughts in this? From what I'm seeing. Speed is increased and the height of the packed column is decreased. To get the same purity at the faster speed. How much is still up in the air. But I'm working in getting some numbers for everyone to work with.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

[Usge]

With the caveat of my limited experience....the 2" four bubble plate column I built...had more flavor at 90+% than the same head (dephleg) run as CM on a packed (mesh) column at the same 90%+. But, the flavor difference was mainly around the middle of the run. The mesh had notable less flavor from late heads through tails than the bubbler did. This made the cut on the bubbler have more pronounced flavor. However, it wasn't very good tasting. (never got that worked out). My guess is the distance between the plates, or height or something was making what flavor that did come over, really nasty at higher proof. I think OD experienced the same thing when he ran his flute MK2 with less than 4 plates. So, I might have had some efficiency problems somewhere with my build.

As far as theory goes, and the little I know of it, with bubbler is limited to it's physical plates..where as the mesh packing can actually end up being significantly more in regards to surface area. You can simulate 4 plates by using much less packing...but then how efficient is your still going to be? ie....will it then pull 90+%? I think it will. I think that's doable with just a CM head..regardless of packing. So, I think the amount of packing is what is key here. The more you use, the more theoretical plates you'll have and just the way these compound reflux stills operate...it will strip that refluxed liquid and refine it (removing flavor as it goes). I agree with LWTCS, that bubbling the vapor through liquid on a plate...gives a different result...in the same way a thumper is different and tends to "blend" flavor impurties together making it somewhat more homogenous, rather than scrubbing them away via mesh.

So, I think the answer is...yes, you can approximate the results of a plated still using mesh in so far as proof, etc...and have some flavor left....but the flavor that is left will be somewhat different as they arrive at the same place...via different paths/means. Whether that's bad or good is purely subjective.

[LWTCS]

There are typically many more distillations with the packed section. Collection time is generally when the head temp stabilizes..
And as Hook eludes,, if you know where / what you want to collect at,,you can likely stabilize at the lower ABVs as you start to collect your flavored spirit rather than stabilizing your head at the lower temps.

But if you are concerned with repeatable runs the the packed columns will likely require a bit more of a learning curve (or not)to figure the best amount of packing and so forth for your desired outcome.

But shoot ,,,its all fun stuff and really a great learning experience.....

[mash rookie]

This has been discussed a few thousand times. On the parent site they talk about HETP’s Height equivalent to theoretical plates. I am not sure who originally coined the phrase. The simple explanation is that packing creates more natural distillations in less space.

A large commercial distillation column is tall with many plates.
Instead of a pyramid consider a high rise staircase. At initial boil the vapor includes some water and all fractions of alcohol. What we call fractions are the higher alcohols and lower alcohols that have flavor congeners. All alcohol starts up the staircase with the lower boiling point (higher alcohols) making it farther up with lower alcohols being left behind.(fat and out of shape but tasty)

With a 4-6 plate flute or Larry’s super thumper the express elevator is used. (power in) Everybody gets to head up to the top floor where water guys are kicked back down.

ABV is raised simply by forcibly holding back liquid until water separation has occurred using a reflux condenser. The results are a heavy tasting spirit. The tails with flavor congeners are taken with hearts. Great for Rum or whiskey but not for neutral.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=23796 I have learned a lot since that post and some of my conclusions were wrong.

[Frosteecat]

But shoot ,,,its all fun stuff and really a great learning experience.....

Agreed! And because of (or maybe despite) my limited knowledge and the various options, my brain is like a rat in a maze right now!! My internal dialogue goes something like this: "Hmmm...so if I want this, I can make this and move that...but wait!!! then I'd have to plumb this up there and shift that to this, but then I'd be changing the way THAT works...but...but...but...".

Just this week I have fabbed a totally nuts condenser piece that I never thought I could have made 2 months ago, only to realize that in theory it was great but because of a simple composition issue was practically worthless. And now I'm altering THAT to suit my needs lol!!'

And I love it!! Does anyone know when the Distillation
Therapist has an open slot on the couch?!?