I saw a post over on Yahoo where they filled copper tubing with water sealed both ends then chucked it in the freezer 'till frozen before winding the coil. Water and ice won't compress so it makes sense to me but I was wondering if anyone on this board has tried this method?
Any thoughts would be appreciated as I've never been able to wind a double coil....
??Winding a coil??
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Dutchmancreek
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pintoshine
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hookline told a lot about he winds coils. He and I share in that we don't use any filler. You notice I have been winding a lot of small coils for my model pot stills. I only use a round piece of pipe as a form and a lot of pulling force. It flattens the tubing if you are in a real tight turn but it never kinks if the pulling pressure is kept on. I have wound fro 1/4" up to 3/4" soft tubing this way. You do have to have patience though.
Thanks
Thanks for pointing to Hookline, I found several of his posts and his photobucket also. His parallel coil idea is the way I'll try this time. Keeping the copper tight as you suggest will hopefully get the inside coil done without kinking. I've tried filling with salt but must have missed a spot and wasn't able to get the job done so I've been packing my coil with scrubbers which works but I really would like more cooling capacity for stripping runs.pintoshine wrote:hookline told a lot about he winds coils. He and I share in that we don't use any filler. You notice I have been winding a lot of small coils for my model pot stills. I only use a round piece of pipe as a form and a lot of pulling force. It flattens the tubing if you are in a real tight turn but it never kinks if the pulling pressure is kept on. I have wound fro 1/4" up to 3/4" soft tubing this way. You do have to have patience though.
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dixiedrifter
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I have never seen wire coil tubing benders small enough for 1/4 or 3/8 tubing but have been kicking around the idea of trying an appropriately sized spring from the hardware store... Something like a screen door spring with an ID the same size as the OD of the tubing might work... I used the same concept years ago for bending brake line in areas that I couldn't get my regular bender into... This technique would also help in maintaining a small air gap between coils... You just need to make sure you move the spring often enough to not get it bound up to a point where you can't move it by spinning it on the tubing...
Check at a refrigeration supply store where i got mine from 1/4 to 3/4.rad14701 wrote:I have never seen wire coil tubing benders small enough for 1/4 or 3/8 tubing but have been kicking around the idea of trying an appropriately sized spring from the hardware store... Something like a screen door spring with an ID the same size as the OD of the tubing might work... I used the same concept years ago for bending brake line in areas that I couldn't get my regular bender into... This technique would also help in maintaining a small air gap between coils... You just need to make sure you move the spring often enough to not get it bound up to a point where you can't move it by spinning it on the tubing...
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
I'll ask at the parts counter because the sets they have on display don't go that small at any of the places I've checked... They're one of those items I keep an eye out for whenever I'm getting my hardware store fix... I'm doing better now... I used to have to go the at least one hardware store every weekend...tater wrote:Check at a refrigeration supply store where i got mine from 1/4 to 3/4.rad14701 wrote:I have never seen wire coil tubing benders small enough for 1/4 or 3/8 tubing but have been kicking around the idea of trying an appropriately sized spring from the hardware store... Something like a screen door spring with an ID the same size as the OD of the tubing might work... I used the same concept years ago for bending brake line in areas that I couldn't get my regular bender into... This technique would also help in maintaining a small air gap between coils... You just need to make sure you move the spring often enough to not get it bound up to a point where you can't move it by spinning it on the tubing...
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pintoshine
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http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... umber=3755" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
this is a cheap solution.
this is a cheap solution.
Minime, glad you found that stuff useful.
Rad, like Tater said, you can get small winding springs at refrigeration trade suppliers. Not sure if they will wind tight enough to do the small inner coil.
Pinto, will that tool do continuous coils, and tight enough for the inner coil?
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
As to the tube flattening out to some degree when wound without filler (mostly on the inner coil, but also a little bit on the outer coil), that is a double-edged sword:
It does increase resistance to water flow, which can be a problem for recirculating coolant systems which use pumps that need a high flow rate, (though that can be overcome by using 2 or more parallel coils).
