My Simple Sugar Wash

[swishy]

I'm new to this site, but I've been doing my own distilling for quite a while now. This is an awesome site and to help it out, I thought I'd add my own recipe to the mix. As the topic states, this is an extremely simple sugar wash.

Ingredients:

5 KG (or 27 cups, same amount) White or Brown sugar (I almost always use white, it's better to make flavored liqueurs and my "rye." Brown is more sweet with a slight rum taste.)
1 Jar 113G Fleischmann's Traditional Baker's Yeast
4.5 Gallons Water
6 Gallon carboy w/burper

Dissolve the 5 KG of sugar in the water. I usually boil water, pour it in the carboy and add the sugar until all sugar is dissolved. I top it off to 5 gallons.
Let it cool to 82F.
Add whole jar of yeast, no need to stir.
Put burper on top
Let sit for 3-4 weeks at room temperature
After this time, most of the sediment sinks to the bottom. I then siphon the top off, avoiding the sediment and run it through my reflux still.

For the first 3-4 hours of fermentation, quite a head is produced on top of the wash. The burper is bubbling an almost steady stream of bubbles. After four hours, it quiets down a bit and goes pretty steady for the next 36 hours or so.

With this recipe, I've never had a batch go bad and I've always had good alcohol yields 16-19%. One of my favourite drinks is my "rye." I take the alcohol and cut it (it typically runs out of the still at 92-94% alcohol) 50/50 with water. I then fill a forty ounce bottle and put in four tablespoons of toasted oak chips. I let it sit for 24 hours, stir the contents and then filter out the chips. It isn't true rye whiskey, but it does the trick for now. Shortly, I'm going to try a real rye mash and see how that works out for me. If anyone has any questions or comments, let me know.

[rad14701]

Where are your yeast nutrients...??? Are you assuming that you can omit them due to the shear amount of bakers yeast you're pitching...??? You're not going to ferment to 17.3% ABV (4.5G) or 15.5% ABV (5G), based on calculations from the parent site, without nutrients... Brown sugar would contain some nutrients but white sugar won't...

[new_moonshiner]

was wondering the same thing ..

[swishy]

Honestly, I'm not sure about nutrients and how all that works...yet. I'm reading up on it. As far as the recipe, that's how it works, no BS. A friend actually got me started on it and I got the recipe from him. He's been doing the same recipe for over 10 years now (five when I started). If left long enough, the contents inthe carboy come as clear as water. Basically, it's wine, but at an alcohol content of 16%-19%. I haven't checked the actual content for a long time, but I know that out of every run I get about 1 3/4 40 oz bottles at about 93%.

[rad14701]

I think you need to check your wash before and after fermenting with a hydrometer because I think most of us here would be amazed if you could even reach over 14% with bakers yeast and no nutrients in a straight sugar wash... Most ferments would end up stuck with your recipe and wouldn't really be finished after 3-4 weeks... Cleared, yes... Done, no... That's why you don't see a recipe like that in our Tried and True recipe section and why there are so many threads regarding stuck ferments...

How are you coming up with your wash ABV estimates...??? In reality you should be getting more finished product at a higher final ABV which is leading me to believe that your figures aren't accurate...

[Freedave]

hey swishey, welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing the recipe.
don't be put off by the critical analysis of the recipe, at least you know that people are reading, paying attention and interested in what you post here. just know that nothing gets through without close scrutiny. that we know everyone is getting good info.

[swishy]

You know, I wondered why I didn't see this type of recipe in the Tried and True. I don't even have a hydrometer anymore. I dropped mine years ago and haven't replaced it. At the beginning when I was just starting out, those are the numbers I was getting. Maybe I had a crap hydrometer, maybe I was reading it wrong, I'm not sure. But I can tell you that I am getting the finished bottle amounts. That I know for sure.

Why not try it? It's only about $10.00 for all the ingredients. That way you can see for yourselves. Like I've said, I've never had a problem and have had good yields every time.

