Water in ethanol

[bcubed]

Hello, all! 1st time poster.

I remember from my flying days, when auto gas was first approved as a substitute for avgas. You had to make sure the mogas didn't contain ethanol, as it could attack certain rubber components in the fuel line.

The test was to fill a test tube 20% with water, mark a line, top off with gas, cap and shake. If ethanol was present, it would combine with the water so that the "not gas" portion would extend above the line (ETOH/H2O mix).

Back to deterioration of rubber: today's cars are specifically designed to withstand alcohol as a fuel. To the best of my knowledge, ETOH as an additive dates to the first "fuel crisis." So, I'm guessing that ethanol's safe in cars made after the mid/late 70's (obv. check with your owner's manual).

Incidentally, the aviation community uses Prist as an additive to prevent water in the tanks from icing up at altitude clogging stuff. It's diethylene glycol monomethyl ether (DEGMME), and is mixed 0.1% to the fuel. Is this the same stuff as dry gas? Would this allow 192 proof w/o filtration?

[robtemple]

WHY WOULD LOWER PROOF BE BETTER THAN HIGHER ? AINT HIGHER BETTER? LOWER WOULD ONLY PRODUCE LOWER OCTANE? JUST LEARNING!

[robtemple]

WANT TO PRODUCE FOR LAWN MOWER FIRST THAN FOR TRUCK OIL TO HIGH

[Hack]

WHY WOULD LOWER PROOF BE BETTER THAN HIGHER ? AINT HIGHER BETTER? LOWER WOULD ONLY PRODUCE LOWER OCTANE? JUST LEARNING!

Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive the measure of Octane relates to how long it takes an amount of fuel to burn. Higher octane gas in your car helps prevent pinging because it takes longer for it to burn. Water in Ethanol may have the same effect as raising the octane by making it take longer to burn. I don't know if they are still available but there used to be an add on water injection system you could put on your car to help reduce pinging. Adding water to the fuel mixture makes it take longer to burn which reduced the ping.

[robtemple]

makes sense thanks!

[trthskr4]

Henry Ford made the Model T to run on ethanol or gas. So it dates back that far, not just this or even the Carter administration.

[Uncle Jesse]

Fords original idea was locally produced fuel, farmers fueling their communities. The oil companies had this nasty byproduct called "gasoline" which they couldn't use very well. Their ability to provide lots of it and put stations on corners eventually won out. Ford had a bit of a time getting his cars to run on the less-than-clean gasoline though.

Thanks, Henry.

[BillHoo]

So, would I be able to dump the heads into my gasoline powered car without any ill effects?

[BillHoo]

Fords original idea was locally produced fuel, farmers fueling their communities. The oil companies had this nasty byproduct called "gasoline" which they couldn't use very well. Their ability to provide lots of it and put stations on corners eventually won out. Ford had a bit of a time getting his cars to run on the less-than-clean gasoline though.

Thanks, Henry.

That was also Rudolph Diesel's idea when he invented the diesel engine that bears his name. The idea was that farmers could produce fuel out of vegetable oils they produced on their own farm.

Diesel was on his way to speak on the practicalities of his engine vs. the current engine and fuel technologies when he disappeared. He was later found floating in the ocean and badly decomposed.

[Hawke]

So, would I be able to dump the heads into my gasoline powered car without any ill effects?

Most of the newer injected vehicles can handle ethanol. There are a few tweeks that must be made though. Pre- OBDII vehicles and carburated vehicles need some major work to run it, as the rubber and plastics used will deteriorate very quickly.

[res06suc]

Hey, J0HNmhs I don't see that anyone answered your question re. mixing gasoline + ethanol outside a car's gas tank to force a phase separation. Too bad. Simple question with significant implications.

Lets try again and see if anyone has actually done the following:

--Add 25 gallons[or other amount] of gasoline to a barrel.
--Add 25 gallons[or other amount] of 160-190 proof ethanol to same barrel.
--Stir/Mix
--Wait several hours.
--Siphon off E50 gasoline from top of liquid leaving water at bottom.

Seems to me that if you create conditions similar to an automobile gas tank you should logically experience the same issues, ie, much of the water separates out. In this case if falls to the bottom of a barrel instead of your gas tank.

Has anyone actually done this

[Dnderhead]

Water alcohol mixes/ gas alcohol mixes/ water ,alcohol, gas does not mix, if you have gas/ alcohol mix then add water --alcohol/ water
drops out , leaving gas and a mix of water/alcohol.(not gas alcohol) the three just will not mix. (maybe with other chemicals added ?)

[rad14701]

Additionally, you need far higher ABV ethanol than 160-190 proof... I used to do nation-wide automotive trouble-shooting for Chrysler corporation... Some 30 years ago, when refineries were first attempting to introduce ethanol into fuel mixes, we were pulling tanks right and left to drain the accumulated water out... Not only that, the ethanol was stripping the galvanization from the inside of some of the tanks so they had to be entirely replaced... We also had issues with any rubber in the fuel path... It was quite costly, sometimes amounting to close to $1,000 in repairs to a new vehicle valued at only $4,000-$10,000... It got to the point where the corporation didn't want to cover the expenses as a warranty repair... Unfortunately, going after the refineries was no easier then than it is now...

[Ugly]

I pull methanol off charcoal production and distill it.

Generally speaking, you make cuts the same as you do with making hootch. You keep the purest stuff for drying (94 per cent or better) and the rest goes back in for more time in the still at some later date.

Yeah you can dry with zeolite, and it does work VERY well - just not with the crap you buy in an aquarium or pool sales store. Zeolite is in fact a molecular sieve as someone stated. You need Zeolite A3 . A3 stands for the maximum size of molecules it absorbs. You don't want A5, nor A4 to separate alcohol and water. You want A3. This is not a hugely common product, but there are sources of supply and you will find those by contacting companies that deal with desiccants. I live in Canuckistan, you can procure Zeolite A3 in Canada from companies such as Desican Inc.

Someone mentioned how hard a time they were having with Zeolite in drying in this thread. I assure you, I've never had a bump with it. It's so easy I scrapped plans for a vacuum stil. The problem is once you get your product as close to anyhydrous as you can, you need to get it into a container with as little air available to it as possible. That's means fill whatever it's going into and use it all at once or it will suck the water right ot of the air and there you go back to 95 per cent where you started.(Gas cans are great for smaller scale production. 20 Gallon drums are perfect for filling the truck.)

Just sharing some thoughts...

Regards,
Ugly

[reb1251]

I've mixed my stuff with gas in a milk jug. I let the water settle to the bottom and pour off the top in the lawn mower just for the fun of it. I think some gaskets do not hold up to ethanol.

[Teddysad]

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shows it being done