my all sugar wash - few questions

[lovebeer]

i got some turbo yeast today. it makes 6.5 gallons but my mr beer keg only holds 2 so i calculated the weight of everything using 5 lbs of sugar instead of the necessary 18 lbs to make 6.5 gallons. the results were 1.5277 gallons of water and 48.611 grms of yeast (whole package is 175 grms.) i think those figures are right (but if anyone sees a mistake let me know)

also on the package it says DO NOT airlock fermenter. my mr beer keg doesn't have one, so this isn't really a problem, but why would it say this? the mr. keg has Co2 vents built into the lid, which act as a sort of airlock. i talked about this in my other thread, and the conclusion was basically leave the lid on loose. i was going to do this until i saw the airlock warning, should i just wrap the top with syran with holes in it? Also how to do you sterilize your fermentor? I was thinking a bleach/water solution of a ratio of something like 1:100. the keg is made of food grade plastic so i can't use any really caustic chemicals. And one other question: can i take tastes from my fermentor while it's still fermenting? from the spigot of course. sorry bout all the questions, just don't want to f*** it up.

[GingerBreadMan]

measurements sound right.

I did small turbo washes before. I just took the yeast out of the package and divided equally into three tupperware containers. I would pitch one container for a 10L batch (roughly 2 gallons give or take). I wasn't overly cautious about disinfecting the containers, just normal clean paper toweled dry.

I believe the air lock caution is for doing large ferments where you'll see temperature increases. I've used with and without a air lock - couldn't tell the difference.

I would use bleach to clean the fermenter, probably about a 1/4 cup, fill up the fermenter with water and let is sit for 30 minutes. Rinse completely with clean water 2-3 times and do a sniff test. If you can smell bleach, rinse again.

You can taste test it. I did and do. I'm a taster so I'll taste just about anything. At first it will taste like sweet lemon juice (probably the citric acid) and then it will go sour as the sugar ferments into alcohol.

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Are you distilling or drinking this? If you are drinking it, I would let it settle, drain it off and then boil it. This will kill any remaining yeast. Then you can add sugar to sweeten it up without having it referment.

[lovebeer]

measurements sound right.

I did small turbo washes before. I just took the yeast out of the package and divided equally into three tupperware containers. I would pitch one container for a 10L batch (roughly 2 gallons give or take). I wasn't overly cautious about disinfecting the containers, just normal clean paper toweled dry.

I believe the air lock caution is for doing large ferments where you'll see temperature increases. I've used with and without a air lock - couldn't tell the difference.

I would use bleach to clean the fermenter, probably about a 1/4 cup, fill up the fermenter with water and let is sit for 30 minutes. Rinse completely with clean water 2-3 times and do a sniff test. If you can smell bleach, rinse again.

You can taste test it. I did and do. I'm a taster so I'll taste just about anything. At first it will taste like sweet lemon juice (probably the citric acid) and then it will go sour as the sugar ferments into alcohol.

---------------

Are you distilling or drinking this? If you are drinking it, I would let it settle, drain it off and then boil it. This will kill any remaining yeast. Then you can add sugar to sweeten it up without having it referment.

i'm just drinking it. i could distill it with a tea kettle and some plastic tubing but this is a pretty bad way to do it. so i should boil it before bottling? but doesn't alcohol boil at 173 F? do you just mean heat it? at what temp does turbo yeast die? i know beer yeast dies above 103 F and anything below 30F. But turbo yeast must be different b/c a member told me you can freeze turbo yeast. Is this right or does turbo yeast also die below 30F?

is that 1/4th cup dry or liquid bleach? i have dry.

[Old_Blue]

About all ll yeast die when heated about 125f or so.

Almost no yeast die at 30f, or -30f for that matter. If yeast die when frozen there wouldn't be any after the first winter. Yeast don't grow in packs, it comes from the wild.

[GingerBreadMan]

Yeah, sorry I wasn't thinking when I typed in 'boil' - LOL

I heat it up to 55C which is about 130F. Important thing is you want the fermentation to be stopped by killing whatever yeast is left. Otherwise if you sweeten it, it will ferment all over again and you don't want that while it's bottled. The CO2 build up could pop your tops of the bottles.

1/4 is liquid bleach. I've never seen dry bleach so I don't know what the equivalent would be.

[junkyard dawg]

bleach is a really strong disinfectant. A capful would probably do you just fine, and its easier to rinse the smell out.