And thanks freedave. I understand the questions and criticism, no problem. I'll answer whatever questions I can and say, "I don't know" if I'm not sure.

[rad14701]

swishy, the point I've been trying to make is that people "have" been trying it and running into problems... That's why it's so surprising that the recipe is actually working efficiently for you... Have a read in the recipe development and Tried and True recipes forums, as well as the parent site and you see why I'm skeptical...

I think you can do better and it's not good practice to try steering people in the wrong direction... Nutrients will allow the yeast to survive a bit longer and will therefore allow more of the sugar to be converted to ethanol... They will also make the ferment finish sooner...

While it works for you, that's fine - but don't expect everyone here, with many many years of collective experience, to believe that your recipe should be tried... All we'll end up with is a bunch of disappointed and disillusioned new members who can't figure out why something that sounds to good to be true - isn't... Experienced members already know better...

I'm not singling you out here... I just think you need to read up before attempting to hand out advice, by way of recipe or otherwise... You'll be glad you did in the long run... We generally suggest reading the parent site, end to end, at least three times... HERE is a good place to check before starting your read...

[eternalfrost]

i tried that when i was first starting out just white sugar and water. and it didnt work at all...

the sugar wash i use now works great an is mostly like yours, just a few extra things that really give it the kick it needs. add a small can of tomato paste, a pinch of Epsom salt, a b-vitamin, and a teapoon or two of DAP or even standard houseplant fertilizer. only need to use a packet or two of yeast, surely not an entire jar, and it will ferment out in about a week

this is a bit of a mix between the main two sugar recipes in the tried and true section and it works quite well for me.

i would also suggest aiming for only 10-15% final abv. you will get much faster ferments and much less nasty byproducts made

[punkin]

Seems a bit tough, the guy said he's been doing it successfully for five years and you're telling him to read stuff

There's nothing wrong with learning from reading, but it ain't the be all and end all.
practical experience is a good teacher as well, special five years of demo's.


Theguy's just sharing a recipe he's happy with same as we all do. nothing wrong with that.

[rad14701]

The guy's just sharing a recipe he's happy with same as we all do. nothing wrong with that.

There's not - if he's the only one who will have to explain to people why their attempts fail... Unfortunately, these forums don't work that way and all of us will end up having to field the questions of those who have problems... Experience and judgment are two altogether different things...

[punkin]

The guy's just sharing a recipe he's happy with same as we all do. nothing wrong with that.

There's not - if he's the only one who will have to explain to people why their attempts fail... Unfortunately, these forums don't work that way and all of us will end up having to field the questions of those who have problems... Experience and judgment are two altogether different things...

Well if you think the forum members (including new members) are gunna pick the single recipe from a guy with one or two posts over the multitiude of posts reccommending the sugar washes in tried and true. And you believe you are charged with the responsibility of alerting all and sundry as to the chances that there may be failure, and mopping up the tears after the terrible catastrophy of a stuck wash that can be rectified with the addition of a few nutrients, then i don't blame you.

After all, you're the one up al night babysitting the newbs with your kind words of wisdom and rectifying their problems

[rad14701]

Yup... And also trying to nip problems in the bud... I'm not arguing with anyone, just being helpful, whether it comes across that way or not... Re-read all that I've written, with an open mind and it should be obvious... Don't put inflection where it isn't...

It's common knowledge all across the internet, based on practical application, that sugar, water, and yeast is not an effective recipe... Much better to point someone in the right direction than to cheer them on into impending failure...

[Dnderhead]

I thank it mite make a big difference on water, as you know some water will grow nothing. others will grow algae, duck weed and others.
try taking some out of a stream that runs threw a Pasture and see. you can just leave it sit and all kinds of stuff will start to grow.organic
mater , nitrogen, phosphates from run off etc.

