White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

[HookLine]

Which part of the world you in, Trapper?

[Trapperjones]

Canada eh!
You should see the fertilizers we have up here. These are the only two I could find that weren't chalk full of 10 to 20 different trace minerals like boron, copper, iron, molybdenum, manganese etc. The other day I mixed up a bottle of old recipe neutral with the experimental fertilizer one and couldn't tell the difference. The acid content makes it a powerful sugar inverter and cuts the time required. They add no taste and only work to speed up fermentation and allow you to grow stronger yeast capable of high alcohol without being stressed. When they get stressed they starting adding off tastes. Just smell the top of your airlock you can smell when they're stressed.

[HookLine]

There are different systems for calculating (representing) nutrient levels, but I think most places are going over to the one standard. The manufacturer of that particular fertiliser might still be using one of the old systems.

Nothing wrong with those trace elements, that will not hurt your yeast or ferment. In fact if you are going to do ongoing yeast farming at least some of them are probably necessary.

[chefdaniel]

Maltodextrin?? Anybody tried this?
http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/maltodextrin50lb.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Ray8abit]

My first batches I ever made were in 5 gallon milk bags using white sugar, tomato puree, and bakers yeast. It used to finish give or take a few hours three days. Finding this board this evening and seeing that with some nice tweaks, I could bring that down by half? You folks inspire me to step back almost thirty years and make some more, hmmmm and won't have to bubble thru soda water to keep from getting busted.

[rad14701]

My first batches I ever made were in 5 gallon milk bags using white sugar, tomato puree, and bakers yeast. It used to finish give or take a few hours three days. Finding this board this evening and seeing that with some nice tweaks, I could bring that down by half? You folks inspire me to step back almost thirty years and make some more, hmmmm and won't have to bubble thru soda water to keep from getting busted.

Welcome to the forums, Ray8abit... I'm currently working on confirmation of a 36-40 hour wash recipe... Hope to have confirmation and distillation results by the end of the week... Good luck...

[pintoshine]

So this has bee a couple weeks. How did it work out rad?

[rad14701]

So this has been a couple weeks. How did it work out rad?

Second run didn't finish as quickly and I'm not sure if it was due to extremely cold temperatures or another variable... The second batch finished in about 72 hours... I need to get more ingredients so I can do a third test... In fact, I haven't even run the wash yet but expect the same final product... The only major difference was that I was using a new jar of wheat germ...

[pintoshine]

Ah damn, those cold temps will kill it every time. I use a heating pad on the small fermenters in the house and a heater band on my 55 gallon poly's.
I keep my house at about 72 so ferments usually are fast.
Wait until July and then you can see one go in 36 hours if it doesn't kill itself from the heat generated.

[muckanic]

A couple of remarks:

1. In the beer world, I have proved to myself that inverting sugar doesn't achieve much, as fructose is responsible for the cidery flavours. Even if this was not the case, the question arises why yeast would have more trouble splitting sucrose than maltose, and AFAIAA no-one has ever addressed that issue. Folks also differ over the ease with which this inversion (which is really just hydrolysis) is supposed to occur. One school of thought suggests substantial inversion occurs in a normal brew boil anyway because hydrolysis is normally a thermodynamically favourable process. Others claim for some reason that it won't work at all without aggressive mineral acids.

2. Beware of the salt content in breakfast spreads, although I guess the amount needed to get some Vit B may not be a problem in practice.

3. Beware of urea-based fertilizers and nutrients due to the possibility of ethyl carbamate formation. This stuff is sufficiently volatile to be a concern.

[HookLine]

2. Beware of the salt content in breakfast spreads, although I guess the amount needed to get some Vit B may not be a problem in practice.

Don't know about Promite or Marmite, but Vegemite contains 8% salt. Half a teaspoon dissolved into 20 litres gives a very low concentration of salt, just a few ppm, well below anything we have to worry about

In fact:

"...salt is required for proper yeast growth. ...By adding salt to your solution, you provided the yeast with a factor that it requires."
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/no ... .Gb.r.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Indeed, yeast contains a salt tolerant gene:

"The HAL1 gene, an halotolerance gene isolated from yeast,..."
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/k ... 1/00172456" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This gene is being engineered into tomatoes and melons to increase salt tolerance.

As far as I can tell, Vegemite is a very safe source of B-vitamins for our purposes. I have never had any obvious problem with it.

3. Beware of urea-based fertilizers and nutrients due to the possibility of ethyl carbamate formation. This stuff is sufficiently volatile to be a concern.

So, use only use ammonium or nitrate sources for nitrogen?

