does wheat need malting?

[midlife_rebel]

Going to make up my first ag mash.
The feed store had everything I needed...

My grain bill is
70% cracked corn
16% wheat
14% malted barley ( malted myself thanks to absinthe's great write-up)

My question is...I know that the enzymes in the malted barley will work on converting some of the starches in the corn. Will it affect the wheat in the same way or does the wheat need malting as well.

I plan on cracking the wheat to aid in the ferment, but it that really necessary?


last and final question for the grain gurus,
The feed store only sold " wheat". I asked them if it was winter wheat and they looked at me like I was insane. Is there much difference taste wise between winter wheat and spring germinated wheat?

thanks guys.

[Prairiepiss]

Going to make up my first ag mash.
The feed store had everything I needed...

My grain bill is
70% cracked corn
16% wheat
14% malted barley ( malted myself thanks to absinthe's great write-up)

My question is...I know that the enzymes in the malted barley will work on converting some of the starches in the corn. Will it affect the wheat in the same way or does the wheat need malting as well.
Not if you malted barley has enough DP to convert your whole grain bill.
I plan on cracking the wheat to aid in the ferment, but it that really necessary?
Yes it is it needs to be opened up so you can get the starches out. So you can convert them to fermentable sugar.


last and final question for the grain gurus,
The feed store only sold " wheat". I asked them if it was winter wheat and they looked at me like I was insane. Is there much difference taste wise between winter wheat and spring germinated wheat?

thanks guys.

There are many types of wheat. Red wheat, white wheat, and winter wheat they all have a different flavor profile. So far all I have worked with is white wheat. And I will be running it off today. So I can't tell you much more then that. What does the wheat look like? Can you give us a pic?

[midlife_rebel]

Alright....did some digging and found some info by dnderhead on diastatic power calculations.

I AM NOT MAKING THIS BIG A MASH but simply made the weights proportionally bigger so I could use lb figures. (I am in metric land)

70% cracked corn...........56 lbs..............0 DP

16% unmalted wheat.......12.75 lbs..........0 DP

14% malted barley..........11.25 lbs..........110 DP/lb total of 1237.5 DP

overall DP of 1237.5 divided by 80 lbs of grain equals 15.47 Too low a DP

BUT>>>>>>>>>

70% cracked corn...........56 lbs..............0 DP

16% malted wheat..........12.75 lbs..........120 DP/lb total of 1530 DP

14% malted barley..........11.25 lbs..........110 DP/lb total of 1237.5 DP

overall DP of 2767.5 divided by 80 lbs of grain equals 34.6 which should be enough DP

Now did I get this right?

The DP of malted 2 row and 6 row is different so to be safe I used the lowest

here is a pic of the wheat....feed manufacturer is closed today for the holiday but hopefully tomorrow I can find out what type it is. I got some malting to do in the meantime. I tried to look up what red and white wheat looks like but on a computer you can't seem to tell. The red wheat looks whitish to me and the white wheat looks reddish. go figure
thanks guys

[Tater]

Think I read somewhere that as a rule of thumb . 2lbs malted barley will convert its self and 8 lbs other grains

[midlife_rebel]

Man that would make it far easier to calculate. Thanks Tater

Just to double check though...is that .2 lbs of malted barley or 2 lbs of malted barley

thanks again

[Dnderhead]

thats 2lb or 20%.
.20X total amount of grain.using a base malt (in US) this generally gives you plenty of enzymes.

[midlife_rebel]

Thanks Dnderhead, definitely will help with the math knowing that ratio.

wish me luck...going to try malting some barley and some wheat.
I figure for less than a couple bucks, it will at the least be a learning experiment

[rtalbigr]

The feed store only sold " wheat". I asked them if it was winter wheat and they looked at me like I was insane. Is there much difference taste wise between winter wheat and spring germinated wheat?

thanks guys.

Winter wheat only refers to when it was planted, it can be red or white. White wheat will give softer flavors, red wheat is spicier.

Big R

[midlife_rebel]

hey washashore...all is good. I am trying to figure it all out as well, so your goal is mine too!

[Dnderhead]

DP is rather simple.first you have to know the DP (L) of the malt. then average for the amount of grain.this average needs to be 30 or more.

say you want 25 lb of grain.part of witch is going to be raw (unmalted) and part a base malt with a DP(L) of 120.

ok we can do it this way,,, 25lb (grain bill) x 30 (the DP we need)=750, so we need at least 750dp for that amount of grain. 750<120=6.20 So we need at least 6.20lb of this malt. this is consederd the least amount of malt you can use.

so to be on the safe side ,and use 7lb of this malt and 18lb of raw grain,,7 x 120=890 < 25lb=33.6 DP. now the DP is over 30 so your safe.

[midlife_rebel]

finally got word back from the grain supplier and it is "red wheat". The DP is 207 according to midwestsupplies.com

[Prairiepiss]

finally got word back from the grain supplier and it is "red wheat". The DP is 207 according to midwestsupplies.com

I thought you said you got the wheat from a feed store? That would be unmalted and not have any DP? If you are malting it yourself you can't go by there numbers? I would go by the lowest number in the range for that grain. Just to be sure. I could be wrong as I'm trying to learn it to.

[midlife_rebel]

I sure could of been clearer on that on hahaha.

I did get the raw grains from the feed store, and the info that the wheat was red wheat. The DP came from a website on beer brewing regarding red wheat.