But in changing the cross-sectional shape of the tubing from circular to (more-or-less) elliptical, the flattening also increases the ratio of the cross-sectional perimeter of the tubing to its cross-sectional area (ie the heat exchange surface area to volume of coolant).
This increases the rate of heat exchange per unit length of tubing, which means you need less overall coil length to exchange the same amount of heat with the same amount of coolant.
Overall, it is the same general effect as using slightly smaller tubing (without flattening).
Rad, like Tater said, you can get small winding springs at refrigeration trade suppliers. Not sure if they will wind tight enough to do the small inner coil.
Pinto, will that tool do continuous coils, and tight enough for the inner coil?
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
As to the tube flattening out to some degree when wound without filler (mostly on the inner coil, but also a little bit on the outer coil), that is a double-edged sword:
It does increase resistance to water flow, which can be a problem for recirculating coolant systems which use pumps that need a high flow rate, (though that can be overcome by using 2 or more parallel coils).
But in changing the cross-sectional shape of the tubing from circular to (more-or-less) elliptical, the flattening also increases the ratio of the cross-sectional perimeter of the tubing to its cross-sectional area (ie the heat exchange surface area to volume of coolant).
This increases the rate of heat exchange per unit length of tubing, which means you need less overall coil length to exchange the same amount of heat with the same amount of coolant.
Overall, it is the same general effect as using slightly smaller tubing (without flattening).
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Be discreet.
And have fun.
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BW Redneck
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Found my spring bender at a local Lowe's. Came in a set with 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", and 5/8".
Pinto: I've used something similar for bending electrical conduit.
Pinto: I've used something similar for bending electrical conduit.
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance... baffle them with bullshit."
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."
"Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see"
20lt small pot still, working on keg
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."
"Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see"
20lt small pot still, working on keg
I've had that bender for 30 years... Not quite suitable for bending a coil... I haven't had problems bending coils, even without filling the tubing, but might try whipping up a jig capable of various diameters... Might have to wait for warmer weather though...pintoshine wrote:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... umber=3755
this is a cheap solution.
Jig ?
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: An even bigger GRIN
QDanT wrote:Well never mind Zen and the art of copper pipe coiling - after I'd worn a groove in my knee and kinked a couple of turnsI went away and gave it some thought
and came up with this "idiot" proof simple jig :-
3 bits of wood the two uprights with holes for the winding pipe , to suit the size of coil and these with a brace across the bottom.The winding pipe has a few holes through to pass a piece of wire through to stop the coil turning.Twisted tight when the pipe is in place either parallel or at 90*.Stood on a small step ladder and filled the pipe,from both ends,with salt.Then pushing down on the pipe with one hand and rolling the winding pipe the other via a couple of bolts through it as levers produced :-
hope this might help and put a little back for all I've learnt so far
cheers all Danny
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manu de hanoi
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Thanks to all who replied to this post
Thanks to all who replied! Great pics of a simple jig QDanT. Since this thread has been made a sticky I promise to post pics of my new coil attempt. Unfortunately it will be some time from now because we are moving and my tool room is all packed up.
The up side of this is.....I'm getting a garage and lots more room for fermenting, stilling, building, and experimenting. I've been doing this for about ten years but didn't really know anything 'till I stumbled onto this forum. What a resource! The fellow that taught me (since passed on) would be thrilled with my newfound understanding.
The up side of this is.....I'm getting a garage and lots more room for fermenting, stilling, building, and experimenting. I've been doing this for about ten years but didn't really know anything 'till I stumbled onto this forum. What a resource! The fellow that taught me (since passed on) would be thrilled with my newfound understanding.
Re: ??Winding a coil??
I'm only a lowly newbie and even I've answered this question more than I care to mention. So, I'll add to the Sticky...
First, thanks to QT What an excellent Jig. I can't over emphasise how well it works. Just pack salt and seal both ends. The trick as QT said is to apply firm even pressure to the tube near the bend. Make sure there are no voids of salt in the bend or you will get kinks. I did a double coil 20 ft. of 1/4 tubing around a 1/2 center without a single kink. Took longer to build the jig than to turn the coil. Excellent!!