[lovebeer]

About all ll yeast die when heated about 125f or so.

Almost no yeast die at 30f, or -30f for that matter. If yeast die when frozen there wouldn't be any after the first winter. Yeast don't grow in packs, it comes from the wild.

really? does this apply to beer yeast too? if so this mr. beer book i have needs to be corrected. i don't think those people know jack about brewing tbh. so about the lid, should it be on loose or should i replace it with syran with holes? it may not be too crucial i just don't want the thing exploding.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't thinking when I typed in 'boil' - LOL

I heat it up to 55C which is about 130F. Important thing is you want the fermentation to be stopped by killing whatever yeast is left. Otherwise if you sweeten it, it will ferment all over again and you don't want that while it's bottled. The CO2 build up could pop your tops of the bottles.

1/4 is liquid bleach. I've never seen dry bleach so I don't know what the equivalent would be.

so if i kill the yeast by heating it i can use corks to cap the bottles right? because there is no more CO2 being generated? i might have just wasted money on 6 airlocks and stoppers.

[big worm]

cling wrap with holes is fine a clean towel will work turbos in sugar wash produce mucho off gas so air tight is bad and not real important{the turbo bomb}

[GingerBreadMan]

I've only made beer twice, but from my understanding of how it works is this

- you do a primary fermentation, then you rack it, and then do a secondary fermentation. After the beer is done fermenting, you bottle it. Drop a bit of sugar in each bottle - just enough to create some CO2 so the beer is not flat. The beer sits in the bottle for 30 days, pop it open and that's how you get the fizz.

With wine -

- there is a primary and secondary fermentation, then you add an additive that kills the yeast, something like potassium sorbate or potassium metabisulphite.

So, with beer you want a little bit of yeast to stay. With wine you want to kill it with a chemical or preservative. I've had wine, on the odd occassion 'uncork' themselves and make a bit of mess - usually happens in the first 30 days. Ever since I got a power drill mixer to get rid of all the CO2 it no longer happens.

But back to the Turbo yeast. This is a really highly active yeast. You could add an additive to kill it, but why. Heating it up to 55C will kill the yeast. Now you can add sugar and sweeten it up.

Hope this makes sense, and I'm no expert but this is what I've observed and I'm basing this on using this technique to kill the yeast when I don't have time to distill. I'll heat it up and then put it back in the carboy and put a rubber stopper (not an airlock) in it. I've never seen CO2 build up in the carboy after the yeast has been killed.

[Old_Blue]

Old_Blue wrote:
About all ll yeast die when heated about 125f or so.

Almost no yeast die at 30f, or -30f for that matter. If yeast die when frozen there wouldn't be any after the first winter. Yeast don't grow in packs, it comes from the wild.

really? does this apply to beer yeast too?

Beer, wine, distiller's, and baking yeast are all some version of Saccharomyces cerevisiae with each having their own characteristics.

Cold will cause yeast to go dormant which is why you can't ferment at 30f (lagering beer is a different thing) plus yeast are stored in the laboratory by freezing. There are some special techniques for this but throwing a pack of dry yeast in your home freezer won't hurt anything at all. Matter of fact, it is recommended for long term storage. Yeast have been on this earth since the beginning of time and have survived every winter so far.

Heat will kill yeast and this was discovered by Louis Pasteur in the 19th century. This is what is known as Pasteurization and is what GingerBreadMan is describing by heating the wine and is done everyday in the commercial beverage industries.

This is the short answer. The long answer takes a lifetime of study and is still not fully understood by PhD's.

Take these simple answers and run with it. You will learn much, much more by studying the vast amount of knowledge on the WWW and libraries than depending on someone like me to respond with a fragment of an answer that may cause more confusion than it clears up.

Good luck

[lovebeer]

Old_Blue wrote:
About all ll yeast die when heated about 125f or so.

Almost no yeast die at 30f, or -30f for that matter. If yeast die when frozen there wouldn't be any after the first winter. Yeast don't grow in packs, it comes from the wild.

really? does this apply to beer yeast too?

Beer, wine, distiller's, and baking yeast are all some version of Saccharomyces cerevisiae with each having their own characteristics.

Cold will cause yeast to go dormant which is why you can't ferment at 30f (lagering beer is a different thing) plus yeast are stored in the laboratory by freezing. There are some special techniques for this but throwing a pack of dry yeast in your home freezer won't hurt anything at all. Matter of fact, it is recommended for long term storage. Yeast have been on this earth since the beginning of time and have survived every winter so far.