[swishy]

rad147601, I appreciate your crtiticism. To answer your question about reading, I have read ALOT on this site for a long time before I joined. The reason why I joined is obvious. When I started in this hobby over 5 years ago, this is one of the first places I went to. After five years of doing the same mash, I want to try a wheat vodka and real rye whiskey. In order to ask the questions that reading hasn't been able to answer, I joined. In addition to asking questions, primarily, I'm here to learn and share my experiences. They are not vast or varied, but they are learned experiences none the less. And that is one of the primary reasons why I added this recipe on here. There are four of us that use this exact recipe with no problems. I am having a hard time understanding why others are having so many problems when I (we) haven't had any. So I thought I'd add my (our) recipe that we haven't had the problems with. I'm not offering advice or trying to steer people in the wrong direction. I don't have the knowledge to do that like some of the others on here.

I guess the point of a forum and posting is this; if after reading all of this, someone wants to try the recipe, then they can. They've read my side and the skeptical side. Let them make their minds up for themselves.

And here's where I have the red face . I just did the math. For some reason, I thought a 40oz bottle was 1.75L that would make 3.5L per 20L mash which equals: 17.5%.

I just realized that a 40oz bottle is 1.14L which equals 2.28L per 20L of mash which gives an ABV of: 11.4%.

Sound more realistic? My apologies on the numbers. What I do know is that we all consistently get 2 - 40oz bottles of 93% per 5g carboy.

[rad14701]

Yeah, those figures sound a bit better, swishy... Again, the point I've been trying to make, and was pointed out by eternalfrost is that you can do better with far less yeast and just a small amount of nutrients... You don't need a thermonuclear device to kill a fly... The nutrients will help the yeast to reproduce on their own rather than just hitting with a heavy dose because they don't have nutrients to support self-propagation... In my area, at least, I can get nutrients cheaper than yeast... I will agree with Dnderhead that you might be getting lucking and may have more natural minerals in your water than most, but your revised numbers make it sound more like your heavy dose of yeast is hitting a wall...

[jdonly1]

rad147601, I appreciate your crtiticism. To answer your question about reading, I have read ALOT on this site for a long time before I joined. The reason why I joined is obvious. When I started in this hobby over 5 years ago, this is one of the first places I went to. After five years of doing the same mash, I want to try a wheat vodka and real rye whiskey. In order to ask the questions that reading hasn't been able to answer, I joined. In addition to asking questions, primarily, I'm here to learn and share my experiences. They are not vast or varied, but they are learned experiences none the less. And that is one of the primary reasons why I added this recipe on here. There are four of us that use this exact recipe with no problems. I am having a hard time understanding why others are having so many problems when I (we) haven't had any. So I thought I'd add my (our) recipe that we haven't had the problems with. I'm not offering advice or trying to steer people in the wrong direction. I don't have the knowledge to do that like some of the others on here.

I guess the point of a forum and posting is this; if after reading all of this, someone wants to try the recipe, then they can. They've read my side and the skeptical side. Let them make their minds up for themselves.

And here's where I have the red face . I just did the math. For some reason, I thought a 40oz bottle was 1.75L that would make 3.5L per 20L mash which equals: 17.5%.

I just realized that a 40oz bottle is 1.14L which equals 2.28L per 20L of mash which gives an ABV of: 11.4%.

Sound more realistic? My apologies on the numbers. What I do know is that we all consistently get 2 - 40oz bottles of 93% per 5g carboy.

Dont stress mate,If it works and your happy why change

[Freedave]

so swishy, tell us what kind of water you are using. we want to figure out how you are getting away with out nutrients.

what is your fermenter lined with? what do you stir the wash with?

[swishy]

Yeah, those figures sound a bit better, swishy... Again, the point I've been trying to make, and was pointed out by eternalfrost is that you can do better with far less yeast and just a small amount of nutrients... You don't need a thermonuclear device to kill a fly... The nutrients will help the yeast to reproduce on their own rather than just hitting with a heavy dose because they don't have nutrients to support self-propagation... In my area, at least, I can get nutrients cheaper than yeast... I will agree with Dnderhead that you might be getting lucking and may have more natural minerals in your water than most, but your revised numbers make it sound more like your heavy dose of yeast is hitting a wall...