I made a slight change of his jig though. I used 18 in standard black pipe instead of the copper pipe. First, it's cheaper. Second it's threaded on both ends.
This allowed an addidition of a cap. Now the jig can be turned with a large crescent or 1/2 ratchet wrench- a little more torque.
After your done you will need to de-salt the coil. Using a standard coil fitting - mine was 1/4 od to 1/2 MIP - male pipe- and a 1/2 MIP to standard hose fitting , hook up to any hose fawcett. Now, just turn on the water for hours and hours and hours. At first you will get nothing, then a small salty trickle , than a full blast.
This will take a long time. If you have a washer tub, it likey fas a hose fitting on the end of the fawcett. This will enable use of hot water which will speed things up considerably- 3 or 4 hrs. I've also read that gently rocking the coil loosens the salt, but being lazy I just let the hot water do it's work.
When winding your coil leave 1/4- 1/2 in spacing between each row and between the first wind and the second. This will give better heat exchange. You will notice I did not. I did it before I knew better. However with 20 ft. of coil I don't think that it will matter.
Last you might try Hook's excellent condenser design. In it to seperate coils are run one outside the other. Then, one end of each is connected to a cold finger up the middle of the coil and provides the water, and the other is connceted to an outlet pipe. The advantage to this is that you have cut Coefficent of Fluid Resistence in half. Twice the flow, twice the cooling . And with the added bonus of the cold finger. Same sized condenser Package. Great design Hook!! Simplicity and efficency. That is what design is all about.
First, thanks to QT What an excellent Jig. I can't over emphasise how well it works. Just pack salt and seal both ends. The trick as QT said is to apply firm even pressure to the tube near the bend. Make sure there are no voids of salt in the bend or you will get kinks. I did a double coil 20 ft. of 1/4 tubing around a 1/2 center without a single kink. Took longer to build the jig than to turn the coil. Excellent!!
I made a slight change of his jig though. I used 18 in standard black pipe instead of the copper pipe. First, it's cheaper. Second it's threaded on both ends.
This allowed an addidition of a cap. Now the jig can be turned with a large crescent or 1/2 ratchet wrench- a little more torque.
After your done you will need to de-salt the coil. Using a standard coil fitting - mine was 1/4 od to 1/2 MIP - male pipe- and a 1/2 MIP to standard hose fitting , hook up to any hose fawcett. Now, just turn on the water for hours and hours and hours. At first you will get nothing, then a small salty trickle , than a full blast.
This will take a long time. If you have a washer tub, it likey fas a hose fitting on the end of the fawcett. This will enable use of hot water which will speed things up considerably- 3 or 4 hrs. I've also read that gently rocking the coil loosens the salt, but being lazy I just let the hot water do it's work.
When winding your coil leave 1/4- 1/2 in spacing between each row and between the first wind and the second. This will give better heat exchange. You will notice I did not. I did it before I knew better. However with 20 ft. of coil I don't think that it will matter.
Last you might try Hook's excellent condenser design. In it to seperate coils are run one outside the other. Then, one end of each is connected to a cold finger up the middle of the coil and provides the water, and the other is connceted to an outlet pipe. The advantage to this is that you have cut Coefficent of Fluid Resistence in half. Twice the flow, twice the cooling . And with the added bonus of the cold finger. Same sized condenser Package. Great design Hook!! Simplicity and efficency. That is what design is all about.
Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink-- under any circumstances.
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Re: ??Winding a coil??
Thanks for the compliments. But once again, it is not my original design and I cannot take credit for it. I got the basic idea from a coil Hornedrhodent made (scroll down to the 8th pic).Oaty wrote:Last you might try Hook's excellent condenser design. In it to seperate coils are run one outside the other. Then, one end of each is connected to a cold finger up the middle of the coil and provides the water, and the other is connceted to an outlet pipe. The advantage to this is that you have cut Coefficent of Fluid Resistence in half. Twice the flow, twice the cooling . And with the added bonus of the cold finger. Same sized condenser Package. Great design Hook!! Simplicity and efficency. That is what design is all about.
http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Image:19_ ... oil-1-.jpg
Did you upload that photo of my coil to the wiki? It's not a problem, I just don't remember doing it.