Yes, I am malting it myself. Tap roots on both the barley and the wheat are now about 1/8" long. I have kept them both separate to malt, as I am sure the will have different growth rates. I did 20 lbs of each for my first go at it. Hopefully it should give me a fair bit of extra for future batches.

It seems straightforward enough, but I will let you know if I see any of the mold that seems to show up on germinated grains appears. wish me luck

As a real off-topic....anyone have any ideas where to buy peat in the US or canada? (Its not for the bourbon....scotch will come later on) I don't think the garden center peat is the same thing as the peat which is used to smoke the malted barley in scotch whiskeys. Seems to be a real lack of info on the web regarding if it is the same or not.

[rad14701]

As a real off-topic....anyone have any ideas where to buy peat in the US or canada? (Its not for the bourbon....scotch will come later on) I don't think the garden center peat is the same thing as the peat which is used to smoke the malted barley in scotch whiskeys. Seems to be a real lack of info on the web regarding if it is the same or not.

Ever seen a bag of sphagnum peat moss at the garden centers...???

[midlife_rebel]

I have Rad14701, in fact I have a bag of it sitting in my shed. Is it the same as the peat that is burnt for the scotch though?
Googled for a long time a few days ago, but could not find that answer anywhere.
Sure hope it is as I have both a smoker and garden center peat moss. That would make it really easy for me.

[midlife_rebel]

I guess from wikipedia and others that...peat is just a generic term for partially decayed vegetation, trees, grasses, fungi, as well as other types of organic remains, such as insects, and animal remains.

So it sounds like peat is simply peat and may not be a huge difference once burned. The smoke "should" be relatively similar regardless of the plant source once its decayed.

[midlife_rebel]

Just thought I would show you the progress on my malting.

For both the barley and the wheat

rinsed both thoroughly with lukewarm tap water. (I live in a city and it is chlorinated here)
Let each soak for 6 hours with enough water to cover the seeds.
Drained each one and let rest for 6 hrs

then 2 more cycles of this

Let each soak for 6 hours with enough water to cover the seeds.
Drained each one and let rest for 6 hrs

I then placed in aluminum trays covered with foil
trays are aprox 3 inches deep

I did leave about 1/3 of the barley in an allergen slip cover pillow case. (it drains really well and was going to be thrown out)
Both grew roots quite easily, but the pillow case one is alot easier to stir up the grains with. simply knead it around a bit.
In 4 days this is what I have.
wheat has rootlets and it appears that the main shoot comes out beside where the root comes out. (I have to look into this)

the barley is more aggressive in growth and has 3-4 rootlets per seed. I will check tomorrow to see if the inner stalk is between 3/4 and full length of the seed inside.

[midlife_rebel]

barley to compare

[Dnderhead]

the wheat you have is hall-less ,you want the shoot about the length of grain.if the grain has halls you will need to cut it open to see.
grain that has been malted will be sort of crunchy.

[midlife_rebel]

Thanks Dnderhead, I did not even know that there was hall-less, let alone that that is what I have.

The main stalk does grow from the bottom of hall-less wheat. When the hall is intact I guess it shields it from view until it cracks the top of the hall open.
looks like the wheat I should be able to dry tomorrow. Right now the shoot is about 1/3 the length of the grain.
thanks for your help man, I appreciate it

[Dnderhead]

on some grain the halls are "crispy"? and in handling the halls brake off.then its "winnowed" this is just passing in front of a fan,this blows the chaff away.this is a good thing if making flour.and yes you have it right about being hidden on that with halls.

[Prairiepiss]

I thought all wheat was sold without hulls? And that was one of the reasons beer brewers have such problems lautering? And they add rice hulls to help it flow? Or did I miss something?

[Dnderhead]

the hulled variety is usually used for feed but not always.its also used when wanted for long term storage.
the hulless or naked variety is sold and is used soon after harvesting.lacking the hull it does not have the
protection of the hall.less processing is required with the naked type so its popular for food processing.

[Prairiepiss]

Good to know. Thanks Dnderhead.

By the way the malting is looking good. You may have got me thinking about it. Damnit.

[Dnderhead]

by the way they do have other grain "naked" like barley (thank of soup) its just the way the grain is bread.
if it has loose hulls or tight hulls ,if loose then the halls come off when processing.if the hulls are tight
then the halls have to be removed during grinding or tumbled this means more work.

[Prairiepiss]

So are you going to dry the malted grains or use them green?
How are you going to knock the rootlets off? Or Do you have to?

I just bought a 50# bag of feed wheat. Mine appears to be white wheat. And plan to malt 10# of it. So I'm very interested in how yours worked out. But I will need to dry mine. So I can store it better.

Sory don't want to hijack your thread. But I didn't want to start another one about the same thing you are doing.

[midlife_rebel]

Prairiepiss, I will be drying this batch as I made more than what I will be using for this run.
From what I have seen, rubbing the dried grains over a course screen will knock the roots off easily. I am not 100% that you have to do this but every write-up shows them doing it.
Monday I will be drying and roasting the barley. At work we have big drying fans so I may as well use their stuff, that way I can dry it all in one go.
As the grain is to the correct point now...I have it outside which is around 40F so the growth will basically slow to nothing till I can dry it.
I will post some pics on tues when it is done. Then its time to do the corn mash!!

[midlife_rebel]

and man....feel free to add to this thread. Only thing that can be gained from it is our common knowledge!

[Prairiepiss]

Thanks I will let you know how it goes for me.

[Prairiepiss]

Midlife what temp water are you using to soak the grains?