[Ethanol Al]

Hello all, have been reading here for a few weeks and thought I wold join in the discussion. I have been messing around fermenting things and playing around with small stills since I was a kid but I really don't know much beyond the very basics. I built a C-803 fuel still a few years back and am just now getting around to operating it for the first time and I have a question about fermenting white sugar. I can see from this thread that there is a lot of things that go into a good white sugar ferment for drinking purposes but my interest is in making fuel for now so I was wondering if I need to follow all of the steps in this thread to get a good ferment for making fuel or if I could cut some corners and still have a good end result? I was honestly wondering since no one is going to drink this stuff if I could take a leak in the fermenter to provide a lot of the stuff that the yeast need to thrive? Well any way would love to hear what you guys may have to share on this topic, Thanks! Al

[rad14701]

Welcome to the forums, Ethanol Al... Regardless of whether fermenting for fuel, neutral spirits, or flavored spirits, yeast still need the same basic nutrients... Nutrients for neutral spirits would be what you're looking for... Depending on your situation it might actually be cheaper to use grains as nutrients than commercial nutrients... You're just shooting for the lowest price per gallon/liter cost you can replicate run after run...

[Ethanol Al]

Thanks for the reply rad, so you think maybe I should just crack and convert some corn and thrown in the fermenter and that should provide all the needed nutrients too feed the yeast? Then am I correct in thinking that I can save some of the spent wash from the boiler and add that to the next ferment as well? Thanks again for the help.

[gravy]

I do sugar washes in a 200 litre barrel. Each batch contains:

60 kg White Sugar
2 l Molasses
120g Urea
80g DAP
100g Skim Milk Powder
60 mls Sunflower Oil

For yeast I use 50g of L2226 (Lallemand).

The lees from the previous batch are left in the barrel for the next batch and about 90 litres of dregs from the still is backset. Fermentation takes 4 days at 28 degrees with plenty of aeration required to grow a kickass yeast colony. It ain't a clean ferment, but its cheap and a good still will tidy it up.

I finished a distilling a batch today and got a total 34.5 litres of alcohol (including nasties that get redistilled next batch). This represents an output at 82% of the maximum theoretical yield which is pretty damn good by commercial standards.

I have documentation on L2226 detailing fermentations up to 21% so I'm upping the sugar to 70kg next batch to see what I get.

Good luck,
Gravy

[scarecrow]

Vitamin B complexes can also be found in very large amounts in Vegemite, Promite, and Marmite

The only advantage I can see of these yeast spreads is that they have a lot of salt and sugar, besides the obvious yeast and malt extracts.
I wonder how much the salt helps the yeast.

Most multivitamins have much higher percentages of B group vitamins than vegemite. Some as much as 10X - 50X.

I've done trials with and without vegemite, and it made no difference (except the colour)

The only problem with multivitamins is that you end up with an orange tint through the wash because of the Beta-carotene (which is the stuff that makes a carrot orange). Might have to scrounge around for a beta-carotene-free multivitamin

Most multivitamins also contain Vitamin C - for that chlorine free feeling

Vegemite also contains Sulphur Dioxide as a preservative (gag, cough, splutter), which is probably used in just about every foodstuff know to man.

Saying that, it's hard to imagine toast without vegemite.

scarecrow

[muckanic]

The only problem with multivitamins is that you end up with an orange tint through the wash because of the Beta-carotene (which is the stuff that makes a carrot orange). Might have to scrounge around for a beta-carotene-free multivitamin

The B group multi's don't have carotene - that's a Vit A thing. Most still seem to have a yellow colour, which doesn't bother me too much.

[highpower]

sugar..ymmy.. nutritrant,, strong,, info** Good**

[VillaGorilla]

So here is the cheapest combination.
Ferment a hand full of whole corn meal in a quart jar for three days.
Combine this with the 26-6-6 fertilizer, the HFCS, cheap one a day multivitamin, pinch of Epsom salt, solar dechlorinated water, rain water, or well water.

Can anyone elaborate on this step of making the EconoWash? Ferment a handful of corn meal in quart jar- Is this just cornmeal and water? I can't see it fermenting much in three days without adding yeast or sugar. I'm new, but I have searched the site for cornmeal ferment starter info, without luck. Could someone spell this out for me, ie. quantities of what in the quart jar.

- or -

Does this only apply to "The cheapest combination", using these specifically chosen elements from the various recipe categories : "26-6-6 fertilizer, the HFCS, cheap one a day multivitamin, pinch of Epsom salt, solar dechlorinated water, rain water, or well water". (And thus I'd forgo the fermented cornmeal if I chose any of the other ingredient combinations?)

Thanks

[plaztikjezuz]

Good stuff, Pinto. If I may add a few comments:

A tip for using tap water. If you can set the tap water out in the direct sunlight uncovered in a shallow container, you can dechlorinate it in about 4 hours. This is cheaper than boiling. The UV from the sun causes the chlorine to combine with the free hydrogen in the water and it gases off really fast. My pool will dechlorinate 15000 gallons from 10ppm to nothing in a day without stabilizer. Tap water has no stabilizer.