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
Re: ??Winding a coil??
Yes, already had your condenser picture. So, I uploaded it while adding my post. Saved me from taking a pic of my own. Might have to get up or something. Ya' know.
Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink-- under any circumstances.
- Mark Twain's Notebook
- Mark Twain's Notebook
Re: ??Winding a coil??
Okay ! Your right ! The praise goes to Hornedrhodent! But yours does look prettier
Your right ! The praise goes to Hornedrhodent! But yours does look prettier Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink-- under any circumstances.
- Mark Twain's Notebook
- Mark Twain's Notebook
Re: ??Winding a coil??
Yup, I'll take credit for that.Oaty wrote:But yours does look prettier
Be safe.
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Be discreet.
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vajravarahi
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Re: ??Winding a coil??
I have to say I am so totally impressed with the folks here. (insert bowing down icon here)
Re: ??Winding a coil??
Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink-- under any circumstances.
- Mark Twain's Notebook
- Mark Twain's Notebook
Re: ??Winding a coil??
Well guys and girls, I did put together QdanT's jig and wound what I thought was a pretty good looking coil but when I tried to slide it off the jig it wouldn't budge. By the time I did get it off it didn't look so pretty any more. I have to admit I requested a coil from Alex Bakakob (actually 2 coils) but haven't got them yet. I'm completely ashamed but don't see my coil making skills getting any better without spending a whole lotta money on 1/4 tubing. If Alex can't find the time to wind me what I need I'll likely go to a cold finger condenser. Maybe I'm using the wrong kind of tubing or something and I usually don't give up easily but I've ruined over 100ft of tubing. I envy Hookline's beautifully spaced double coil/cold finger. Absolutely gorgeous! I make pretty good neutrals and I'm soon to try my first PugiRum but I think it's time to leave coil making to the pro's.
Re: ??Winding a coil??
Here are several pieces of advice should you ever make another attempt at winding a condenser coil... You can lubricate the jig arbor with soap, wax, oil, wax paper, or just about anything slippery, in an effort to make removal easier... You can also attempt to thread the coil off the arbor... Don't grab around the condenser to get it off as you'll just insure a tighter bind... Instead, start at the back end of the coiled copper and gently twist it from the end of the end coil... This will cause the coil to open slightly, loosening the grip it has on the arbor... With a little finesse the coil should start threading itself off the end of the arbor shaft...minime wrote:Well guys and girls, I did put together QdanT's jig and wound what I thought was a pretty good looking coil but when I tried to slide it off the jig it wouldn't budge. By the time I did get it off it didn't look so pretty any more. I have to admit I requested a coil from Alex Bakakob (actually 2 coils) but haven't got them yet. I'm completely ashamed but don't see my coil making skills getting any better without spending a whole lotta money on 1/4 tubing. If Alex can't find the time to wind me what I need I'll likely go to a cold finger condenser. Maybe I'm using the wrong kind of tubing or something and I usually don't give up easily but I've ruined over 100ft of tubing. I envy Hookline's beautifully spaced double coil/cold finger. Absolutely gorgeous! I make pretty good neutrals and I'm soon to try my first PugiRum but I think it's time to leave coil making to the pro's.
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tracker0945
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Re: ??Winding a coil??
Just a small tip that I learned.
If you make a jig, make sure that your mandrel is made from a hard material.
My first effort was to wind the copper around a timber broomstick which made a beautiful corkscrew indent around the broomstick and subsequently made it very difficult to remove the coil.
Cheers.
If you make a jig, make sure that your mandrel is made from a hard material.
My first effort was to wind the copper around a timber broomstick which made a beautiful corkscrew indent around the broomstick and subsequently made it very difficult to remove the coil.
Cheers.
2"x38" Bok mini and
Pot still with Leibig on 45 litre boiler
Pot still with Leibig on 45 litre boiler