Heat will kill yeast and this was discovered by Louis Pasteur in the 19th century. This is what is known as Pasteurization and is what GingerBreadMan is describing by heating the wine and is done everyday in the commercial beverage industries.

This is the short answer. The long answer takes a lifetime of study and is still not fully understood by PhD's.

Take these simple answers and run with it. You will learn much, much more by studying the vast amount of knowledge on the WWW and libraries than depending on someone like me to respond with a fragment of an answer that may cause more confusion than it clears up.

Good luck

thanks, i just started my mash today, but i made a few mistakes. i used comet to sanitize my mr beer keg and its only meant for hard surfaces like toilets (which i found out after i put in the keg), so it may have scratched the inside of the plastic. i also put a really hot spoon in the keg with the yeast to mix it up. it may have killed some of the yeast. also the first couple of hours the keg started to get really hard w/ the lid on (the part that has grooves which the lid screws onto has holes-these are the so called "vents") so i took off the lid and replaced it with syran and a towel over that. it may have worked w/ the lid but i don't want to take any chances. was it wrong to take off the lid during fermentation though?

Also do any of you guys use incubators? an incubator is just a container filled with water with another container floating inside of it with a heater heating up the water. the optimum temp for the fermentation is 77 F so that's why i use one. but i put like a cap of bleach in the water to make sure the water won't grow any mold or anything and this bleach might vaporize and i don't think vaporized bleach should be anywhere near my keg. I could just not use bleach. it's not a real necessity. what do you guys think?

[Old_Blue]

i used comet to sanitize my mr beer keg

>Shudder< Lesson learned.

i also put a really hot spoon in the keg with the yeast to mix it up. it may have killed some of the yeast.

Didn't do anything. Really hot means it was sanitized which is good. Try it every time.

also the first couple of hours the keg started to get really hard w/ the lid on

About to blow?:shock:

was it wrong to take off the lid during fermentation though?

No. Fermentation produces CO2 which is heavier than air and will blanket the top of the mash and keep out oxygen. If you can't configure a proper airlock on that thing just secure some plastic wrap over the opening and put a few small pin hole in it. Some do open fermentations all the time. Just cover with a cloth to keep the dust out and keep the breezes to a minimum.

The incubator is good if thats what you have to do to keep the mash warm. Don't let it overheat though. All that fermenting produces heat.
Cap of bleach shouldn't hurt anything as long as it was in a few gallons of water but actually isn't necessary at all IMHO.

[Old_Blue]

Lovebeer, Newbs, and nOObs, I address you all,

After reading over some some of these post I see a lot of me in a lot of y'all.
When I first started making beer and wine I read all I could and got about as confused as anybody. I was stressed out on my first batch of beer because I didn't have a thermometer that read three decimal places which some of the literature would have you believe you need to do a decent mash. After many, many batches and many, many years of experience I now have three temperatures instead of three decimal places...Too cold, too hot, and just right...aka the Goldilocks's method. You can't defeat the laws of nature or science but you can have a good time within the boundaries.

I'm self claimed to be an expert on world history even though I don't have any papers to show it and in the last decade specifically how beer and wine production and distribution effected who we are today. I realized that beer and wine making has been going on for thousands of years and distilling for at least a thousand(maybe before that, just not recorded) and I'll be damned if they could do it any better than me. After all, Noah was the first known wine maker and I'm reasonably sure he didn't have a hydrometer of one of those Mr. Beer thingies.

What I'm saying, and what I'm reading into your's and other's post, don't take it too the extreme, don't sweat the small stuff, and experiment with what you have. You wont be the first, or last, to pour one down the drain. You can make a decent brandy wash stomping grapes in a hole chiseled out of the bedrock.

Dooley, my friend and mentor, can't read or write but I'll put his product against anybody's and I know if he can do it, anybody can. He once spit tobacco juice on a thermometer I handed him. I was trying to talk him into putting it on his still head so I could see what was going on while he was running and making cuts. That's when he looked me in the eye and said " I ain't never seen thermometer with taste buds".

All I'm trying to say is relax, and have fun re-inventing the wheel.

[lovebeer]

Lovebeer, Newbs, and nOObs, I address you all,

After reading over some some of these post I see a lot of me in a lot of y'all.
When I first started making beer and wine I read all I could and got about as confused as anybody. I was stressed out on my first batch of beer because I didn't have a thermometer that read three decimal places which some of the literature would have you believe you need to do a decent mash. After many, many batches and many, many years of experience I now have three temperatures instead of three decimal places...Too cold, too hot, and just right...aka the Goldilocks's method. You can't defeat the laws of nature or science but you can have a good time within the boundaries.