Alternatively, you can add 1/10 tsp of vitamin C (as either sodium ascorbate or ascorbic acid) per 50 litres of wash, which will dechlorinate virtually instantly. You can buy them cheap from health food stores and a small pack lasts forever. Store in an airtight container in the fridge. Don't worry about putting in too much as it is hard to overdo it.

i would also point out that campden tablets or potassium/sodium metabisulfite with also treat chlorine/chloramine almost instantly it turns it into chloride and sulfate so if either of those are bad for the wash then i would use something else.

[Serenity]

I have never seen one with an N-P-K ratio of 20-20-20. That level of P would kill almost every plant species.

Except first early potatoes.

[gravy]

The http://www.nutritiondata.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow site is great but some care is required in applying the information you find there. The site is designed for humans, not yeast, and we aren’t quite the same. Humans can digest complex protein but yeast cannot. Molasses contains no protein, but is does contain inorganic nitrogen (also called crude protein) that yeast can utilise but humans cannot. Molasses isn’t a great source of nitrogen, but it does contain about 10g per kg.

Here’s my sugar wash recipe for producing 18% ABV in 72 hours. These are the quantities I use in a 240 litre brew barrel:

Sugar 69kg
Yeast Uvaferm 43 50g
Citric Acid 550g
Sodium Bicarbonate 230g
Potassium Carbonate 230g
Silicone Anti Foam 80ml
Black Strap Molasses 6kg
Vegemite 325g
Soy Meal 500g
Urea 500g
MAP 250g

Here’s the process:

Mix the Citric Acid, Sodium Bicarbonate & Potassium Carbonate with water (adding a little at a time) in a large pot or bucket. This reacts to produce a Citric Acid/Sodium Citrate/Potassium Citrate pH Buffer. Set aside.

Soak the Soy Meal in water overnight to soften. Blend with the Vegemite, Urea, MAP, Molasses and enough water to make ~15 litres. I use a commercial stick blender to do this because it melts domestic ones. It should be smooth enough that it easily disperses when added to the sugar/water mix without clumping or floating.

Put the sugar in the brew barrel and dissolve in tap warm water. Add the pH Buffer and 10 litres of the nutrient mix. Heat or cool to 30°C as required.

Pour a litre of boiling water over a teaspoon of soy meal. Blend it smooth and when it has cooled to 40°C add the yeast. Stir gently to dissolve and rest for 15 minutes. Add 250mls of the wash and rest for another 15 minutes. Inoculate the wash.

I aerate the wash for the first 24 hours. I also have a submersible pump to provide circulation and prevent yeast from settling. This runs until the end of fermentation. I brew outside and with this size vessel you need active heating and cooling to keep the brew at the right temperature.

The fermentation will foam enough that antifoam is a good idea if you don’t have enough headroom in your brewing barrel. Add it when you see the foam start to form at ~12 hours.

I slowly decrease the temperature so its 27°C at the 24 hours point which is pretty much the end of the growth phase. Add the rest of the nutrients at this point.

The starting S.G. will be close to 1.120 and it will be 0.990 after 72 hours.

This recipe is fast and cheap, but you will need a good still to clean it up. I double distil because it requires less intervention and that’s important for batches this size. With this system I can process finished product output at 80% of 100% efficient theoretical maximums and less than $1 per 40% litre of clean spirit.

[Bodhammer]

Pintoshine - How much Phosphoric acid should you add? I have 75% 5-Star food grade.

[tony184k]

what does dap stand for I have looked for meaning cant find thanks

[Teddysad]

DAP is Di-Ammonium Phosphate

It is readily available at HBS or winemakers suppliers

It is a great source of nitrogen for the yeast

[tony184k]

what does dap stand for I have looked for meaning cant find thanks

[Prairiepiss]

A quick HD Google search brought up all kinds of hits for DAP. The second link is a recent thread asking the same question.
http://www.google.com/search?rls=en-us& ... &rls=en-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[tony184k]

thanks

[Dorokd]

Help please!
It's my first fermentation.
My English is not good enought so I don't always understand the benefficial instructions written in this forum.
The question I still have is about adding nutrients to the sugar fermentation. My aim is to get a wash with the least flavours as possible' since I will distill it for medical alcohol (75%).
I statrted a fermentation with sucrose- 22 brix, using wine yeast. I added 3 g/Liter of DAP. What about the list of minelars noted in this post? Where do I get it? can it come "all in once"? What are the amounts needed? Will it not work without? What do I do if fermentation was started yesterday without any minerls. A winemaker told me to add some orange juice? Will it do the job?
Thank you all,
Dror.

[whiskymonster]

Once you built your rig, this is possibly the most useful page on the site.
Certainly top ten!
Thanks Mr p!