After some pondering I've come up with this. When I first started out, it was from a friend. He was the one who got me started and told me about this recipe. He told me it was easy, fool-proof and worked every time. So I tried it and it worked out. Since my objective at the time was to obtain cheap and easy ethanol, what else could be better? $10.00 for four 40oz bottles of 50% alcohol? Awesome, especially since here in Canada any hard liquor worth drinking is about $40.00 for ONE 40 oz bottle. For the past five years, I haven't had much time or reason to try anything different. Lately, I have felt the urge to branch out and expand my "hobby." As I mentioned above, I have read about all the problems people have had starting out, like myself, and since my exerience with this batch was a good one, I wanted to share it. No more, no less. I figured that since it worked for me and my group, it should work enough to get some people started, just like me. I never claimed it was the end all, be all of mashes, I just said it was simple.

so swishy, tell us what kind of water you are using. we want to figure out how you are getting away with out nutrients.

what is your fermenter lined with? what do you stir the wash with?

Like Dndr said, the water I use is VERY hard. I have no idea how hard, but if I leave any in a glass and let it dry out, there is a white cake where the water used to be. My fermenter is a plastic 6 gallon carboy with just a regular burper. As far as stirring the wash, I never do. The only stirring I do is when I'm mixing the sugar in with the water. For that, I have a large copper spoon.

[punkin]

What sorta stuff are you interested in doing, swishy?

I can teel you from experience that if you like to drink bourbon, you should look in the Tried and True section and straight away put down a brew of Uncle Jessies simple sour Mash. If you like scotch or irish whiskey a brew of Death Wish wheat Germ, if you like rum Pugirum is simple, straight forward and tasty.


These three should get ya started on the true way to make flavoured spirits, either potstilled or using a detuned raflux to do double run sugar washes with true flavour.

After you got a bit of experience fermenting, distilling and aging these cheaper, easier runs, you may feel like branching into allgrain or fruit washes.

Plenty here to see and learn and we always welcome a potential meber who seems like paying us back with input.

Welcome swishy.






ReckonYouPassedTheGoadTestPunkin

[swishy]

Thanks punkin. My favourite drinks are rye whiskey and wheat vodka. I've actually posted in this forum about it and I'm ready to try both of them. The nearest town to me that I can find the supplies I need is about 140Km away and I'll be going there in a couple of weeks. From there, I'll see what I can come up with. I'm going to try both a rye and wheat mash with EC1118 yeast. I've got the basics down, I've read until I've gone cross-eyed (for real) and all there is left to do is try it. I'm hopeful and looking forward to the challenge.

[eternalfrost]

just as a note about how big a deal even few nutrients can make..

i just started my first ever rum wash a few days ago. i just used 100% dark brown sugar and water, figured the molasses would take care of the nutrients... it was fermenting but going quite slow after a day or two.

i then mixed a tsp of fertilizer, a dash of epsom salt, 1/2 tsp of citric acid, and a multivitamin in some water and tossed it into the fermenter. literally before i could close the lid again the whole thing erupted into bubbling! by the time i got it closed again there was at least 5 times the amount of bubbles coming through the airlock.

[punkin]

just as a note about how big a deal even few nutrients can make..

i just started my first ever rum wash a few days ago. i just used 100% dark brown sugar and water, figured the molasses would take care of the nutrients... it was fermenting but going quite slow after a day or two.

i then mixed a tsp of fertilizer, a dash of epsom salt, 1/2 tsp of citric acid, and a multivitamin in some water and tossed it into the fermenter. literally before i could close the lid again the whole thing erupted into bubbling! by the time i got it closed again there was at least 5 times the amount of bubbles coming through the airlock.

It's the co2 suspended in the wash, mate. Wouldn't matter what you chucked in, it'd foam and go crazy. Something to do with nucleation sites. Not to say nutrients aren't important or they won't improve your wash, just that that is what caused the instant bubbling and foaming.