I'm self claimed to be an expert on world history even though I don't have any papers to show it and in the last decade specifically how beer and wine production and distribution effected who we are today. I realized that beer and wine making has been going on for thousands of years and distilling for at least a thousand(maybe before that, just not recorded) and I'll be damned if they could do it any better than me. After all, Noah was the first known wine maker and I'm reasonably sure he didn't have a hydrometer of one of those Mr. Beer thingies.

What I'm saying, and what I'm reading into your's and other's post, don't take it too the extreme, don't sweat the small stuff, and experiment with what you have. You wont be the first, or last, to pour one down the drain. You can make a decent brandy wash stomping grapes in a hole chiseled out of the bedrock.

Dooley, my friend and mentor, can't read or write but I'll put his product against anybody's and I know if he can do it, anybody can. He once spit tobacco juice on a thermometer I handed him. I was trying to talk him into putting it on his still head so I could see what was going on while he was running and making cuts. That's when he looked me in the eye and said " I ain't never seen thermometer with taste buds".

All I'm trying to say is relax, and have fun re-inventing the wheel.

thanks for the advice. i see what you're saying about experience being more important reading about doing it. I'm just on a tight budget and i can't afford to mess up too many times with trial and error. it's turning out pretty good so far, but i have a few questions about bottling. How should I sanitize the bottles? the same way i sanitized the keg? (not w/ comet ) but w/ a bleach solution. how long should they sit? i've also heard of dry heat sterilization in which you put the bottles in the oven for 3 1/2 hrs but this seems like a waste of energy.

also i'm going to pasteurize and kill the yeast like you said before i bottle, but how should i fill the bottles afterward? i could put a funnel on top of each bottle, but does the funnel have to be sanitized too? i think it was gingerbreadman who said it would taste like lemons. it tastes like lemons and apples and smell is very apple-like, is this the way it should be?

[Old_Blue]

1. To sanitize the bottles just use a capfull of bleach per gallon of water and soak the bottles for 10 minutes, rinse until the smell of chlorine is gone. A commercial sanitizer like starsan is better but if you have bleach on hand and are on that tight of a budget use what you got.

2. Make sure the wash if fully pasteurized before bottling or they will carbonate further and not knowing exactly how much yeast/sugar if left you might end up with what is known as "beer bombs" which can be extremely dangerous from glass shrapnel. Be careful about heating an alcohol mixture on a stove, its as explosive as gasoline.

3. sanitize the funnel and everything else that might come in contact with the wash.

4. If you are making wash just to drink, try searching for some of wineo's post using canned juice concentrate. I've tried some and they are real good. Never tried just a sugar wash to drink but I can only imagine it won't be to your liking in the long run.

5. I don't recommend any of this. Look up on the internet the basic procedure for making wine (which is nothing but a sugar wash in reality - search for Jack Keller on Google) and follow those procedures. You will be better off.

[lovebeer]

1. To sanitize the bottles just use a capfull of bleach per gallon of water and soak the bottles for 10 minutes, rinse until the smell of chlorine is gone. A commercial sanitizer like starsan is better but if you have bleach on hand and are on that tight of a budget use what you got.

2. Make sure the wash if fully pasteurized before bottling or they will carbonate further and not knowing exactly how much yeast/sugar if left you might end up with what is known as "beer bombs" which can be extremely dangerous from glass shrapnel. Be careful about heating an alcohol mixture on a stove, its as explosive as gasoline.

3. sanitize the funnel and everything else that might come in contact with the wash.

4. If you are making wash just to drink, try searching for some of wineo's post using canned juice concentrate. I've tried some and they are real good. Never tried just a sugar wash to drink but I can only imagine it won't be to your liking in the long run.

5. I don't recommend any of this. Look up on the internet the basic procedure for making wine (which is nothing but a sugar wash in reality - search for Jack Keller on Google) and follow those procedures. You will be better off.

yea canned juice concentrate should work, that or spirit essence or sugar, tbh i couldn't care less if it tasted like gasoline. i have a high tolerance for awful tasting drinks. why don't you recommend any of this? what's so wrong about just drinking a mash? btw the i forgot to say i only have a candy/fry thermometer. will this be just as a accurate as a regular thermomter? it needs to be pretty accurate cause like u said if all the yeast isn't killed, you have a beer bomb. and if the temp is too high you're alcohol evaps. i'm looking to get it above 153, but below 173 right? If there is more than a 20 degree margin of error on my thermomter im going to have a problem.

btw, the basic procedure for making wine is complicated you need campden tablets and all kinds of chemicals. don't see how it relates at all. i'm passed the stage of making it. So is that apple smell normal?

[lovebeer]

so candy/fry thermometer just as accurate or should i get a regular one?

[lovebeer]

more importantly there's some brown sediment or something that looks like mold coming from the keg, when i go to take tastes from it. is this sediment or mold? is this normal? the liquid is a milky white color.

[rad14701]

more importantly there's some brown sediment or something that looks like mold coming from the keg, when i go to take tastes from it. is this sediment or mold? is this normal? the liquid is a milky white color.

I answered this in the other thread you posted it in... You don't need to ask the same question more than once...

[lovebeer]

more importantly there's some brown sediment or something that looks like mold coming from the keg, when i go to take tastes from it. is this sediment or mold? is this normal? the liquid is a milky white color.

I answered this in the other thread you posted it in... You don't need to ask the same question more than once...

i just wanted a quick answer b/c I bottle tommorow. any chance you can answer my question about the thermometer?

[Old_Blue]

Put thermometer in boiling pot of water. If it reads within 5 degree Fahrenheit of 212 its accurate enough.

[lovebeer]

Put thermometer in boiling pot of water. If it reads within 5 degree Fahrenheit of 212 its accurate enough.

thats a good idea. i should have thought of that

[lovebeer]

if i add nutrients to the yeast can i use it a second time? i know turbo yeast isn't meant to survive through generations, (which is why im finding dead yeast in the keg) but will adding nutrients get it active again?

also im thinking about distilling but like i said i don't have a lot of money. this may sound like a dumb idea, but could i use a tea kettle with a cooper or plastic tube attached to the spout to distill? i don't know how i would attach the tube to make an airtight seal.

[theholymackerel]

Lovebeer, we are happy for yer enthusiasm, but yer askin' really basic questions that have been answered over and over and over and over.

Plastic has been addressed in a handful of the "stickies" here and at least a hundread threads, reusin' yeast has been talked about to death also, turbos too.

In all kindness I'm gonna suggest that ya do some readin' and learn the basics, and when ya have a question it's polite to do a search of the site first. If ya search the site and don't find yer specific answer at least you'll have found the correct thread to ask yer question.






I wish ya luck.

[rad14701]

@lovebeer

Take the advice given by theholymackerel... Go read the main site, http://www.homedistiller.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow rather than the forums to learn the basics as that area is laid out better for skipping around... These forums are more for sharing experiences and comparing notes than for basic learning and it is not as easy to find what you might be looking for without exhaustive searching...

[lovebeer]

i looked on homedistiller.org and they said turbo yeast are generally not reused but they can be due to the strain of the yeast. they just ferment a lot slower w/ less alcohol and need nutrients obviously. but the cake layer of yeast has been sitting on the bottom of my keg w/out a "protective layer" of mash, so it may be contaminated. but the temp was stored in cold temps and i covered the keg lid with syran, so i'm not sure. due to the fact that it may be contaminated, it ferments slower and with less alcohol its prbly not worth the time. do people agree?

[muckanic]

The usual strategy for making sweet, naturally-fermented brews is to use an unfermentable sugar like lactose or an artificial sweetener. Yeast in nature survive the seasons by putting out spores which can theoretically survive all sorts of harsh conditions like boiling (but not pressure-cooking). Hydrated yeast generally won't survive freezing without a special medium being employed; dried yeast doesn't exist in nature.

[lovebeer]

The usual strategy for making sweet, naturally-fermented brews is to use an unfermentable sugar like lactose or an artificial sweetener. Yeast in nature survive the seasons by putting out spores which can theoretically survive all sorts of harsh conditions like boiling (but not pressure-cooking). Hydrated yeast generally won't survive freezing without a special medium being employed; dried yeast doesn't exist in nature.

well the hydrated yeast in the keg is in near freezing temps like 40 but not quite freezing. if it was all dead it would be brown right? I think it still alive b/c it is a milky white color with some patches of brown dead yeast.

[Old_Blue]

Don't worry about it. You don't have the equipment or environment to get yeast cold enough to kill it.