Swishy, your Rye will work very well with the UJSM method, just make sure it's cracked. That's a very economical method of making fine sipping hooch, and as i said, using it to learn a stack of other stuff about cuts and aging ect, before you mess with allgrain and start risking the investment in time and resources that generates. Learn the basics on the flavoured sugar washes, then progress to allgrain.

[eternalfrost]

It's the co2 suspended in the wash, mate. Wouldn't matter what you chucked in, it'd foam and go crazy. Something to do with nucleation sites. Not to say nutrients aren't important or they won't improve your wash, just that that is what caused the instant bubbling and foaming

your probably right there didnt think about that. but even so it has kept up pretty close to that fast pace until completion. im sure the instant surge was simply that but it definitely gave it big kick in the pants that it needed

[muckanic]

It's common knowledge all across the internet, based on practical application, that sugar, water, and yeast is not an effective recipe... Much better to point someone in the right direction than to cheer them on into impending failure...

Tell that to wineo. Yeast contains everything that yeast needs. The main question is what happens when a big heap of live yeast is used rather than a mix of live and dead. Some of the live cells must presumably get cannibalised (as in autolysis).

[rad14701]

It's common knowledge all across the internet, based on practical application, that sugar, water, and yeast is not an effective recipe... Much better to point someone in the right direction than to cheer them on into impending failure...

Tell that to wineo. Yeast contains everything that yeast needs. The main question is what happens when a big heap of live yeast is used rather than a mix of live and dead. Some of the live cells must presumably get cannibalised (as in autolysis).

Yeah, I think we've covered that as well as the fact that nutrients are cheaper than yeast - at least in my area...

[pintoshine]

the fact that nutrients are cheaper than yeast - at least in my area...

The way around that is to cook the dead yeast from a previous fermentation with nutrients. That way you get the most nutrient bang. The proteins released from boiled yeast are excellent. There are no nutrients that supply the necessary amino acids that are tied up in yeast. Pugi calls this a Yeast Bomb for good reason. When I start a new or large fermentation I buy the 1K bags of active dry yeast to boil. This is usually less than US$3.

[eternalfrost]

never thought about the nutrient content of dead yeast...learn something new every day around here

is it necessary to boil or would you get similar benefits doing a "UJSM-esque" style of recycled continuous washes?

when you say you boil it, do you just take the last sludgy bit left in the bottom of the fermenter, boil it, and add it to the next batch?

[rad14701]

True, dead yeast is a good nutrient... I had intended to save the yeast sediment from my last batches but accidentally dumped them rather than saving... In light of that I was going to boil some fresh yeast but may go the alternate nutrient route unless I make a starter batch on a stir plate and boil that up instead...

Everything I've read on autolysis indicates that it doesn't happen rapidly enough to be effective in fast ferments, hence my position on nutrients over massive doses of yeast - unless brute force fermentation is the intended plan...

[pintoshine]

I rack my washes and mashes but I never let them clear. I have in the past but since I am more a pot stiller I was looking from lots of flavor and the residual yeast adds to that.
So if you add spent wash back to your new fermentation you get it for free.
If you are the sort that allows it to sit for weeks and clear then yes you could use the lees. The mostly water tight shell on a yeast cell requires rupturing to get the inside parts out. Centrifuging is one method but boiling is easier. you end up with hulls and amino acids. Yeast are an odd sort that is not necessarily like a plant cell or an animal cell. fungi are strange that way.
When I make a yeast bomb I put a small amount of wash in a pan, add yeast and nutrients and cook for about 15 to 30 minutes. Then it goes into a cold sugar sugar wash if I am using HFCS or an inverted sugar wash if I am making cane or beet sugar wash.
Usually with cane or beet sugar I cook the sugar with the nutrients and acid to get the yeast nutrients and the sugar inversion. Yeast creates invertase but it ferments so much faster if it doesn't have to.
I am used to 1.085 washes finishing to dry in 6 to 7 days. If I use molasses and add a yeast bomb, the fermentation is done in as little as 3 days.
Maybe I should bump my topic on sugar.